What's the appeal - - Honestly

[PennyThompson]

Could it be...? Is Penny actually attempting to empathize for once, and trying to see things from a different perspective, rather than quickly dismissing anything that doesn't agree with the One Correct Stance™ that everyone must share?


Ah, never mind, it's just all the same old routine of her using rolling-face ridicule in lieu of an actual argument. Disappointing.

I'm not sure why emojis upset you so much

 

[big_cane_sugar]

I'll try to post something relevant to the OP in case it helps.

Feet.

I've never understood why a gentleman would enjoy a lady using her feet, but OTOH I really love kissing a woman's feet. Toe-sucking is not my thing but if she likes it, cool, I can do it. But I think there's something really intimate and tender about the bottom of a woman's feet, not quite as private as certain other parts but still a nice place to rub to help her relax and feel good and a place that only a lover would be allowed to kiss. Also, at least sometimes it's fun for sex to include some humor and flirtation, and since I haven't known any women with huge hangups about their feet it's never gone wrong for me to joke around about something like whether one of their toes is sexier than the others and if the others get jealous, just some silliness to set the mood. Of course eventually one has to move on to the ankles and so on, there's a goal up there somewhere, and as cliterologists (did I try too hard?) I guess we all know all about that, but the feet are a nice place to start.

Is that all there is to a foot fetish or is there something else?

Maybe someone who knows more about this can tell help the rest of us understand.

In case we find ourselves writing it into a story someday.

I actually use feet a lot in stories because symbolism and allusion interest me so much. "Feet of clay" and so on; in some Biblical passages, "feet" are used as a euphemism for genitals.....

 

[yowser]

Interesting takes on this. Perhaps it might be useful to think more about seduction as the main goal of an erotic writer.

If our interest is in attracting (and keeping) readers, then we must master the seductive arts. How?

Brute force is rarely appropriate. Tease works vastly better. Hints, sideways looks, slow dribbling of interest, perhaps with multi-layered interpretations of words.

Small. Seduction is a lifted eyebrow at the right moment, not so much a brazen presentation of a shapely quad (although that might be perfect at the just the right moment.) Little details that must be noticed, then ruminated on, perhaps with some ambiguity present.

Guessing. What did that smile really mean? How are the emotions of the characters (or sometimes just main character) being portrayed?

A good seductive story, for me, involves a writer who has an interest in me, the reader, and treats me respectfully while luring me along. The seductive story doesn't begin with a bang, but promises some fireworks somewhere along the line. I like it best when my interest is pulled along, little bit by little bit (but for godsakes don't make it take years, there are 'ruined' seductions that take so long that me, the reader gives up hope that ignition will ever occur.) I want to know that by the end something good happens, that I care about the folks involved.

Make me pant. Make me yearn. Make me aware that you do indeed care about me, the reader, and want our mutual enjoyments in the tale to be special, satisfying, triumphant.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I'm not sure why emojis upset you so much

They don’t support them on AOL.

 

[onehitwanda]

They don’t support them on AOL.

Jesus, Em, buy the lad a drink before you murder him, will you?

Edit: There's blood on my floor, Em. Blood. On my FLOOR! It never comes out of the parquet, I've told you this! Use a tarp, for God's sake!

 

[SimonDoom]

To me, the contemporary criticism of "Baby It's Cold Outside" as "rapey" is a perfect illustration of how ridiculous modern woke discourse has become. The song is about seduction, playfulness. It's a humorous, playful take on an aspect of male-female relations that's real, and fun. It's not about rape. I think in some ways we've lost our minds. There's a narrow, authoritarian quality to the way many people think now, that does not allow for subtlety, contradiction, complexity, and, especially humor -- all of which are essential parts of the joy of being human. You MUST conform to the ideology, and you must not say anything that might even be construed as varying from it. Yuck. No thanks. It doesn't represent progress, in my mind.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

^^ No 'W' word, K?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Interesting takes on this. Perhaps it might be useful to think more about seduction as the main goal of an erotic writer.

If our interest is in attracting (and keeping) readers, then we must master the seductive arts. How?

Brute force is rarely appropriate. Tease works vastly better. Hints, sideways looks, slow dribbling of interest, perhaps with multi-layered interpretations of words.

Small. Seduction is a lifted eyebrow at the right moment, not so much a brazen presentation of a shapely quad (although that might be perfect at the just the right moment.) Little details that must be noticed, then ruminated on, perhaps with some ambiguity present.

Guessing. What did that smile really mean? How are the emotions of the characters (or sometimes just main character) being portrayed?

A good seductive story, for me, involves a writer who has an interest in me, the reader, and treats me respectfully while luring me along. The seductive story doesn't begin with a bang, but promises some fireworks somewhere along the line. I like it best when my interest is pulled along, little bit by little bit (but for godsakes don't make it take years, there are 'ruined' seductions that take so long that me, the reader gives up hope that ignition will ever occur.) I want to know that by the end something good happens, that I care about the folks involved.

Make me pant. Make me yearn. Make me aware that you do indeed care about me, the reader, and want our mutual enjoyments in the tale to be special, satisfying, triumphant.

I think something else that has been missed in this discussion is that seduction comes before consent, before the question is even asked.
Seduction is all the things you do to increase the odds that the object of your desire will say "yes".

When you were a kid and were going to ask your parents for something what did you do first? You were on your best behavior, cleaned your room, did your chores without being asked. Why? You were trying to create conditions that made it more likely they would say yes.

 

[EmilyMiller]

To me, the contemporary criticism of "Baby It's Cold Outside" as "rapey" is a perfect illustration of how ridiculous modern woke discourse has become. The song is about seduction, playfulness. It's a humorous, playful take on an aspect of male-female relations that's real, and fun. It's not about rape. I think in some ways we've lost our minds. There's a narrow, authoritarian quality to the way many people think now, that does not allow for subtlety, contradiction, complexity, and, especially humor -- all of which are essential parts of the joy of being human. You MUST conform to the ideology, and you must not say anything that might even be construed as varying from it. Yuck. No thanks. It doesn't represent progress, in my mind.

You know “woke” is a shibboleth, right, Simon?

The song is nothing like rape, and it’s kinda silly to conflate the two. But it is entirely redolent of a long ago time when gender roles were dramatically different. I for one am glad we moved on, but I understand the nostalgic appeal for some. It’s like listening to the radio, right?

 

[HordHolm]

Edit: There's blood on my floor, Em. Blood. On my FLOOR! It never comes out of the parquet, I've told you this! Use a tarp, for God's sake!

Sand it and revarnish. It'll be fine. You might need to lift it up to sand the sides, too, which can be a bit of a pain, but with a little effort nobody will ever know. That's what my wife says, anyway...

 

[MillieDynamite]

Evil characters, like evil people in the RW, are bad, bad people. However, in writing, they are more interesting to create and it's more fun than writing goody-two-shoes. Especially more fun when Mr Evil MacMann destroys Miss Lanna Goody-Two-Shoes, and then later Lanna gets her revenge.

 

[SimonDoom]

You know “woke” is a shibboleth, right, Simon?

So what? It IS a real thing, and the conversation I've heard about this song, here and elsewhere, is proof of it. I think it's appropriate to call it out for what it is.

The song is nothing like rape, and it’s kinda silly to conflate the two. But it is entirely redolent of a long ago time when gender roles were dramatically different. I for one am glad we moved on, but I understand the nostalgic appeal for some. It’s like listening to the radio, right?

I'm not convinced gender roles are as different now as you suggest they are. To the extent there's been change, I think it's mostly been positive change, but I don't agree with the desire some have to purge all traces of the past -- which IS a real thing.

 

[TheLobster]

Jesus, Em, buy the lad a drink before you murder him, will you?

Oh, don’t worry, I’m hardly in any danger. High school isn’t that far in the past for me that I wouldn’t know how to deal with a coterie of mean girls buzzing around their queen bee.

The method is simple, by the way: deny them the social power they try to usurp by not giving them the attention they so clearly crave. They’ll leave you alone quickly enough.

 

[EmilyMiller]

So what? It IS a real thing, and the conversation I've heard about this song, here and elsewhere, is proof of it. I think it's appropriate to call it out for what it is.

Using “woke” how you did is most definitely a shibboleth. No two ways about it.

I'm not convinced gender roles are as different now as you suggest they are. To the extent there's been change, I think it's mostly been positive change, but I don't agree with the desire some have to purge all traces of the past -- which IS a real thing.

Now that’s putting words in my mouth. When did I say anything about purging the past. If people want to be nostalgic, that’s fine.

Then who needs nostalgia when we are bringing back the good old days of high infant mortality and science being equated with witchcraft?

 

[AG31]

And I don't disagree with @NuclearFairy very often. I am several decades older than her, so it is not generational, I don't think.

To me, that song feeds the belief by too many that when a woman says no, she actually means try harder. The most famous recording of that (Dean Martin?) was very playful, but the words really bother me. I think songs like this (and especially this one) help young men justify thinking with their balls and never accepting no as an answer.

I got in a long tirade in another thread a month or so ago about an artist's responsibility with their work. To me, this one crosses that line. And it is not close. But I am going to drop off this now before I blow gasket.

Sorry you're dropping it.
I find the discussion about the song very fructuous. For you it crosses the line. For me it defines the line. The playful attitude of the female is critical. And it's been there in every rendition I've heard. Or maybe I've just injected it. This discussion does highlight, for me, the problem that young men face. Because some women (for sure... I can vouch for this), like this sort of interaction.

 

[crookedletter]

To me, the contemporary criticism of "Baby It's Cold Outside" as "rapey" is a perfect illustration of how ridiculous modern woke discourse has become. The song is about seduction, playfulness. It's a humorous, playful take on an aspect of male-female relations that's real, and fun. It's not about rape. I think in some ways we've lost our minds. There's a narrow, authoritarian quality to the way many people think now, that does not allow for subtlety, contradiction, complexity, and, especially humor -- all of which are essential parts of the joy of being human. You MUST conform to the ideology, and you must not say anything that might even be construed as varying from it. Yuck. No thanks. It doesn't represent progress, in my mind.

I don't disagree as regards that particular song, or some perhaps overcorrection and overpolicing of The Shibboleth. But I think it's worthwhile to consider that the retroactive judgment of that song --among other things -- came along with a general reckoning of a long held status quo, in which society tolerated men behaving badly at the expense of women's safety.

There's always been sort of an archetype in entertainment, the rakish male character who doesn't take no for an answer. He's usually charming and attractive and ultimately the female lead falls hard for him, so everything's okay, everyone consents. But when you're trying to find the root cause of a trend in society where a shockingly large number of men feel they can wave aside women's protestations, that their persistence entitles them to something, it makes sense to me to start to put these old depictions of gender relations under the microscope.

I'm not making the claim that entertainment is to blame, or that there's something wrong with that particular song or that particular character archetype. I'm just saying these things don't exist in a vacuum. In a perfect world no one would have a problem with some good fun humor that addresses these dynamics. But the world we live in is far from perfect.

 

[PennyThompson]

To me, the contemporary criticism of "Baby It's Cold Outside" as "rapey" is a perfect illustration of how ridiculous modern woke discourse has become. The song is about seduction, playfulness. It's a humorous, playful take on an aspect of male-female relations that's real, and fun. It's not about rape. I think in some ways we've lost our minds. There's a narrow, authoritarian quality to the way many people think now, that does not allow for subtlety, contradiction, complexity, and, especially humor -- all of which are essential parts of the joy of being human. You MUST conform to the ideology, and you must not say anything that might even be construed as varying from it. Yuck. No thanks. It doesn't represent progress, in my mind.

There have actually been some really interesting, nuanced analyses of this song, for what it's worth! I like
End the War on ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside’! It’s Feminist — Really (William, 2018) which does an excellent job of putting it into its 1949 context.

No, it's not about roofies or rape. Yes, it's about how gender norms of the time made it hard for a woman to just say that she was DTF To modern sensibilities it comes off as kind of creepy, because social norms change over time!

I'm addicted to The Gilded Age TV show, and can enjoy its drama and aesthetic while recognizing that the social structures in place in 1890 were stupid and bad. It's entirely possible to enjoy something within its context without having to defend parts that might not have aged well. It's also possible to evaluate something as a whole and decide that it's no longer worth honoring or respecting!

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Then who needs nostalgia when we are bringing back the good old days of high infant mortality and science being equated with witchcraft?

And here we go with nonsensical hyperbole instead of addressing the point that was being made.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Often, in the good old days, white women were slaves of their husbands. Some of those women had it better than others, but the man, more often than not, had control of finances, and she was relegated to looking pretty and keeping her mouth shut. When you write about those days, don't put rose colored glasses on your story. Write the reality, not what should've been. If you choose to write the story in an alternate reality, make sure we understand this is a different universe than our own.

Oh, damnation and hell's bells, I didn't even realize I had a box left to clamber onto. Sorry, thus ends today's sermon from atop Mount Tide.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Sorry you're dropping it.
I find the discussion about the song very fructuous. For you it crosses the line. For me it defines the line. The smi playful attitude of the female is critical. And it's been there in every rendition I've heard. Or maybe I've just injected it. This discussion does highlight, for me, the problem that young men face. Because some women (for sure... I can vouch for this), like this sort of interaction.

A large number of women like this sort of interaction, regardless of what a handful of outspoken feminists will try and tell you.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There have actually been some really interesting, nuanced analyses of this song, for what it's worth! I like
End the War on ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside’! It’s Feminist — Really (William, 2018) which does an excellent job of putting it into its 1949 context.

No, it's not about roofies or rape. Yes, it's about how gender norms of the time made it hard for a woman to just say that she was DTF To modern sensibilities it comes off as kind of creepy, because social norms change over time!

I'm addicted to The Gilded Age TV show, and can enjoy its drama and aesthetic while recognizing that the social structures in place in 1890 were stupid and bad. It's entirely possible to enjoy something within its context without having to defend parts that might not have aged well. It's also possible to evaluate something as a whole and decide that it's no longer worth honoring or respecting!

Good point, but I will disagree with the idea that "modern sensibilities" are the issue, rather than the sensibilities of a small, vocal group that doesn't represent society as a whole.

It's like the current Sydney Sweeney kerfuffle. A small group of people think having an attractive woman model clothes is some sort of Nazi dog whistle, and are very vocal about it.
Everyone else realizes they're being ridiculous.

 

[iwatchus]

I was trying to stay out of this, but I am weak. Forgive me.

My read on the lyrics is that is about a woman is being pushed to be in a situation where she is likely to do something she believes she should not be doing.

It is certainly not about roofies. It predates that as a predominant thought. (I do too.)

It is not about rape by any legal definition, even the stricter legal definitions now.

But the woman is repeatedly being pressured into a situation she says she does not want to be in. I don't know how anyone can read those lyrics and see anything else. Part of her may want it to happen. But she knows it should not and she has said so. Why is that not end of story?

I would hope everyone can we see we have a societal problem of men thinking they know what a woman is thinking to the point of "No, what you mean to say is ..." is almost a trope. Encouraging men to think that women really mean that they want sex when they say no is an invitation to more rapes. It has to. I have to believe that anyone who doesn't see that is living in a delusional world.

We have the opportunity to write about worlds where men only push back when women want that push back. That can be wonderful. Sometimes we may write something darker for many reasons. I wrote an assault scene early in my first series. It was a hard scene to deal with (and those were not tears of joy when I wrote that). But it was a reality I wanted to confront. (It was notably punished in the ratings, but I don't care. It was the right thing to write.)

I will take a deep breath and try harder to stay away. I am sorry to those who see this differently. I just cannot read those lyrics and see any other interpretation.

 

[alohadave]

So what? It IS a real thing, and the conversation I've heard about this song, here and elsewhere, is proof of it. I think it's appropriate to call it out for what it is.

It's no different than political correctness or any other effort to treat people with dignity.

It started out as a sincere effort, then people who oppose it or think it's stupid co-opted it to mean absolutely nothing by applying it to everything and everyone they hate.

Thinking that the song is kind of rapey to current morals is society changing and ideas of acceptable/appropriate behavior have shifted.

If you like it, enjoy it. However other people do not like it and they have the right to speak their mind. Don't like what they say, leave the spaces where they are speaking.

 

[MillieDynamite]

The song was also performed in reverse, with the woman, whose name escapes me, pressuring the man (Red Skelton, I believe) to stay because, "Baby, it's cold outside." Does that make it more or less acceptable in today's world?

My point being, it's a product of its time, not ours.

I was trying to stay out of this, but I am weak. Forgive me.

My read on the lyrics is that is about a woman is being pushed to be in a situation where she is likely to do something she believes she should not be doing.

It is certainly not about roofies. It predates that as a predominant thought. (I do too.)

It is not about rape by any legal definition, even the stricter legal definitions now.

But the woman is repeatedly being pressured into a situation she says she does not want to be in. I don't know how anyone can read those lyrics and see anything else. Part of her may want it to happen. But she knows it should not and she has said so. Why is that not end of story?

I would hope everyone can we see we have a societal problem of men thinking they know what a woman is thinking to the point of "No, what you mean to say is ..." is almost a trope. Encouraging men to think that women really mean that they want sex when they say no is an invitation to more rapes. It has to. I have to believe that anyone who doesn't see that is living in a delusional world.

We have the opportunity to write about worlds where men only push back when women want that push back. That can be wonderful. Sometimes we may write something darker for many reasons. I wrote an assault scene early in my first series. It was a hard scene to deal with (and those were not tears of joy when I wrote that). But it was a reality I wanted to confront. (It was notably punished in the ratings, but I don't care. It was the right thing to write.)

I will take a deep breath and try harder to stay away. I am sorry to those who see this differently. I just cannot read those lyrics and see any other interpretation.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I was trying to stay out of this, but I am weak. Forgive me.

My read on the lyrics is that is about a woman is being pushed to be in a situation where she is likely to do something she believes she should not be doing.

It is certainly not about roofies. It predates that as a predominant thought. (I do too.)

It is not about rape by any legal definition, even the stricter legal definitions now.

But the woman is repeatedly being pressured into a situation she says she does not want to be in. I don't know how anyone can read those lyrics and see anything else. Part of her may want it to happen. But she knows it should not and she has said so. Why is that not end of story?

I would hope everyone can we see we have a societal problem of men thinking they know what a woman is thinking to the point of "No, what you mean to say is ..." is almost a trope. Encouraging men to think that women really mean that they want sex when they say no is an invitation to more rapes. It has to. I have to believe that anyone who doesn't see that is living in a delusional world.

We have the opportunity to write about worlds where men only push back when women want that push back. That can be wonderful. Sometimes we may write something darker for many reasons. I wrote an assault scene early in my first series. It was a hard scene to deal with (and those were not tears of joy when I wrote that). But it was a reality I wanted to confront. (It was notably punished in the ratings, but I don't care. It was the right thing to write.)

I will take a deep breath and try harder to stay away. I am sorry to those who see this differently. I just cannot read those lyrics and see any other interpretation.

It's worth noting that you say, "when I read those words".
You lose the tone, the inflection and so much of the nuance when we go from thr spoken word to the written.

There was a great bit in an old sitcom where two of the characters finally get together after a bunch of "will they or won't they."
They start kissing passionately and the FMC says," No........Don't.......Stop....."
The MMC pulls away and apologizes.
The FMC response is, "what are you doing, I said don't stop!"