Writing for the approbation of other authors

[Gamblnluck]

I waited until I had an opportunity to go back through all the roughly 690 comments on my various stories before commenting here, because I could not remember ever getting any feedback that was recognizable as being from another author here. Nada. Zilch.

Really? I've had feedback from authors who post in that specific category.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Reader, writer, writers who read, its all the same to me

So if Emily, who we all know you more than respect, said your story is crap, that wouldn't hurt? Or conversely if she said "You didn't give me an advance read on this one. It was wonderful! But... could have been better if you'd....' You don't think that has weight? Might not ever happen but if it did....

 

[MK_Whimsy]

I have a few things to say about this. One, I like thoughtful comments from anyone, writer and non-writer alike. Two, I just learned what "approbation" means.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I'm gonna say this. I doubt I will ever improve my writing. I am not going to get more concise, hit more eloquent descriptions or whatever some authors say is better. To me the goal is to tell a story. That is the goal and is the subject of a different thread.

 

[Djmac1031]

So if Emily, who we all know you more than respect, said your story is crap, that wouldn't hurt?

@EmilyMiller wouldn't call my story "crap." She'd tell me it wasn't that good and explain her thoughts on why, and offer constructive criticism to help improve it.

Or conversely if she said "You didn't give me an advance read on this one. It was wonderful! But... could have been better if you'd....' You don't think that has weight?

Of course it has weight. Because she's more than JUST another author here, she's a friend.

And yes id put more thought into her saying "it could have been better if" than from some Anon reader, but we were talking about praise from others, not necessarily criticism.

 

[Gamblnluck]

@EmilyMiller wouldn't call my story "crap." She'd tell me it wasn't that good and explain her thoughts on why, and offer constructive criticism to help improve it.



Of course it has weight. Because she's more than JUST another author here, she's a friend.

And yes id put more thought into her saying "it could have been better if" than from some Anon reader, but we were talking about praise from others, not necessarily criticism.

And kinda the point of whole thread. We have those whose opinions we respect above others. Some of them are friends. Some are other authors whose opinions we respect. Often we give them more weight BECAUSE we like their work.

 

[lovecraft68]

Nope. Now a few authors do get that backslap, but because it is earned.

Earned how is the question? The merit of the actual writing/story or other reasons?

An author getting complimented by another author of course wants to believe that person's opinion matters more and they are discerning but if the other author tells them the story is shit do they still think that?

I'd say pardon the cynicism, but I don't consider it that. I consider it reality. Disingenuous positive or negative views abound.

Makes me think of @MelissaBaby and the "Pony Famous" thread she started.

Are people here forum famous or story famous? One doesn't equate the other. One is putting more weight in what the masses think, the other is what their buddies think.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I just learned what "approbation" means.

Emily ‘I swallowed a thesaurus’ Miller strikes again

 

[Djmac1031]

And kinda the point of whole thread. We have those whose opinions we respect above others. Some of them are friends. Some are other authors whose opinions we respect. Often we give them more weight BECAUSE we like their work.

Fair point.

My initial comment addressed compliments. But considering the original post more closely and taking your comments into consideration, I suppose that YES, I take the CRITICISM from a fellow writer I respect more seriously than from a random reader or a random writer I'm unfamiliar with.

Although of course it depends on the criticism itself. if its constructive and helpful even while pointing out flaws in my writing, I'm open to taking that criticism under advisement. No matter who offered it.

Just because someone is Anonymous doesn't mean they might not have a valid point, and just because someone is a writer doesn't mean their criticism is automatically well founded or offered in a constructive manner.

 

[EmilyMiller]

@EmilyMiller wouldn't call my story "crap." She'd tell me it wasn't that good and explain her thoughts on why, and offer constructive criticism to help improve it.

I wonder if people have any social skills at all. I’m fucking ND and I know how to talk to people better than that.

Friendship isn’t saying ‘that’s awesome’ all the time, it’s helping to improve things. And you do it in a respectful and positive manner. And when @Djmac1031 tells me that something I’ve written is weak, or makes no sense, or might be better another way, I don’t feel hurt, I feel he wants to help.

I get different people to look at my work. I’ve never felt hurt by them trying to help me to write a better story.

 

[iwatchus]

Friendship isn’t saying ‘that’s awesome’ all the time, it’s helping to improve things. And you do it in a respectful and positive manner. And when @Djmac1031 tells me that something I’ve written is weak, or makes no sense, or might be better another way, I don’t feel hurt, I feel he wants to help.

And this is true not only for friendship, but for mentorship.

I have mentored a lot of people in industry and taught even more students. There is a way to give feedback, both positive and negative. And they are different. I would never call out an employee or a student in front of their peers. Or only under very rare circumstances. But people need to understand that you are giving them honest feedback, not just fluff.

There are obvious equivalents in this community.

 

[XerXesXu]

And kinda the point of whole thread. We have those whose opinions we respect above others. Some of them are friends. Some are other authors whose opinions we respect. Often we give them more weight BECAUSE we like their work.

You must be new here. She wasn't asking about 'opinions', she was asking about 'compliments'; there's a history and context to her OP.

 

[EmilyMiller]

And this is true not only for friendship, but for mentorship.

I have mentored a lot of people in industry and taught even more students. There is a way to give feedback, both positive and negative. And they are different. I would never call out an employee or a student in front of their peers. Or only under very rare circumstances. But people need to understand that you are giving them honest feedback, not just fluff.

There are obvious equivalents in this community.

It’s not very friendly to let someone who has asked for your input put out stuff that could be easily improved (by them, I hasten to add).

As @Djmac1031 has said, how it often goes when he reads my drafts is.

D: “I think X is weak / confusing / awkward why not try Y?”

E: “Yeah I agree X is poor, but my fix is Z, what do you think?”

D: “Yeah that works too.”

Or sometimes:

D: “Z fixed one thing wrong with X, but not the other.”

E: “Shit! You’re right. How about this Y/Z hybrid thing, with a bit of W thrown in”

D:

 

[NightPorter]

I would hope that other authors would be more objective in their criticism or compliments than average readers. Not just telling you that your story sucks because it wasn't exactly what they wanted and giving you a 1 star or telling you that it's a master piece (its probably not) because it hit all the buttons of their particular kink. I've gotten both in my time on lit.

 

[WCSGarland]

I'm one of them who has said that. And I have to admit, I have the same problem. I happen to love your work. You tell a great, detailed story. It hits. Then at the end it feels like you want more of the story. Or you want a little more of 'something' to end it right. Like I said, I get that often in my own stories.
A comedian gives his punchline, and the audience either laughs or it doesn't. For us the audience often wants something more.

I thought I had the perfect ending for my "Slip of the Tongue' story. It was a BTB where a hammer was used on a predator who seduced and impregnated the MC's wife among others. Police investigation had stalled. At the end I had the MC drop the hammer into the sea saying he was not going to be on oil rigs in the future so he could pursue a relationship. I STILL had comments telling me it ended abruptly.

Thank you. I didn't think I was fishing for a compliment, but I'll take any I get gratefully. Maybe you and Tiberius Prime are on the right tack. I hate thinking the readers feel disappointed at the end, but I suppose if they get so invested in the story that it left them hungry for more I should view it as a compliment.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I need to add something...Asking myself the question.
Why do I get a buzz when a writer I admire either compliments, or offers constructive criticism to something I penned....
I had to think about it.
The reason is this...
A writer understands the craft of writing. Understands the amount of hours that go into even a short story. They understand the level of creativity you poured into it. The hours spent researching, and considering...
An anonymous reader may have the same knowledge, but because they're anonymous. It's sometimes hard to grasp their level of understanding.
They may have simply liked it because it ticked one of their boxes... Kink wise. It may have nothing to do with the quality of the writing...

I hold writers to a higher standard... Expect more from them... I don't expect flattery, or gushing praise. I do however have an ego, if their comments are positive. It gives me joy...

That is the reason I get a little extra joy from somebody, who's work I have admired commenting on my stories...

Cagivagurl

 

[Djmac1031]

I need to add something...Asking myself the question.
Why do I get a buzz when a writer I admire either compliments, or offers constructive criticism to something I penned....
I had to think about it.
The reason is this...
A writer understands the craft of writing. Understands the amount of hours that go into even a short story. They understand the level of creativity you poured into it. The hours spent researching, and considering...
An anonymous reader may have the same knowledge, but because they're anonymous. It's sometimes hard to grasp their level of understanding.
They may have simply liked it because it ticked one of their boxes... Kink wise. It may have nothing to do with the quality of the writing...

I hold writers to a higher standard... Expect more from them... I don't expect flattery, or gushing praise. I do however have an ego, if their comments are positive. It gives me joy...

That is the reason I get a little extra joy from somebody, who's work I have admired commenting on my stories...

Cagivagurl

Well said.

My own personal little tack-on to that is while generally yes, I respect the criticism from an author over say, some random reader, my amount of acceptance of that criticism would depend on that author's skill set.

Because frankly I've read plenty of stories by people calling themselves writers that are awful, poorly written pandering.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Because frankly I've read plenty of stories by people calling themselves writers that are awful, poorly written pandering.

I'm getting better...

 

[Areala-chan]

I am "Imposter Syndrome: The Movie: The Game: The Person". I'm continually petrified someone's going to finish one of my stories and think, "Wait a minute, Areala-chan ain't no real writer! She's three Composition Books and a glitter pen wrapped in a gawddamn London Fog coat! I gotta to warn the world!"

If someone comments they like my stuff, and it feels honest, then I get to feel like a real human for a few minutes. If it's another author whose stuff I admire, I get to feel like a real human for a few days. Some people here have carried me along for weeks courtesy of their interactions, and probably had no idea, because for them, it was just another Tuesday.

I fight, constantly, bitterly, with depression. There are times when I write where all I'm doing is trying to shut my brain up, to prove I'm worthy of wielding the word processor, that I've put in my time, that I might actually know what I'm talking about. So if someone says they like my stuff, I can't pretend it doesn't make me feel like I won the lottery for a little while.

But I also don't have the luxury of infinite time, nor do I have the ability to read everyone else that I should be reading. And often when I comment, I do so as anonymous just so the person who gets the comment won't think I'm wanting them to reciprocate. "She only said something nice so I'd read her stuff" is part and parcel of that imposter syndrome. I typically only comment under this name if I've already opened lines of communication elsewhere.

And I'm not too proud to say I've used comments I've gotten on my stories and email conversations I've shared with other creative types who said something nice as tools to talk myself down off of metaphorical ledges before. I will do so again, because the truces my brain declares with me last long enough for me to get used to the silence before the shelling resumes.

Approbation of other authors? Sometimes that's all that keeps me going during the bad times. Far as I'm concerned, we're all candles in the dark, and every so often we get lucky and light somebody else's way home.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Well said.

My own personal little tack-on to that is while generally yes, I respect the criticism from an author over say, some random reader, my amount of acceptance of that criticism would depend on that author's skill set.

Because frankly I've read plenty of stories by people calling themselves writers that are awful, poorly written pandering.

Agree entirely...
I tried to explain by including the word admired...
Meaning, I have to personally appreciate their creations...

 

[Cagivagurl]

I am "Imposter Syndrome: The Movie: The Game: The Person". I'm continually petrified someone's going to finish one of my stories and think, "Wait a minute, Areala-chan ain't no real writer! She's three Composition Books and a glitter pen wrapped in a gawddamn London Fog coat! I gotta to warn the world!"

If someone comments they like my stuff, and it feels honest, then I get to feel like a real human for a few minutes. If it's another author whose stuff I admire, I get to feel like a real human for a few days. Some people here have carried me along for weeks courtesy of their interactions, and probably had no idea, because for them, it was just another Tuesday.

I fight, constantly, bitterly, with depression. There are times when I write where all I'm doing is trying to shut my brain up, to prove I'm worthy of wielding the word processor, that I've put in my time, that I might actually know what I'm talking about. So if someone says they like my stuff, I can't pretend it doesn't make me feel like I won the lottery for a little while.

But I also don't have the luxury of infinite time, nor do I have the ability to read everyone else that I should be reading. And often when I comment, I do so as anonymous just so the person who gets the comment won't think I'm wanting them to reciprocate. "She only said something nice so I'd read her stuff" is part and parcel of that imposter syndrome. I typically only comment under this name if I've already opened lines of communication elsewhere.

And I'm not too proud to say I've used comments I've gotten on my stories and email conversations I've shared with other creative types who said something nice as tools to talk myself down off of metaphorical ledges before. I will do so again, because the truces my brain declares with me last long enough for me to get used to the silence before the shelling resumes.

Approbation of other authors? Sometimes that's all that keeps me going during the bad times. Far as I'm concerned, we're all candles in the dark, and every so often we get lucky and light somebody else's way home.

OMG....
Yes...
Also, I feel for you...
Depression is a terrible bed mate...
More power to you, for being honest an open...
Braver than me...

Cagivagurl

 

[EmilyMiller]

I am "Imposter Syndrome: The Movie: The Game: The Person". I'm continually petrified someone's going to finish one of my stories and think, "Wait a minute, Areala-chan ain't no real writer! She's three Composition Books and a glitter pen wrapped in a gawddamn London Fog coat! I gotta to warn the world!"

If someone comments they like my stuff, and it feels honest, then I get to feel like a real human for a few minutes. If it's another author whose stuff I admire, I get to feel like a real human for a few days. Some people here have carried me along for weeks courtesy of their interactions, and probably had no idea, because for them, it was just another Tuesday.

I fight, constantly, bitterly, with depression. There are times when I write where all I'm doing is trying to shut my brain up, to prove I'm worthy of wielding the word processor, that I've put in my time, that I might actually know what I'm talking about. So if someone says they like my stuff, I can't pretend it doesn't make me feel like I won the lottery for a little while.

But I also don't have the luxury of infinite time, nor do I have the ability to read everyone else that I should be reading. And often when I comment, I do so as anonymous just so the person who gets the comment won't think I'm wanting them to reciprocate. "She only said something nice so I'd read her stuff" is part and parcel of that imposter syndrome. I typically only comment under this name if I've already opened lines of communication elsewhere.

And I'm not too proud to say I've used comments I've gotten on my stories and email conversations I've shared with other creative types who said something nice as tools to talk myself down off of metaphorical ledges before. I will do so again, because the truces my brain declares with me last long enough for me to get used to the silence before the shelling resumes.

Approbation of other authors? Sometimes that's all that keeps me going during the bad times. Far as I'm concerned, we're all candles in the dark, and every so often we get lucky and light somebody else's way home.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think there are two types of writer. Or actually probably a spectrum in between. At one end you have the Dan Browns, wildly popular, laughing all the way to the bank, and I hope living their best lives. At the other end Fydor Dostoevsky. A fraction of the audience of Brown. A troubled life. A not unproblematic portfolio of work, but one of the great chroniclers of the human condition.

Now this is a written porn site, and actually a kinda small little bit of the Internet. We don’t have any writers who are as popular with the masses as Brown. We don’t have any writers with the genius of Dostoevsky.

I’m willing to bet that Brown cares more about what readers think and that Dostoevsky cared more about critics and other authors. Both have a place in the world. I’m not saying which is superior, it’s comparing apples and oranges.

Some write for an audience and mass appeal. Some try to craft something jewel-like, which only ten people appreciate. And some are in between. But what you want to achieve in writing is going to dictate who you listen to and take notice of. It’s pretty simple really.

 

[WCSGarland]

We don’t have any writers with the genius of Dostoevsky.

Ouch

 

[EmilyMiller]

Ouch

It’s not a contraversial statement, surely?