Helpful feedback vs Creative hijacking

[Jmanchu]

One of my stories a commenter called me out because the characters ended up doing anal fairly quickly. My first thought was to say, well they did, get over it.
But then I thought it over a little more and realized, they were right, it didn't really flow well. The reason I had done it was the MMC was written with someone in mind and I was writing to his kink.

Yeah, sometimes commenters can be a real... pain in the ass, huh. Eh? Eh? *nudges*
Sorry bout that. Yeah, that could be true, but also sometimes, nothing wrong with a spontaneous kinky quickie.

 

[DarkCosmos]

I try to see it in two ways when I deal with any feedback.

First with good feedback, exactly as you say, if it's clear, and it gives you ideas on how you could either improve or have something interesting to do next time as food for though, whether next draft or next story. All gucci.

Sometimes it's good feedback but it can be not what you're going for in the scope of your story, or what you really want to write. Fine too. Sometimes they'll be like "ooo! What if you did this idea I just came up with!?" or "I like that but... I have THIS specific idea where you should take it instead! I think it's better!" If it works, and it sounds cool, that's gucci too. But it's not necessary everytime. It's my story, right?

But when people are like that-- even the more "overzealous" ones that really, really want you to do this instead-- what it really means is "your story is so cool it really inspired me to get my imagination and excitement going! It's so cool to be a part of this process, even as a reader of your draft/published piece!" Even if sometimes, some of them not always the most smooth with it. Or get a little too insistent on what they want to see(possibly trying to hijack it whether they mean to or not). I just take it like it is. Excitement or engagement. Whether or not I take any of their ideas? Up to me. Either way, I learned quick to take it as flattery, even when sometimes a reader tries to hijack it. Know what I mean?

But unhelpful feedback? Just putdowns or unconstructive criticism? If they can't tell me why something is bad aside from "you suck" or that it's "bad" or in your case, just some random snark on questioning your primary language, it's just not worth the effort to waste any energy on it.

They could just be taking it out on you whatever bullshit they're dealing with, they could just be trying to play the Simon Cowell or Gordon Ramsay of literature on you. Some people just want to bring others down or just play the snob to feel important. Or sand got in their crack when they sat down on their seat that day. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter.

If it's unhelpful,, then i ignore it. Or I might laugh if it's actually a clever zinger. You feel me?

I agree entirely on how suggestions can be uplifting and have a positive spin as well. And I wasn't trying to make it sound like every commenter who does that is instantly a negative Nancy. What I'm talking about specifically is the more insidious and manipulative comments that mask themselves as constructive criticism. It's true, I get mostly unhelpful snark on my bad comments, so I guess my comment feed wouldn't be the best example of this. But I've seen comments in other, seemingly newer authors' work that looked like straight-up gaslighting to me.

And yes, I, too, have chuckled at some of the zingers I'll receive. My Organism series was compared to a "derivative Alien rip-off that was essentially Fifty Shades of Ripley." Which actually made me laugh pretty hard.

 

[Jmanchu]

I agree entirely on how suggestions can be uplifting and have a positive spin as well. And I wasn't trying to make it sound like every commenter who does that is instantly a negative Nancy. What I'm talking about specifically is the more insidious and manipulative comments that mask themselves as constructive criticism. It's true, I get mostly unhelpful snark on my bad comments, so I guess my comment feed wouldn't be the best example of this. But I've seen comments in other, seemingly newer authors' work that looked like straight-up gaslighting to me.

And yes, I, too, have chuckled at some of the zingers I'll receive. My Organism series was compared to a "derivative Alien rip-off that was essentially Fifty Shades of Ripley." Which actually made me laugh pretty hard.

Okay "Fifty Shades of Ripley" is funny, and a possibly great name for a sexy parody of Alien if someone were to make that. I don't think any snarky comment or feedback I've gotten was that zingy.

Yeah, I got you. I was just elaborating on different kinds of feedback I've heard. But in the end, what I mean was, I think of feedback more like, "Is it helpful", "Is that idea a fun idea? And does it align what I'm trying to do for my story?" "Will that actually help highlight anything I could improve on for my writing craft overall? Or give me fun ideas I could work with or implement in a future story maybe?" If it's none of the above, if it's just genuinely unhelpful, or not what I want at all, then I thank them and keep doing what I want. Or I ignore it if they're just clearly being dicks for dick's sake.

Sometimes people like to play the snob or find problems that aren't there. And if they try to control it or gaslight into issues that aren't there, well, it's my story. Thankfully I haven't dealt with that too much.

I've gotten before something like "Okay, this story is two pages too long." Said story was two pages total. Not quite "Fifty Shades of Ripley" but it did make me chuckle.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Okay "Fifty Shades of Ripley" is funny, and a possibly great name for a sexy parody of Alien if someone were to make that. I don't think any snarky comment or feedback I've gotten was that zingy.

Yeah, I got you. I was just elaborating on different kinds of feedback I've heard. But in the end, what I mean was, I think of feedback more like, "Is it helpful", "Is that idea a fun idea? And does it align what I'm trying to do for my story?" "Will that actually help highlight anything I could improve on for my writing craft overall? Or give me fun ideas I could work with or implement in a future story maybe?" If it's none of the above, if it's just genuinely unhelpful, or not what I want at all, then I thank them and keep doing what I want. Or I ignore it if they're just clearly being dicks for dick's sake.

Sometimes people like to play the snob or find problems that aren't there. And if they try to control it or gaslight into issues that aren't there, well, it's my story. Thankfully I haven't dealt with that too much.

I've gotten before something like "Okay, this story is two pages too long." Said story was two pages total. Not quite "Fifty Shades of Ripley" but it did make me chuckle.

There are some stories that are one page, and they are still two pages too long.

 

[Jmanchu]

There are some stories that are one page, and they are still two pages too long.

Haha, yeah. That is too true. I've read some stories where the best parts are the end. The end, because that means I don't have to read anymore.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I always worry about this whenever I'm beta-reading - will my feedback and advice take the writer away from the story they want to write? I try to hedge everything with caveats and warnings to this effect ("please ignore anything I say that doesn't chime with your vision") but I still worry.

I don't worry about that. I point out inconsistencies and make suggestions. The goal is to create a story that will be well received. I consider everything my beta readers tell me and incorporate some into the story.

 

[DarkCosmos]

I don't worry about that. I point out inconsistencies and make suggestions. The goal is to create a story that will be well received. I consider everything my beta readers tell me and incorporate some into the story.

It really does feel like a balancing act at times, at least for me. Both on the writing side, as well as the beta-reading side, I suppose. (I'm lucky in that my SO acts as my beta reader for most of my work.) You want your stories to be well-received and entertaining to your readers. But at the same time, if you're not enjoying what you're writing, or feel obligated to deviate too far from your original vision, you're less motivated to write it, and the resulting story will be sub-par at best as a result. Trying to find that happy balance is key, I think. Whatever advice or suggestions you choose to incorporate, it should work to elevate your original vision for the story, not change it or alter it in such a way that it becomes unrecognizable to you. I guess that was the original point I was trying to make.

 

[Gamblnluck]

But at the same time, if you're not enjoying what you're writing, or feel obligated to deviate too far from your original vision, you're less motivated to write it, and the resulting story will be sub-par at best as a result.

That is the last thing I would do. I have my story in mind. I might tweak it a bit. On one of my long stories, I had engaged with my beta readers, and had an idea how I was going to pull the MC out of the lava pit he was falling into. I was gratified to see my commenters scramble to tell me how the poor guy had nothing to live for, how a normal man would go postal on all around him. Then when I finished the story, they were happy as was I. I personally like to see justice. And that is what I delivered. I always have an idea in mind. Without a complelling argument, that is where I am headed. However I have been known to deviate to add in some twists.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I've been seeing a lot of posts recently about "how can I do X so people stop posting X about my writing?" and while I'm not discouraging anyone from trying to improve their writing styles and seek out constructive criticism, I will say as someone who's been posting his work fairly regularly to multiple sites for years now, I feels it's important to address an issue I don't often see talked about enough when it comes to commenters.

Are they truly critiquing your work? Or are they trying to take control of it?

This is something I don't often see addressed when someone posts asking for help and advice on their writing. Before you go making drastic changes to your writing style or story, consider asking yourself if the person commenting or sending you feedback may not have their own agenda.

I'm not trying to say all critiques are bad or that the comment section should be a place for thoughtless praise only. But more often than not, I'll find that whenever I see someone posting for help regarding their writing it's usually in direct response to something one of their readers has said. Which can be a slippery slope in my opinion.

I think it's important to distinguish between helpful feedback and those who are just trying to attack/hijack your work. Which is why I want to open a thread of discussion on the subject. To all my fellow authors on lit. What are some examples of good critiques you've recieved versus stuff that's clearly got an agenda behind it? I'll go first.

Good critique: I recently posted the first chapter of a new story where one of the main characters is a Mexican woman who occasionally breaks out into Spanish. I had one commenter post that while they enjoyed my writing they found certain ways I would portray her use of Spanish as a Mexican woman to be inaccurate. To me, these are the sorts of critiques that warrant your attention.

Bad critique: I've had several anons that were clearly just projecting their own insecurities on my writing style. But the one that most prominently sticks out in my mind was the commenter who posted "I can tell by the way you write that English is your second language." That one genuinely bugged me for awhile, I can't lie. But I've since come to the realization that anyone who would just assume that is being completely disingenuous.

But what are some examples you all have? In your opinion what separates good criticism from bad criticism? And how can you personally tell if a commentor on your work is being disingenuous or manipulative in their words or not?

Since this issue has come up a number of times, I think writers don't fully grasp what Lit is. It's something like Amazon.com, except it's free and has a specific theme. The readers have are not come here to help us with good critiques. They are here to consume a product. If they don't like whatever you have for "sale," then they mostly think it's your problem.

I'm sure professional writers, filmmakers, and musicians don't care a bit about the musings on Amazon. They likely never read them. They care about sales, box office receipts, and so forth.

An interesting case I mentioned is when Brian De Palma had to re-cut a movie based on the scribblings of a handful of test audiences. It was the studio who made the demands. The people in the audiences probably had no idea of what was going to be done with their reviews. This has happened with many movies, but Julie Salamon was given permission to watch the entire production process from the beginning. Thus she was able to report on the details of exactly what happened during the editing of the movie.

 

[DarkCosmos]

It's something like Amazon.com, except it's free and has a specific theme.

Exactly. It's "free". Which makes the comparison somewhat arbitrary in my opinion. There's no business aspect to the "product" we're supposedly offering beyond simple focus group testing and honing of one's craft, either in the hopes of pursuing a legitimate writing career at some point, or just as an enthusiastic hobby. In this sense, Lit is less like Amazon and more like a particularly enthusiastic amateur theater group. No one's getting paid in these transactions except Lit itself. Which means commenters and beta-readers have even more reason and motivation to offer constructive criticism than less, in my opinion. Because getting better at writing the stories you, the author, desire to write, and having a safe space to post and share those stories with others, is kinda the whole purpose of this site. Which was my original point to begin with.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Exactly. It's "free". Which makes the comparison somewhat arbitrary in my opinion. There's no business aspect to the "product" we're supposedly offering beyond simple focus group testing and honing of one's craft, either in the hopes of pursuing a legitimate writing career at some point, or just as an enthusiastic hobby. In this sense, Lit is less like Amazon and more like a particularly enthusiastic amateur theater group. No one's getting paid in these transactions except Lit itself. Which means commenters and beta-readers have even more reason and motivation to offer constructive criticism than less, in my opinion. Because getting better at writing the stories you, the author, desire to write, and having a safe space to post and share those stories with others, is kinda the whole purpose of this site. Which was my original point to begin with.

Well, even after seven years here, I can only speculate about what the readers think. That may be the way Lit should work, which may not be the way it does work. See for yourself when you start posting your stories here. That doesn't mean that I've never gotten useful criticism here.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Just remembering, one of the few times I followed someone's advice, the guy wasn't trying to help me. He was quite annoyed that the story didn't go his way. I thought he was wrong and told him so. Then I found his comment by accident a year later, and I wanted to experiment with his idea. I liked the new version better, and replaced the old one with the re-titled new one. He had been anonymous, and I'm sure he never knew what he had ultimately done.