Comments vs scoring vs Author's feelings

[pink_silk_glove]

But... it isn't. That's how you define a good score relative to others. Which, fine, if you want to take the time to do that.

But that is the only way to determine it, relative to others.

What is your favorite movie? What makes it your favorite? Because you enjoyed it the most, relative to all of the other movies that you've ever seen. This is simple logic and math that governs the universe.

Whenever we determine something to be good or bad or average, we do so by comparing it to other similar things that we believe are good bad or average. This is unavoidable. It is the only way that humans can do this.

Height and temperature are imperfect comparisons. Those are objective measurements. 5'4" is objectively taller than 5'2". 12C is objectively warmer than 10C. More appropriate perhaps would be assessing temperature by asking some people how hot they'd say it is on a scale of 1-10. I don't have to chart a graph to conclude that an answer of 8-10 probably means it's a hot day -- or at least is generally perceived as such.

Height and temperature may by objective but they are still comparisons. And if you surveyed temperature on a judged scale of 1 to 10, nobody (but the odd clueless person) is going to say that 10 C is an 8 or higher. Which proves the folly of the 4.5 Red H. People think that it's a good score on the surface, but when the numbers are crunched, it's merely an average score. People regard the Red H to be a symbol of superior work, but it is not difficult to get one, 45% of all stories on lit have one, yet we know for a fact that 45% of lit stories are not superior work, so it is inaccurate - horribly inaccurate. If one is insisting on comparing scores (which is what we are doing when we use the score as a measure of anything) then one really must do so on the curve.

We may not be able to say that a score of 4.03 indicates quality of writing, prose skill or storytelling, but we can absolutely say that a score of 4.03 is mathematically a very poor score. That is my point. If someone is looking for validation of their work through the score (I would not advise doing that but the majority of people still do) then one should not be pleased with a score of 4.03 (LW not withstanding) because 4.03 is in the bottom 20% of all scores.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And when I measure a door it has no bearing on the size of any other door.

But the standard door is 30 inches wide. If we measure our door and find it to be 45 inches wide, we can then deduce compared to most other doors, that we have a wide door. ; )

Still, the measurement itself is a comparison. It is a measurement of space. We are comparing the position of the left edge of the door relative to the position of the right edge of the door in space, and using the difference to determine the width. The tape measure does not function without this logical principle inherent in the universe.

 

[MillieDynamite]

And who wants to do that math? Why would anyone, no offense intended to those who like to do that sort of thing, want to find where the good line starts on all those stories, and what use is it to anyone? It doesn't change how or why I write to know a mean score, a good score, or a bad score. If people are that shallow, or want to say, "Hey, all my tales score so huge, I'm just the best." We get enough of that kind of math from politicians.

But that is the only way to determine it, relative to others.

What is your favorite movie? What makes it your favorite? Because you enjoyed it the most, relative to all of the other movies that you've ever seen. This is simple logic and math that governs the universe.

Whenever we determine something to be good or bad or average, we do so by comparing it to other similar things that we believe are good bad or average. This is unavoidable. It is the only way that humans can do this.



Height and temperature may by objective but they are still comparisons. And if you surveyed temperature on a judged scale of 1 to 10, nobody (but the odd clueless person) is going to say that 10 C is an 8 or higher. Which proves the folly of the 4.5 Red H. People think that it's a good score on the surface, but when the numbers are crunched, it's merely an average score. People regard the Red H to be a symbol of superior work, but it is not difficult to get one, 45% of all stories on lit have one, yet we know for a fact that 45% of lit stories are not superior work, so it is inaccurate - horribly inaccurate. If one is insisting on comparing scores (which is what we are doing when we use the score as a measure of anything) then one really must do so on the curve.

We may not be able to say that a score of 4.03 indicates quality of writing, prose skill or storytelling, but we can absolutely say that a score of 4.03 is mathematically a very poor score. That is my point. If someone is looking for validation of their work through the score (I would not advise doing that but the majority of people still do) then one should not be pleased with a score of 4.03 (LW not withstanding) because 4.03 is in the bottom 20% of all scores.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

But the standard door is 30 inches wide. If we measure our door and find it to be 45 inches wide, we can then deduce compared to most other doors, that we have a wide door. ; )

Still, the measurement itself is a comparison. It is a measurement of space. We are comparing the position of the left edge of the door relative to the position of the right edge of the door in space, and using the difference to determine the width. The tape measure does not function without this logical principle inherent in the universe.

But I don't care about any other door, I only care about this door, and if my furniture will fit through it.
The measurement of any other door is irrelevant to the task at hand.

I only care about this story, and if I enjoyed it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

But on a more serious note, you can rate something without having to compare it to something.

No, actually you can't. You love the Netflix series because you compare it to other Netflix series and feel that it is better. It is that simple.

The material universe is a universe of contrasts. The only way that anything is defined is through comparison. There is no light without dark. There is no long without short. There is no black without white, etc.

If everything were the same length, the concepts of long and short would not exist. If every door were exactly 30 inches wide, we would not measure them. There would be no point. But doors around the world are different, so we compare them. Most are the same size, but many are different, very different, so we compare them to define them.

Measuring is comparing, always, and this includes judging, as judging is simply a measurement, although usually less precise, but it is still a measurement, a ranking. It is the same concept. The long jump awards medals by measuring performance with a tape measure. We compare where the jumpers lander to where they jumped from to determine performance. The 100 meter sprint awards medals by measuring performance with a stopwatch. We compare the time when the runners crossed the line to the time when the pistol fired to determine performance. Figure skating awards medals by measuring performance with judged scores. We compare the technical aspects of one skate to the others and the artistic content of one skate to all the others. Finally, all of the measurements are compared to determine the best performances and hand out the medals.

Measurement is comparison. Always. It is the law of the universe, like gravity. It is impossible to measure anything without comparing that thing to some other (usually similar) thing.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Yeah, I read them. I start by reading stories with a higher score. Then I look for authors I know. I read comments. If a low scoring story I skim to see if I want to read word for word. (I don't speed read. I have to go one word at a time. Just how I read anything.) if it seems interesting enough to catch my real attention, I read it in depth. But like I tell my friends who ask me for a beta read, if I comment, I tell it like it is. I may not offer a submitted story much insight, but I will talk about a character, or how the plot failed or succeeded. Often I stop after I offer a few words because I know I am talking into the wind.

Yes, we've had our good and bad moments with your reading style.

You gave me some good feedback the time I asked you to beta-read one story for me. But your speed-reading style missed key points in other stories of mine which should have allayed some of your criticisms.

But I don't think you're ever "talking to the wind." As shown above, I think most authors appreciate any comments. Some are merely more sensitive than others to the negative comments. I'm not sensitive. I merely find it irritating when you missed a point which I take pains to put into the story.

EDIT: However, if you're only reading highly rated stories, you'll miss almost all of mine. I post to LW, and those are usually 3.0 to 3.6, maybe beneath your limits.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

No, actually you can't. You love the Netflix series because you compare it to other Netflix series and feel that it is better. It is that simple.

The material universe is a universe of contrasts. The only way that anything is defined is through comparison. There is no light without dark. There is no long without short. There is no black without white, etc.

If everything were the same length, the concepts of long and short would not exist. If every door were exactly 30 inches wide, we would not measure them. There would be no point. But doors around the world are different, so we compare them. Most are the same size, but many are different, very different, so we compare them to define them.

Measuring is comparing, always, and this includes judging, as judging is simply a measurement, although usually less precise, but it is still a measurement, a ranking. It is the same concept. The long jump awards medals by measuring performance with a tape measure. We compare where the jumpers lander to where they jumped from to determine performance. The 100 meter sprint awards medals by measuring performance with a stopwatch. We compare the time when the runners crossed the line to the time when the pistol fired to determine performance. Figure skating awards medals by measuring performance with judged scores. We compare the technical aspects of one skate to the others and the artistic content of one skate to all the others. Finally, all of the measurements are compared to determine the best performances and hand out the medals.

Measurement is comparison. Always. It is the law of the universe, like gravity. It is impossible to measure anything without comparing that thing to some other (usually similar) thing.

Measurement and comparison are distinct words with distinct meanings.
Perhaps YOU compare every movie you have seen to determine if you enjoyed iI.
I do not.
I can read a story, listen to a song, admire a painting and enjoy it for what it is, no comparison necessary. Perhaps you can't, but I most certainly can.

Measuring something is just that. If I measure a door I'm not doing so to compare it to another door.
I'm NOT saying, "ohh, this is. 32in door, that's bigger than my closet door" I'm saying, "this couch will fit through the door."

Yes, some applications of measurement are applied in competition.
If we measure how far you throw a shot put to see if you set a record, that's competition.
If I measure my floor to determine how much tile I need, I'm not comparing it to any other floor, I'm just figuring out how many boxes of tile I need to buy. I don't give a damn how big your kitchen is, I only care about mine.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Not to be a contrarian, but how could anyone get a mean vote for over 500,000 stories with hundreds or thousands of new stories going up every week? And if anyone is so insecure that they need votes above the mean to feel good about their writings, those egos are very fragile indeed. All I want is for the reader to have an emotional response to what I write. Sure, I'd rather they love it than hate it, but hate is as valid as love.

Agree, but people do. Most people still do rate their own stories (and their writing ability) based on the scores that they get. And you are correct that this is an ego thing, although I'm sure that the vast majority don't realize it (anytime that one measures oneself by outside means - in this case other people's opinions - it's the ego, ie: what does everyone else think of me?) They are free to do they. My point is, if one insists on measuring one's performance by the scores, one should at least learn how to interpret the scores, learn the math behind comparing scores. Otherwise one will be basing one's conclusions on gross inaccuracies.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Actually, your stories are an exception to my low score I doubmethod. I at least read over them. I cannot stand a cuck simply accepting his wife kicking him in the nuts and screwing around on him while he kneels at home, happy his wife is getting some sex and he waits, ready to lick her clean upon her return. i have trouble envisioning ANY man doing that. I can't envision anybody in a close relationship accepting that, male or female.. I might accept a mutual open lifestyle. as something interesting, but even then, I cannot see a long term marriage. That is 2 roommates sharing a domicile while their intimacies lie elsewhere.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And who wants to do that math? Why would anyone, no offense intended to those who like to do that sort of thing, want to find where the good line starts on all those stories, and what use is it to anyone? It doesn't change how or why I write to know a mean score, a good score, or a bad score. If people are that shallow, or want to say, "Hey, all my tales score so huge, I'm just the best." We get enough of that kind of math from politicians.

Plenty would. I'm not all that keen on it, but I can provide the formula right here.

Sum of all scores of stories in category x.
Divide that by the number of stories in category x to calculate mean.
Sum of deviations from mean of all stories in category x.
Divide that by the number of stories in category x to calculate standard deviation.
Use the standard deviation to calculate the 80th percentile (I forget the actual formula on that but I'm sure some math nerd will gladly jump in) to determine the actual score threshold.
Any story in category x with score above that 80th percentile threshold gets Red H.

Recalculate this on a regular basis (every 24 hrs, or 12 hrs, or 3 hrs, whatever Admin decides).

This could be coded in an afternoon.

Furthermore, all of my math is first week basics of any statistics course. This is not trig nor rocket science. This is tenth grade high school math.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

But I don't care about any other door, I only care about this door, and if my furniture will fit through it.
The measurement of any other door is irrelevant to the task at hand.

But the measurement of this door is still a comparison.

Let's just assume that this is the only door in the universe. To measure the width of the door we can only do it but comparing the position in space of the left edge to the position in space of the right edge. This is entirely unavoidable.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

But the measurement of this door is still a comparison.

Let's just assume that this is the only door in the universe. To measure the width of the door we can only do it but comparing the position in space of the left edge to the position in space of the right edge. This is entirely unavoidable.

And that is a pedantic and irrelevant point.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Perhaps YOU compare every movie you have seen to determine if you enjoyed iI.
I do not.

The how can you possibly say that something is your favorite? And judging that something is liked or not is the same concept, just less precise.

Subliminally, yes you have just compared that movie/TV show to many, most or all of other movies/shows that you have seen to determine how well you enjoyed it, whether you realize this or not.

If I measure my floor to determine how much tile I need, I'm not comparing it to any other floor, I'm just figuring out how many boxes of tile I need to buy. I don't give a damn how big your kitchen is, I only care about mine.

Then the comparison made in your measurement is the size of the kitchen floor to the size of the tile. If you are measuring, you are comparing. You cannot avoid this. These are the laws of physics.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And that is a pedantic and irrelevant point.

How is this pedantic?

How is this irrelevant?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You are both right and wrong. Not every measurement is a comparison, but many are. Measuring the length of a sofa is not a comparison, because who cares how long someone else's sofa is? It's not a quality meant to be compared.

On the other hand, any measurement in the sense of grades or ratings or points, especially if it's all publicly displayed, is always a comparison. Our scores here are meant to be compared, by default.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

You are both right and wrong. Not every measurement is a comparison, but many are. Measuring the length of a sofa is not a comparison, because who cares how long someone else's sofa is? It's not a quality meant to be compared.

We can do a comparison between couches, sure. But even the measurement itself is still a comparison. How long is the couch? To determine this we must compare the position in space of the left end to the position in space of the right end. This is unavoidable.

All measurement is comparison.

This all boils down to the finite versus the infinite. The finite is measurable, the infinite is not, since we cannot compare things in any quantative way to infinity. It all makes sense if one understands the concepts of rational and irrational numbers. If one does not understand this, it will be difficult to grasp but it does not make it any less true. This is why the computer gives an error when dividing by zero (producing a quotient of infinity), because the computer can only make finite calculations with rational numbers. It cannot compare anything to (or even define) infinity so it stops and gives an error (or diverts to an error handling routine).

But all things in the material reality represent finite concepts, and these concepts are defined by their relativity to one another. Therefore all measurements are made through that relativity - hence comparison. It all has to do with the phenomenon of time and space which would derail the thread.

For now just know that all measurements are comparisons.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

How is this pedantic?

How is this irrelevant?

Because you were maintaining that measuring a door was comparing it to other doors. As soon as it became obvious that wasn't true you switched to something else.
Pedantic is being overly concerned with trivial details. I'd say that applies.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Because you were maintaining that measuring a door was comparing it to other doors. As soon as it became obvious that wasn't true you switched to something else.

No, I never backtracked. I have perfectly maintained in the thread that comparing the door to other doors is a measurement, and also the measurement of the door itself is also it's own comparison. These are two separate things, and hardly mutually exclusive. I have not switched anything.

Pedantic is being overly concerned with trivial details. I'd say that applies.

If it does, then your nitpicking here would equally apply to yourself. However, I would not call the basics structures of the concepts trivial. In fact they are the opposite. They are intrinsic to the discussion. Curiously, which details of my stance would you deem trivial?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

We can do a comparison between couches, sure. But even the measurement itself is still a comparison. How long is the couch? To determine this we must compare the position in space of the left end to the position in space of the right end. This is unavoidable.

All measurement is comparison.

Philosophically speaking, that's true. When we measure the sofa, we compare it against the space it needs to fill, maybe even against the width of asses that need to sit on it. In that sense, every measurement is a comparison with something.

But I would say that the comparison in the sense of this topic and discussion was about competitive comparison. In that sense, not everything compares. Grades, ratings, scores, points; those are the things you automatically compare. You compare one quality of yours with the exact same quality of someone else's. But it makes no sense to compare the length of sofas, pots, umbrellas, etc. Some qualities aren't meant to be compared, not because they couldn't be compared, but because no one cares to compare those things.

 

[lovecraft68]

Actually, your stories are an exception to my low score I doubmethod. I at least read over them. I cannot stand a cuck simply accepting his wife kicking him in the nuts and screwing around on him while he kneels at home, happy his wife is getting some sex and he waits, ready to lick her clean upon her return. i have trouble envisioning ANY man doing that. I can't envision anybody in a close relationship accepting that, male or female.. I might accept a mutual open lifestyle. as something interesting, but even then, I cannot see a long term marriage. That is 2 roommates sharing a domicile while their intimacies lie elsewhere.

But what you're not understanding is for some people what you can't envision is the very kink they enjoy.

That's what's wrong with vast factions of the LW readership, they are the only readers on the site who simply refuse to believe these are just fictional stories and constantly act as if they're real and then get outraged over them.

They should put a disclaimer at the head of the category "No, amazing, virtuous and always good men were cheated on by any nasty evil women in real life, this is a work of fiction" to help sooth the butthurt of the professionally offended and terminally salty

 

[MillieDynamite]

Data: Believing oneself to be perfect is often the sign of a delusional mind.

Star Trek Frist Contact

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Philosophically speaking, that's true. When we measure the sofa, we compare it against the space it needs to fill, maybe even against the width of asses that need to sit on it. In that sense, every measurement is a comparison with something.

It's actually more than philosophical. It's reality. Most people never understand this their entire life, but you're catching on, so you're doing well. (comparatively speaking) ; )

But I would say that the comparison in the sense of this topic and discussion was about competitive comparison. In that sense, not everything compares. Grades, ratings, scores, points; those are the things you automatically compare. You compare one quality of yours with the exact same quality of someone else's. But it makes no sense to compare the length of sofas, pots, umbrellas, etc. Some qualities aren't meant to be compared, not because they couldn't be compared, but because no one cares to compare those things.

But even if one believes that they are not comparing, they are. Remember, this whole arm of the the discussion started when someone (if I remember it was crookedletter?) said that 4 means a good score, simply because 4 out of 5 is simply above 3. What happened here is that the writer compared the score to the number 4 or the number 3.

You make a great point, that some things aren't worth comparing, and scores on lit could easily fit into that list. But if we are going to compare scores on lit, what are we comparing them to? My argument is that comparing scores to other scores (while far from perfect) would be far more accurate than comparing them to the arbitrary number 3. So the lesson learned here is that if we are going to compare, it is essential that we choose something appropriate to compare to or we will risk getting an inaccurate measurement.

Kelliezgirl makes a great point that we may not care how wide our door is compared to other doors if all we want to do is move the couch through it. In this case, it is useless for us to compare the width of our door to other doors. We only want to measure whether or not the door is wide enough for the couch, so the best comparison to suit our purpose is to compare the width of the door to the width of the couch. But we are still comparing in order to measure whether or not the door is wide enough for our immediate purposes.

And finally to be clear, separate of all that, the actual measurement itself is a comparison - the position in space of one edge of the door compared to the position in space of the other edge. This is not philosophic opinion. This is physical truth (physics).

 

[Cagivagurl]

This should always be emphasized.

Scores, top lists, favorites, followers, votes, comments, they are all indicators of how much readers enjoyed our stories - their content most of all, and to a significantly lesser degree, the quality of writing and storytelling. Content is above everything else; that much is clear to anyone who has spent years reading stories here.

The old battle of content versus quality...
That is for me, why as a reader you cannot rely on scores....
Some of the more popular stories in certain categories, are atrociously written. Cardboard characters, terrible plot that is totally mixed up, but. The story however included all the important key words and phrases that excites the kinks for the readers of that particular category... Equals high score, but shit story...
Content is irrelevant for me as a reader.....

Remember... I speak only for myself, but. I don't read to masturbate. I like a story to have believable characters, rich dialogue, and an interesting plot.... If there is some erotic element, then good, but I never seek that out... Eroticism over smut for me...
So, as a reader, I totally ignore the scores, I look first for trusted authors... Then if delving deeper, the title has to offer something...

 

[Cagivagurl]

Actually, content is to me a major part of the vote. Content is not just striking off the key points of the story. It is how the story is told. Does it make sense? In other words, given a certain amount of suspension of belief, is the story logical? Does it resonate with the readers or not?
I was surprised to read that many comments here revealed that if they bother to read a story to the end, it is an automatic 4. Yeah that would skew the scoring. Statistics on here comparing ratings across the board make judging on score alone almost meaningless. But they might in certain genres.
I read many stories to the end as long as I can follow it. Some are simply unreadable. Or the content is either so repulsive or illogical, I cannot continue. My own rating ranges mainly between 2 and 4. Anything so bad to deserve a 1, i quit.
I've read many where the basic plot was decent, but undeveloped and I'll comment accordingly. I might even cut a first submission some slack and give it a 4 as encouragement.
A well told story, in my opinion is one that resonates with the reader. Now I have almost quit looking at scores in several categories because they are totally meaningless. Every story rates above a 4. I will say in LW, I rarely bother to open a story that is below a 3.2 or so. There is a high enough number of discriminating readers there to tell me I needn't waste my time.
I read comments though in most categories. Some categories have few if any responses.
But when I run across a story that is rated well, has a number of responses that comment about the characters (beyond saying one sucks) I can tell the author hit a note with his readership. I'll read that one to see what I think.

I am the opposite....
Content is not important... Sort of... The content I'm searching for is quality writing, believable interesting characters, lots of delicious dialogue, and a plot that holds me....
I don't read to feed a fetish, or kink... I read to be entertained. Yes, I like eroticism... intrigue... passion... desire... a chase...

So for me.... Content is irrelevant....

As a writer, I am the same. I don't write to please the audience. I do it for fun... I do have an ego, and hope that it is enjoyed by a small group... But if I'm the only one enjoying it. I'm OK with that as an outcome....

Just my thoughts.

Cagivagurl

 

[AwkwardlySet]

My argument is that comparing scores to other scores (while far from perfect) would be far more accurate than comparing them to the arbitrary number 3.

In general, number 3 has meaning only because it represents some point of reference in the ranking. In this sense, Lit scores aren't creating a normal Gaussian, so it could easily be argued that 3 is worthless when it comes to score comparison on Lit.
Using 4.5, for example, makes much more sense, but again, not because of that specific value, but both because 4.5 gives a red H, a very much visible benchmark of a sort, but also because the median score on Lit is so close to 4.5. So, comparing your score with 4.5 is equal to comparing your score against the scores of other authors.