Will The Scotus Declare Race-based Gerrymandering Unconstitutional?

You think it's a good thing for the government to engage in racism to combat racism?

I was told by my criminal law instructor (who at one point became the Public Defender for San Bernardino County) that we don't actually need laws prohibiting racism and all the rest. What we need are people who don't do that sort of thing.

I have yet to meet a Democrat who feels the same way. Ever.
*Raising a hand here, to counter your statement about feeling the same way.*

Unfortunately, not enough of those kinds of people exist in either party, and consequently, laws do exist for that purpose. When that racism is gone, the laws should go away as well.
 
If it were reversed, like it soon will be in Texas, you'll be one of its biggest bashers.
In California, the heavily red parts of the state still do have Republican representation (which of course is as it should be). In Connecticut and Massachusetts, there are no heavily red parts of the state. Now, you do make a good argument for a parliamentary system where parties get a number of seats that matches their share of the vote, but I know you well enough to know you would never want that.
 
It does. That's why you use it but you don't use the entire speech and taking one line without any context is fucked up. I wish you guys would stop focusing on that.
The speech makes the same point, but you don't really care.
 
God knows how much those 'well represented' communities have prospered.............right?
Race/ethnically based redistricting is nothing more that the political equivalent of creating a 'reservation' and anyone that's been to an Indian reservation knows how well that's worked out. Segregation writ large.
 
The speech was about equality, not your demented "equity."
The speech was about striving for a future where race won't matter. We weren't there yet in 1963 and we're still not there yet now. Pretending we already are there - which is essentially what you're calling for - will simply allow the still-existing problem to fester and get worse. Elie Wiesel said it best: "Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented".
 
I didn't say anything about 'equity'. That is a conservative obsession they pulled completely out of the air.
Air??
It’s out of the Trumplikkkan’s butts like? Open Borders.
Equity??? It’s like good Christian attitude plain and simple! They can’t manage that
Try to shoot a gun randomly through a White House see what happens
 
"No Drama Obama" never screamed about anything, certainly not about this.
That is untrue. He was constantly doing so.
And no, he did not "promote ideas that divide people by race"; he simply acknowledged that racial divisions still were a thing, and people like you interpreted it as you state here.
He absolutely did, by promoting the idea that any bad thing that happened to any black ever was because of white people. His "pastor" said "God damn America" and "white people's greed runs a world in need" and he stayed at that church. He called that statement "transformative." He promoted falsehoods like "hands up, don't shoot." He talked about "typical white people." He regularly promoted racial division.
Nonsense. In fact, he even got some heat from the far left for not being far enough from that.
Your statement is nonsense. That he got attacked by the crazies -- which I do not remember happening -- is no proof of anything. The fact is that he did pretend we hadn't made any progress in regard to race, like it was the 1950s and segregation was still in force.

The Justice Department under Bush had won a voter intimidation case against the Philadelphia Black Panthers. Won it. They had already bene found guilty of voter intimidation. It was simply awaiting the penalty phase. Obama and Holder came in and dropped the case. They told attorneys in the Civil Rights Division that it was only to be used for black victims of whites.

Gates was arrested for the "crime" of forgetting his house key, Martin was murdered for walking while Black
Sorry, but those statements are not true. Gates forgot his key, came back after dark, and was trying to get into his house through the window. The cops on patrol saw a man trying to access a house through a window. Of course they were going to intervene. Most of the time, that's a burglar. In this case, it was the homeowner, but they had no way of knowing that. Gates was let go as soon as he was able to show that it was his house.

As for your assertion that Trayvon Martin "was murdered for walking while Black," that is simply not true. Martin was walking through the neighborhood where he didn't live, late at night, in a hoodie, looking into people's houses. That kind of conduct will inevitably raise suspicion.

Zimmerman happened to be the Neighborhood Watch person on duty. He didn't recognize Martin, so he called the cops and reported that there was this young person in a hoodie wandering around looking into everyone's windows. He had no way of knowing Martin was there on visitation with his dad.
After Zimmerman had explained the situation, the officer asked for a description. That's when Zimmerman said "he looks black." The media cut out all the intervening conversation.
I will grant you that maybe Zimmerman was a bit tough in questioning Martin about what he was doing, but instead of simply answering the question, Martin attacked him, at which point Zimmerman fought back and unfortunately, Martin was killed. But he was not just "walking while black." There was reason to be observing him.

I, for one, do not believe for one moment that there's anything he could have done that you would have interpreted as "racial healing".

Sadly, that says a lot about you that isn't good.
as Sean Renaud has already pointed out, you are missing the point of your favorite MLK quote completely

What am I missing? Dr. King was calling for a society in which race didn't matter; your side is promoting a society in which race is central, essential. The quote is quite clear.
No one attacked Clarence Thomas or Ben Carson for being successful.
Sorry, but that's not true.
What we have criticized them for - among other things - is the idea that they made it all on their own by the sweat of their brow.
They made their way out of crippling poverty and segregation. Nobody gave Justice Thomas or Dr. Carson or Herman Cain or Thomas Sowell anything. They got there the way everyone else gets there. They didn't need your "help" and that's why they get attacked.
Thomas also had a rich grandfather who sent him to the best private school Black kids had access to in those days
Thomas grew up in abject poverty in Pin Point, Georgia, rural Georgia, not even speaking English.
And yet if it weren't for white liberals, Justice Thomas would probably be sweeping the floor somewhere.
This is EXACTLY the kind of demeaning, degrading, dehumanizing racist essentialism I'm talking about. Most people know better than that, including Thomas himself, who has spoken about this very idea (which, BTW, is racist as hell.)

Prior to public service, Thomas identified with black nationalism. He learned the ideas of Malcolm X, who correctly said that white liberals are the worst enemies of black people because they pretend to want to help but all they really want is control. SNCC also said as much. James Baldwin said that “It seemed very clear to me that [white liberals] were lying about their motives and were being blackmailed by their guilt… struggling to hold on to what they had acquired."

As Justice Thomas himself has said, "“The only people with whom I’ve had difficulties are white, liberal elites who consider themselves the anointed and us the benighted." That attitude essentializes blacks and demeans them. And it's the view you're expressing here, and that liberal "allies" promote.
But yes, all Black Americans experience racism every day.
So oyu can speak for all blacks and you know what they experience better than they do? Teh idea that all blacks have the same experience is a racist idea.

Do you know what word this defines? "a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities" Becuase that is exactly what your side is saying when you say that "all black people" have any specific experience. It denies agency and individuality of experience, characteristic, or belief.
It wouldn't kill you to ask why she jumped to that conclusion. Could it be because she has been experiencing microaggressions like that all her life and some of them definitely were racially motivated?
Quite possible. That doesn't justify either assuming that the rude action must have been racist or projecting her action onto all white people. To do so is racist.
What you're really displaying here is a classic case of white privilege.
That is a racist statement. Do you mean to tell me that the white people in Appalachia, whom your party hates, are more privileged than, say, the Obamas, or Justice Thomas?

No, our side does not just treat them as members of a group
Another falsehood by you. When you assert that there are experiences that all blacks have or that without your party's help, a Supreme Court Justice "would just be sweeping floors somewhere," when you assert that blacks can't get an ID, that they don't know how to access the internet, when you set aside scholarships and positions only for a given group, asserting they they're "oppressed" when MEMBERS OF THAT GROUP say they are not, then you are treating them not as individuals, but simply as a monolithic group, not as individuals.

https://insights.som.yale.edu/insig...petent-in-interactions-with-african-americans

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/07/are-liberals-racists.php

"Current liberal orthodoxy holds that a person is defined, more than anything else, by his or her skin color. People are mostly members of groups, not individuals; in fact, individualism is explicitly frowned upon. Members of the same racial group are pretty much all alike, and can be generalized about freely."

https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/531386-understanding-black-americans-dont-ask-liberals/

https://unherd.com/2023/01/race-was-invented-by-liberals/

https://yellowstripsdeadarmadillos.org/2021/10/19/why-are-white-liberals-so-obsessed-with-race/
 
Sky, the dog don't hunt. Obama not only didn't claim that any time something bad happened it was the fault of a white person he was far, far too timid. He would never get out and the leader we needed and we see why now. Despite being a coward you remember him as this rabid dog. We were there though.
 
I didn't say anything about 'equity'. That is a conservative obsession they pulled completely out of the air.
Wrong. It's part of your side's view, and it means treating people unequally. We're not the ones who came up with "equity."

What does DEI stand for? You're simply not telling the truth here.
 
Wrong. It's part of your side's view, and it means treating people unequally. We're not the ones who came up with "equity."

What does DEI stand for? You're simply not telling the truth here.
No it has nothing to do with my sides view unless you want to get it really twisted.

Diversity Equity Inclusion

Those are three things that must be taken together and we need them if we are to advance. That doesn't mean everybody ends up in the same place no matter how you slice it.
 
It's the very principle your side of the aisle is selling. "Equity" (i.e., equal outcomes) vs. equality (i.e., treating everyone equally.) According to the woke, treating everyone equally is racist.

Your crew's idea of equity is based on group identities and group results; ours is based on individuals and merit.
 
That is untrue. He was constantly doing so.
I have no doubt you remember it that way. But you can't find a video of it anywhere, now can you?
He absolutely did, by promoting the idea that any bad thing that happened to any black ever was because of white people.
He never once said anything like that, though again I'm sure it sounded that way to you.

His "pastor" said "God damn America" and "white people's greed runs a world in need" and he stayed at that church.
Out of context.
He promoted falsehoods like "hands up, don't shoot."
It's not a falsehood. Ask most any Black man not named Clarence Thomas or Thomas Sowell.
He talked about "typical white people." He regularly promoted racial division.
Examples please, or give it a rest. (Again, what I think is you are simply choosing to remember something this way, when what he really did say was quite different.)
Your statement is nonsense. That he got attacked by the crazies -- which I do not remember happening -- is no proof of anything. The fact is that he did pretend we hadn't made any progress in regard to race, like it was the 1950s and segregation was still in force.
I note without surprise that you haven't got a single example to point to. Again. What you describe here is simply what people like you always say when anyone acknowledges that racism isn't dead yet. (The lefty equivalent is to scream in outrage whenever anyone suggests any progress at all has been made. Obama was neither extreme.)


The Justice Department under Bush had won a voter intimidation case against the Philadelphia Black Panthers. Won it. They had already bene found guilty of voter intimidation. It was simply awaiting the penalty phase. Obama and Holder came in and dropped the case. They told attorneys in the Civil Rights Division that it was only to be used for black victims of whites.
That wasn't official administration policy, it was simply an opinion expressed by one DOJ member. Besides, no one ever came forward to claim they'd been prevented from voting in that case.
Sorry, but those statements are not true. Gates forgot his key, came back after dark, and was trying to get into his house through the window. The cops on patrol saw a man trying to access a house through a window. Of course they were going to intervene. Most of the time, that's a burglar. In this case, it was the homeowner, but they had no way of knowing that. Gates was let go as soon as he was able to show that it was his house.
I said Gates forgot his key, you say my statements "are not true," and your next comment is "Gates forgot his key." Hmmm.
In any event, you're missing the big picture here. There's a reason why the incident struck a chord with Black Americans, and Obama simply acknowledged as much. Lest we forget, he also had Gates and the cop as guests at the White House to talk about it. Hard to imagine a more hands-on effort to improve race relations than that.

As for your assertion that Trayvon Martin "was murdered for walking while Black," that is simply not true. Martin was walking through the neighborhood where he didn't live, late at night, in a hoodie, looking into people's houses. That kind of conduct will inevitably raise suspicion.
No, Martin was not "looking into people's houses". Zimmerman had observed other people doing that, weeks before. He already had a long history of calling the cops on Black men he saw around the apartment complex (which had a high crime rate). Martin was simply walking back to his father's fiancee's apartment. The fundamental question is, all else being equal, would he have ended up dead if he'd been white? We'll never know for certain, but there is reason to believe the answer is yes. Obama simply acknowledged as much and called on Americans to recognize that reality. If that makes you uncomfortable, well, it should.
Zimmerman happened to be the Neighborhood Watch person on duty. He didn't recognize Martin, so he called the cops and reported that there was this young person in a hoodie wandering around looking into everyone's windows. He had no way of knowing Martin was there on visitation with his dad.
Which is no excuse to murder him. The 911 dispatcher told him to stay out of it, not to mention (as I already did above) Zimmerman had a long history of calling the cops on any Black man he didn't recognize.
After Zimmerman had explained the situation, the officer asked for a description. That's when Zimmerman said "he looks black." The media cut out all the intervening conversation.
I will grant you that maybe Zimmerman was a bit tough in questioning Martin about what he was doing, but instead of simply answering the question, Martin attacked him, at which point Zimmerman fought back and unfortunately, Martin was killed. But he was not just "walking while black." There was reason to be observing him.
No, there really wasn't. He hadn't done anything to deserve Zimmerman's suspicion, and Zimmerman had no authority to confront him. And once again, you're looking at this in a vacuum, ignoring the context of decades of Black men being regarded as violent criminals in situations like this. That is probably why Martin was standoffish when confronted by a complete stranger who had no right to accost him in the first place.


What am I missing? Dr. King was calling for a society in which race didn't matter; your side is promoting a society in which race is central, essential. The quote is quite clear.
What you're missing is that King was not saying we should be acting like racism has already been conquered when it hasn't yet. He knew better than anyone, that would only exacerbate the problem.
Sorry, but that's not true.
Again, I suspect you're thinking not of what anyone really said but rather of your interpretation of it. You clearly have a talent for hearing what you want to hear.
They made their way out of crippling poverty and segregation. Nobody gave Justice Thomas or Dr. Carson or Herman Cain or Thomas Sowell anything.
Not true. Except for Sowell (who is quite a bit older) they all benefitted from Affirmative Action, whether they wanted to or not. Justice Thomas also benefitted from his rich grandfather; he did not claw his own way out of poverty.

They got there the way everyone else gets there. They didn't need your "help" and that's why they get attacked.
No, that is not why they get attacked. They get attacked because of their right-wing politics and rank hypocrisy, and for being more than a little bit dishonest with themselves about how they got where they are.
Thomas grew up in abject poverty in Pin Point, Georgia, rural Georgia, not even speaking English.
Until he set his mother's shack on fire, and was taken in by his grandfather, who sent him to a prestigious private school.
Prior to public service, Thomas identified with black nationalism. He learned the ideas of Malcolm X, who correctly said that white liberals are the worst enemies of black people because they pretend to want to help but all they really want is control. SNCC also said as much. James Baldwin said that “It seemed very clear to me that [white liberals] were lying about their motives and were being blackmailed by their guilt… struggling to hold on to what they had acquired."
You should read Malcolm X's biography sometime. It was one of the most eye-opening books I've ever read. And I can tell from your comments here that either you haven't read it, or you missed some very important points he makes in the end.

Now, if you want to argue that some elements of the left - including Black nationalists - have gone too far at times, you'll get no argument from me. But that's no excuse for Clarence Thomas, probably the greatest beneficiary ever of Affirmative Action, to build a career on pulling the ladder up behind him. (And I assure you, we on the left would be just as staunchly opposed to a white judge with the same politics.)
So oyu can speak for all blacks and you know what they experience better than they do? Teh idea that all blacks have the same experience is a racist idea.
No, I can't speak for any blacks. I simply recognize that racism still exists. You are the one choosing to take the word of a tiny number of Black Americans who you know perfectly well are vastly outnumbered.
 
Do you know what word this defines? "a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities" Becuase that is exactly what your side is saying when you say that "all black people" have any specific experience. It denies agency and individuality of experience, characteristic, or belief.
Or it simply recognizes the historical reality that slavery and Jim Crow happened, and we haven't finished cleaning up after them yet.
Quite possible. That doesn't justify either assuming that the rude action must have been racist or projecting her action onto all white people. To do so is racist.
Quite possible. Or maybe she was right and the woman who treated them disrespectfully was in fact a racist. A Black woman is most likely a better judge of that than you or I.
That is a racist statement. Do you mean to tell me that the white people in Appalachia, whom your party hates, are more privileged than, say, the Obamas, or Justice Thomas?
In some ways yes, in others no. Look at it this way: white people in Appalachia (who hate our party, not the other way around) are poor and disadvantaged in any number of ways. Poor Blacks in the inner cities and the rural South have all those disadvantages, plus they have to live with systemic racism.
Another falsehood by you. When you assert that there are experiences that all blacks have or that without your party's help, a Supreme Court Justice "would just be sweeping floors somewhere," when you assert that blacks can't get an ID, that they don't know how to access the internet, when you set aside scholarships and positions only for a given group, asserting they they're "oppressed" when MEMBERS OF THAT GROUP say they are not, then you are treating them not as individuals, but simply as a monolithic group, not as individuals.

They are individuals, but they are also members of a group, and that group most definitely would not have any chance at a seat on the Supreme Court if not for the civil rights reforms of the 1960s. That you can point to four members of that group who believe otherwise means nothing.
 
It's the very principle your side of the aisle is selling. "Equity" (i.e., equal outcomes) vs. equality (i.e., treating everyone equally.) According to the woke, treating everyone equally is racist.

Your crew's idea of equity is based on group identities and group results; ours is based on individuals and merit.

Yes. In very specific scenarios where it is absolutely needed. You want to call us all equally racist fine. I have no interest in that fight. Group identities are very much a thing and that does affect group results. Yours is based on group results. You just pretend otherwise because you've been winning so hard so long that you never question why nobody else is ever considered. When judged purely on scores it doesn't turn out the way it is now. That's by design and you know it.
 
Gerrymandering became a thing when those uppity black folks were given the vote. Districts were re-drawn to cut them out and when Trump demanded of his simps that they give him five more seats they buckled down to do just that.

Now the simps want the FBI to arrest the Dems who defied Trump's order.
 
If gerrymandering could be banned in all states, the Pubs might gain votes. Objecting to gerrymandering only in states run by the opposition is hypocrisy. And payback may be coming with interest. Leaders of parties newly in power generally don't try to end gerrymandering. They use the same tools to punish the other party. Dems doing what they can now to make gerrymandering less severe could reduce the hurt later when they lose their majorities. But that won't happen. Politicians still want the immediate payoff before they move on to lobbying jobs.
 
If gerrymandering could be banned in all states, the Pubs might gain votes. Objecting to gerrymandering only in states run by the opposition is hypocrisy. And payback may be coming with interest. Leaders of parties newly in power generally don't try to end gerrymandering. They use the same tools to punish the other party. Dems doing what they can now to make gerrymandering less severe could reduce the hurt later when they lose their majorities. But that won't happen. Politicians still want the immediate payoff before they move on to lobbying jobs.
I don't care who loses or gains vote from getting rid of gerrymandering. Districts should be drawn to.represent the people.baaed.on the area they live so their representatives represent them.

I am not against increasing the number of house seats to.be more.representative.
 
If gerrymandering could be banned in all states, the Pubs might gain votes. Objecting to gerrymandering only in states run by the opposition is hypocrisy. And payback may be coming with interest. Leaders of parties newly in power generally don't try to end gerrymandering. They use the same tools to punish the other party. Dems doing what they can now to make gerrymandering less severe could reduce the hurt later when they lose their majorities. But that won't happen. Politicians still want the immediate payoff before they move on to lobbying jobs.

To end gerrymandering nationwide Its worth noting yes Democrats did try to end it when they were in power. Now RightGuide who does have expertise I lack, perhaps there is a specific reason why this was a bad idea.

You could of course ban gerrymandering in the strictest sense of the word which is something that favors the party in power. That's very much a thing but outside that you can't just lay a grid down on a state and call it a day. That's not how populations work. Assuming a district should represent a group of people of similar socio-economic status and not geography that doesn't work. Where I live you really could draw three line north and south where west of here is the Latinos. Like if I get lost past a certain street I better have my phone cus I can't ask for directions. You get east of another line and that's where the affluent people are. We don't go to the same schools, shop at the same centers, and for the most part work the same jobs. So how would it make any sense to just plop down a grid?

I know we, and by we I mean Conservatives, really hate to speak of the legacy of racism in this country but the reason there are traditionally black neighborhoods in particular but black and Latino is that up until not that long ago we had this fucking thing called Red Lining that concentrated certain people in certain areas. It wasn't self segregation into shithole neighborhoods. We can debate some other day if the nation, state and people have done nearly enough to build up those areas. The fact that getting out of the ghetto not building up your home is the goal is a problem but lets deal with that some other day cus that's a long term social issue. So how do you carve out a district that is representative of the locals that is not in many areas going to be racially driven like it or not. In fact NOT doing so requires drawing lines that would be interesting to see what the logic was.
 
Redlining doesn't have a damn thing to do with skin color. And it's still happening under a different name. Redlining was all about loan to value..................period.
 
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