Beta Reader Feedback Style

[Djmac1031]

This is an excellent example of what I was talking about.

Look, at the end of the day, it's your personal choice, and if you prefer not to use beta readers, I have no desire to try and beat you over the head to convince you otherwise.

Most of us here have obviously disagreed with your take on beta reader input and how it affects the originality of an authors story.

if you've found success doing things your way, then go with it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Look, at the end of the day, it's your personal choice, and if you prefer not to use beta readers, I have no desire to try and beat you over the head to convince you otherwise.

Most of us here have obviously disagreed with your take on beta reader input and how it affects the originality of an authors story.

if you've found success doing things your way, then go with it.

I don't even think it's a matter of agreement and disagreement. It's just a matter of who we are and what makes us tick.
I see a lot of rational reasons to use beta readers. I can clearly see how useful, even precious, they can be. It's just that it bothers me somewhat. That part of me isn't entirely rational, if at all.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Two words… Iron Man

To get this thread back on track, the above wasn’t precisely a derailment. It perhaps illustrates one aspect of how @Djmac1031 and I collaborate, and is - I believe - pertinent to @AwkwardlySet’s question.

Anyway, I’m writing a novel. It’s got some erotic elements, but it’s not a fuck-a-palooza. It has six parts and I have a written a first draft of Parts I - IV and am working on Parts V and VI, both of which are about half done. So far it’s 80,000 words give or take, so will probably be in the region of 90,000 words when done.

Maybe other people are much stronger and have greater reserves of willpower than me, but I don’t think I could have kept going for that long without having a friend along for the ride. That friend is the much maligned (mostly by me) @Djmac1031. Other people have read part or all of it and will be acknowledged in the footnotes, but DJ read and commented on every section as I wrote it.

But what about Iron Man? Well let’s say he’s a Marvel fan and I’m not really. Toward the end of Part IV, there is an initial confrontation with someone who will become the main antagonist later. I was keeping my powder dry for Part V, and so skipped the fight scene and wrote just its outcome.

DJ felt I was selling the reader short. He got that I wanted to have the big fight later in the novel, but thought that I’d done a lot of build up to then skip the first fight entirely.

Here we go with the artistic ownership bit. The fight might be a bit one sided as the main protagonist was developing a range of powers. He suggested that maybe the antagonist could have some special suit that evened things up. This is where I called him on an Iron Man fixation. But he was right otherwise.

I wrote my own abbreviated fight scene (no suit involved), which I think made the work better. But I wrote my fight scene idea, not his. That’s how it works. It’s pointing out things that don’t work, then me fixing them. On occasion, I might take DJ’s advice on how to fix a problem as well. But it’s normally me who figures out a) do I agree it’s a problem, and then b) how / whether to address it.

 

[Djmac1031]

That’s how it works. It’s pointing out things that don’t work, then me fixing them

This.

As I said in an earlier post, I make suggestions to Emily all the time. Some she accepts, some she declines.

And even when she agrees with me that the story needs something, she's never been obligated to use MY suggestions. Most times, she comes up with her own solutions.

Another example; Emily tends to write stream of consciousness, then edit after. So i often get the raw writing first. There are many, many times ill point out an awkwardly phased sentence and provide an example of how to clarify it and make it flow better.

Emily almost never uses MY example, even when she agrees the sentence needs fixing. Instead, she rewrites it herself.

 

[lc69hunter]

I don't do a lot of Beta reading, though I have been a editor on a few. I primarily look for the obvious, like their, there and they're, etc, and one that drives me nuts, discreet vs discrete. I try and leave the story alone. One, a couple of years ago, I was asked to review a story from one of my favorite authors, who wrote a story that I absolutely hated. It almost broke up a good "friendship" as I said things I should not have. I apologized.

 

[Actingup]

Partially inspired by Penny's lovely thread for fêting beta readers and partially because I am myself currently beta reading another friend's story, I have to ask: For those of us who are authors but also do beta reading* for other authors here, what is your style of giving feedback?

• Do you go through and look for errors in grammar/spelling, more in a proofreader/copyeditor sense?
• How far do you go for factual accuracy? (Ex. the author has clearly depicted some sort of thing or process in such a way that is incorrect; do you point this out?)
• Do you ask why authors say things in certain ways or question how they've described a character/setting/place? Or do you just let the story stand on its own as the author has presented it to you?
• Does being an author yourself inform how you beta read for someone else?

Obviously some authors clearly state the parameters of how and on what they want to receive feedback, so I suppose these questions are posed to the readers who are given more free rein with their commentary.

*(I am aware that there are semantic arguments to be had about alpha vs. beta readers but for the purposes of this question I just mean the people you trust to read your work after you're mostly done with it, but are open to changing significant portions if needed.)

Interesting thread! As you know, I've been an appreciative part of a few fireside discussions with you and @PennyThompson. For me, it's the mixture of helpful, thoughtful insight, creative suggestions, orange and red flags, and constructive camaraderie that makes it a useful and enjoyable process. I'm emphasing the enjoyment part because if it was drudgery, it would hold little interest for me; the beta reading aspect is part of the joyful creative process.

My answers to the above would be 1) yes but not exhaustively, 2) yes, point out obvious inaccuracies, particularly in your field of expertise or experience (and I can think of a very specific and helpful example of you doing that), 3) yes, challenge the author as much as you want to, 4) yes, it does inform the process, and 5) (bonus comment) it's volunteer labour and you shouldn't feel obliged to do more than you're prepared to.

 

[TheRedLantern]

I beta read for a couple of authors here, and I enjoy it for its own sake as well as for accumulating some social capital to get their feedback on my work. Two things go into the feedback that I give.

The first is what they say they want me to look at (or not to look at) based on the maturity of the manuscript. Sometimes I'm reading a first draft and so I look for structural issues, characterization, and general narrative flow. Sometimes it's a more polished draft and I get picky about repetition, phrasing, word choice, and the stylistic impact of things like sentence length, paragraph size, and intentional violations of grammar and style. There's almost always feedback about sensory details, especially here on Lit where authors seem to forget that characters have ears, noses, nerve endings, and taste buds.

The second is where I judge the author to be in their artistic development. If I sense that they're new, then there's a lot more encouragement so that they can get a feel for their strengths that they want to play to as well as weaknesses they should watch out for in the future. If they're clearly strong and experienced (eg, they've been here for a long time and have multiple works for sale), then I assume they're looking for a no-holds-barred review and don't have time for kid gloves.

I almost never look at grammar or spelling, though. Spellcheckers exist, so I don't stress about that unless it's a thing that a spellchecker might miss. And I feel that strict adherence to grammar & style guides is for suckers, CEOs, and grandpas.

Factual details I will note, but I find pedantry extremely off-putting so unless it affects the story you won't get many "well, ackshually light sabers make a whirring sound not a whining sound" comments from me.

This is a great topic. I'm glad it got brought up.

 

[Actingup]

Factual details I will note, but I find pedantry extremely off-putting so unless it affects the story you won't get many "well, ackshually light sabers make a whirring sound not a whining sound" comments from me.

This is a great topic. I'm glad it got brought up.

Yes, but disappointed Star Wars fans definitely make a whining sound if the details are wrong.

(ducking)

 

[Nynah]

I enjoy it for its own sake as well as for accumulating some social capital to get their feedback on my work.

I think this is a great point. Beta reading for other authors here is one of the main ways AH really feels like a community to me. We're all here scratching words into existence for views, but it feels a little less lonely when you have other writers to commiserate with. AH can be a good way of getting that "social capital" so to speak, but beta reading feels a touch closer than that. It's not for everyone, but for me, it's one of the more valuable things I have engaged in since coming back to Lit.

I almost never look at grammar or spelling, though. Spellcheckers exist, so I don't stress about that unless it's a thing that a spellchecker might miss. And I feel that strict adherence to grammar & style guides is for suckers, CEOs, and grandpas.

Factual details I will note, but I find pedantry extremely off-putting so unless it affects the story you won't get many "well, ackshually light sabers make a whirring sound not a whining sound" comments from me.

These are more good points! When I beta read, I'm typically the opposite way; I can't help but toggle that "Suggesting" dropdown and fixing an errant typo here or a missing comma there. And as the folks I've beta read for know, I'm pretty pedantic when it comes to things I'm passionate about.

@Bramblethorn said it best in Penny's thread about beta readers. Everyone has their own beta reading style so if you are fortunate enough to have multiple betas reading for you, your work will be that much better for it given each reader's strengths/interests. But even if you have only one person doing it for you, that perspective that isn't your own can often be invaluable.

 

[Bramblethorn]

@Bramblethorn said it best in Penny's thread about beta readers. Everyone has their own beta reading style so if you are fortunate enough to have multiple betas reading for you, your work will be that much better for it given each reader's strengths/interests. But even if you have only one person doing it for you, that perspective that isn't your own can often be invaluable.

I should acknowledge: "death by focus group" can be a thing, and authors who just accept every suggestion their beta reader/s offer risk ending up with something bland. But I don't think this has much to do with the number of readers.

 

[NuclearFairy]

So, out of curiosity, what would the best way to go looking for a beta reader be? Would it be pming someone that you're friendly with in the AH who you think might be interested, or would it be posting in the editors forums?

 

[PennyThompson]

So, out of curiosity, what would the best way to go looking for a beta reader be? Would it be pming someone that you're friendly with in the AH who you think might be interested, or would it be posting in the editors forums?

You can put out a cold call for beta readers in the EF, but other than my very first beta reading experience, I've just privately asked people that I like and respect

 

[Gamblnluck]

Partially inspired by Penny's lovely thread for fêting beta readers and partially because I am myself currently beta reading another friend's story, I have to ask: For those of us who are authors but also do beta reading* for other authors here, what is your style of giving feedback?

• Do you go through and look for errors in grammar/spelling, more in a proofreader/copyeditor sense?
• How far do you go for factual accuracy? (Ex. the author has clearly depicted some sort of thing or process in such a way that is incorrect; do you point this out?)
• Do you ask why authors say things in certain ways or question how they've described a character/setting/place? Or do you just let the story stand on its own as the author has presented it to you?
• Does being an author yourself inform how you beta read for someone else?

Obviously some authors clearly state the parameters of how and on what they want to receive feedback, so I suppose these questions are posed to the readers who are given more free rein with their commentary.

*(I am aware that there are semantic arguments to be had about alpha vs. beta readers but for the purposes of this question I just mean the people you trust to read your work after you're mostly done with it, but are open to changing significant portions if needed.)

Before I read another comment, I'll give mine. My read of a story as a beta reader is NOT to edit. It is to tell the author what I think of his story. Where he succeeded and more importantly, where he failed to keep his story in tact. I make suggestions about plot holes. Where his story lacked continuity and was difficult to follow.

I consider the guy I am doing the beta read for as my friend. I want his story to be as good as possible. I am actually better at taking their story and making it better than I am in writing my own. I have a few beta readers who read my series. they know where it came from and often call me out on a continuance issue. (The woman was name Lisa in chapter 29 not Judy. She was 6'2", not somebody you are gonna wrestle to the ground easily,)
I recently pulled a friend's story apart. I felt bad doing it. But it was better me than others and I even spent a day doing a re-write to show him my approach.

 

[Bramblethorn]

So, out of curiosity, what would the best way to go looking for a beta reader be? Would it be pming someone that you're friendly with in the AH who you think might be interested, or would it be posting in the editors forums?

More likely the former, though be sure to look at their own writing first to check whether you're likely to be on the same wavelength.

When I'm considering beta requests from new collaborators (which isn't right now), I need some idea of what I might be signing up for. I'm unlikely to say yes to "will you beta my story?" if I don't know how long it is, what it's about, or what your writing style is like. Providing a word count, a description and a link so I can go check it out before giving an answer improves the chances of getting a "yes".

 

[Gamblnluck]

So, from that point on, I see two choices, and both would bother me a lot. The first is to reject your idea and keep everything as it is, and let the story be worse for it.
The second is to embrace your idea and rewrite the character and make the story better... but not fully mine anymore. I didn't come up with that, and the "coming up" part of writing is very important to me.

In a way, yes. The beta reader shows you where you missed the mark and where you need to improve. Think of him as almost a second author at the most. Or it could be he says, "Hey, the way you said this is unclear. Fix it." And what about how you forgot about Grandma who owned the whole place and was sitting in them living room?

 

[Gamblnluck]

I think this is a great point. Beta reading for other authors here is one of the main ways AH really feels like a community to me. We're all here scratching words into existence for views, but it feels a little less lonely when you have other writers to commiserate with. AH can be a good way of getting that "social capital" so to speak, but beta reading feels a touch closer than that. It's not for everyone, but for me, it's one of the more valuable things I have engaged in since coming back to Lit.

I get benefit out of a beta read. But from what I read through the comments above, most of these authors would not accept harsh comments, suggestions for major changes etc..

 

[Nynah]

So, out of curiosity, what would the best way to go looking for a beta reader be? Would it be pming someone that you're friendly with in the AH who you think might be interested, or would it be posting in the editors forums?

For two of the three beta reading opportunities I've had here, they came about organically from me commenting on the other author's stories to the point where they messaged me through the Literotica feedback portal and left their email address so we started up a correspondence that eventually lead to them asking me to beta read their next story. Each of them were clear as to what they were looking for and I felt truly humbled to have been asked. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the pipeline you should be shooting for (Penny's suggestion of just messaging authors you admire and respect would seem the most direct way to do it, the worst they can say is 'no'), but it has worked for me!

I get benefit out of a beta read. But from what I read through the comments above, most of these authors would not accept harsh comments, suggestions for major changes etc..

Just speaking from my experiences with the authors here for whom I have beta read, all of them were receptive to my commentary. This might be because none of my comments were 'harsh' and I did not suggest major changes, but I think that speaks to my own personal style of beta reading as well as having a baseline trust and respect between myself and the authors I'm helping.

If I had to beta read for someone I didn't know as well, I don't think I would be harsh in my commentary but I might make suggestions for changes if I thought it was warranted. And again, at the end of the day, it's the author's story to tell so if they're not jiving with what I've offered, then that's their prerogative and I'm not going to feel bad either way.