New spins

[alohadave]

Being left alone to get a decent night's sleep is probably a fantasy that many of us develop in middle age.

I like harem stories, but they seem like they'd be exhausting in real life.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

If you're dealing with a blind character, their description almost has to come through the eyes of an observer, or admirer. Couldn't a third person narrator of a story make the description?

Someone blind from birth would have no point of reference.

'Your golden hair gleams like the morning sun.'

What would that mean to someone who has never seen gold or the sun?

 

[Nynah]

I like harem stories, but they seem like they'd be exhausting in real life.

I suspect an unspoken part of those fantasies is having the stamina to keep up with the rigors of having so many... options.

 

[StillStunned]

Didn't some famous character in literature, see themself in a pool of water?

Narcissus, perhaps?

If you're dealing with a blind character, their description almost has to come through the eyes of an observer, or admirer. Couldn't a third person narrator of a story make the description? I've never been very good using that method. Thanks for putting this concept into my brain, so I'll now be examining how to write about it without using a mirror, or reflection.

A trick that I've adopted from sword & sorcery is to begin the story with an omniscient narrator, using a throw-away character as the POV. That character provides the set-up for the story and the main POV character is shown through their eyes. Like this, for example:

The city of Kurzt had known peace for nearly a century. Its safety and prosperity drew many to its gates, searching for a share in that prosperity, or at the very least a part of its safety.

They came from all over, merchants, pedlars and fortune hunters. It was this that made the tedium of guard duty bearable, thought Captain Karrel. He made it a game, guessing where each newcomer hailed from and what their business was.

The woman approaching now was easy to place. The pale skin and red hair put her origins to the west, from the Wet Isles. Pirates and explorers, her people were, and it was unusual to see one of them so far inland. Nor was the great sword that she carried on her back the typical weapon of the Isles, although the leather breeches and sleeveless jerkin she wore could have been from anywhere.

Still, the blue tattoos crawling up her bare arms would probably tell their own tale, and hers. As she came closer, Captain Karrel tried to decipher them, but beyond the sea serpent denoting at least one bloody pirate raid and the half-sun of a trained skald, he couldn't make sense of them.

"Business?" he demanded.

She looked at him, a measuring look in her green eyes. "I seek the Great Library. I have a letter of introduction to Master Elmess." She drew a folded parchment from inside her jerkin. Her hands were scarred.

"Very well. You may pass."

A pirate visiting the Master of the Library was odd, but scholars had a reputation for dealing with odd sorts. And for a skald it was perhaps not so strange. Dismissing the woman without another thought, the Captain turned his attention to the next arrival.

Behind him, the pale woman passed under the great gates, and paused. The noise of the city, which had been a low buzz outside the walls, hit her now like the clash of battle.

(And so on.)

 

[FrancesScott]

them being 100% lesbian.

I might get tarred and feathered by any gold stars out there, but no one is 100% anything sexually. Avowedly straight guys are at most 99% hetero and most likely much less than that, maybe 75% It’s a symmetrical comment about lesbians. We are complicated creatures.

 

[TheLobster]

It’s a symmetrical comment about lesbians.

Is it, though? There is this popular notion that female sexuality is more fluid, and the "lesbians who fall for an exceptional dick" trope is one manifestation of it.

So, this notion must surely come from somewhere. But where?

 

[ChuckWolf]

Is it, though? There is this popular notion that female sexuality is more fluid, and the "lesbians who fall for an exceptional dick" trope is one manifestation of it.

So, this notion must surely come from somewhere. But where?

Wishful thinking?

 

[TheLobster]

Wishful thinking?

My hunch would be Kinsey but hey, both of these explanations are pretty much equally legitimate

 

[FrancesScott]

So, this notion must surely come from somewhere. But where?

The male id.

 

[THBGato]

I like harem stories, but they seem like they'd be exhausting in real life.

Maybe that's why men fantasise about a threesome with two lesbians - they want somebody else to do all the work for them.

 

[iwatchus]

I suppose, but I think the discussion was related to the guy's lesbian threeway fantasy with them being 100% lesbian.

I assume the guy thinks they are really bisexual, they just haven’t met him and his amazing member.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

In my story, the guy didn't know at all. Had no information about it until the next morning.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I might get tarred and feathered by any gold stars out there, but no one is 100% anything sexually. Avowedly straight guys are at most 99% hetero and most likely much less than that, maybe 75% It’s a symmetrical comment about lesbians. We are complicated creatures.

I also see sexuality as a spectrum rather than distinct groups.

I have a male friend who is hetero, and when we were at uni, he used to say it would be awesome if we could arrange a threesome or a foursome with two chicks, a MMF or a MMFF basically. As far as I know, he never had any gay or bi tendencies, but he loved those rapper videos where they would bang chicks together...
I would nod, not wishing to hurt his feelings, but I've always found it repulsive to be engaged in group sex with another guy or guys, regardless of whether we would "touch" or not. On the other hand, a MFF+ is a dream come true, same as for most other guys. I guess I am simply farther towards the hetero end of the spectrum? I've always wondered why he found those things fascinating, and this is the only answer I could come up with.

 

[Erozetta]

My first offering: the mirror.

How about, instead of standing passively in front of the mirror, the character catches a glimpse of their reflection in the tall glass window opposite as they come down the stairs? You can break up the static scene with motion, and add an element of uncertainty because it's not a perfect reflection. Or a series of smaller mirrors arrayed along the wall, to create the opportunity to describe separate features one by one.

I did a take on this where the MMC is standing in the mirror with the MFC. They go between touching and describing each other, caressing scars, asking questions about birthmarks, just detailing parts they love. It's a sort of homework session from couples therapy for them.

 

[crookedletter]

The story I just finished hinges in part on the "only one bed" trope. The hotel failed to book all the rooms that were requested, etc. etc. etc.

I know it's a tired trope, and I'm not sure what I did would be considered any kind of "new spin" on it. But I wrote it thoughtfully and tried to make my characters interesting and relatable, and I think if you can succeed at that (whether or not I have) you can overcome the initial eye-rolls your tropes elicit.

 

[StillStunned]

The story I just finished hinges in part on the "only one bed" trope. The hotel failed to book all the rooms that were requested, etc. etc. etc.

I know it's a tired trope, and I'm not sure what I did would be considered any kind of "new spin" on it. But I wrote it thoughtfully and tried to make my characters interesting and relatable, and I think if you can succeed at that (whether or not I have) you can overcome the initial eye-rolls your tropes elicit.

My first Incest story was about a brother and sister sharing a sleeping bag. I think I managed to pack quite a bit of character into 1.5k words, but the thing is, I don't think the readers really care. "Too Cold Not to Fuck" has more than 180k views and is rated 4.56 from more than 3000 votes.

So perhaps this whole thread is more writerly stuff that's just a shrug for readers.

 

[crookedletter]

So perhaps this whole thread is more writerly stuff that's just a shrug for readers.

Maybe. But as a writer, and as a reader, I care.

 

[iwatchus]

My first Incest story was about a brother and sister sharing a sleeping bag. I think I managed to pack quite a bit of character into 1.5k words, but the thing is, I don't think the readers really care. "Too Cold Not to Fuck" has more than 180k views and is rated 4.56 from more than 3000 votes.

So perhaps this whole thread is more writerly stuff that's just a shrug for readers.

As you said recently, you write mostly for yourself. I think we all want to like the stories we write.

I would rather write stories that I am proud of and like than write stories to chase ratings. Of course, I would really like readers to like the stories I write, too. But I will take what I can get.

 

[FrancesScott]

I think we all need to step back here. We are writing porn. It might be porn that tends to the literary end of the spectrum, or porn that is just porn.

Porn is stuffed full () of tropes. As writers we are maybe better served by embracing at least some of them, occasionally subverting one or two, and instead saving our creative energies for other aspects of our writing.

Option 1

Zero tropes + lumpen writing with no plot and cardboard characters.

Option 2

A few tropes + lucid writing, a captivating plot, and characters the reader cares about.

I vote #2 every time.

 

[StillStunned]

I think we all need to step back here. We are writing porn. It might be porn that tends to the literary end of the spectrum, or porn that is just porn.

Porn is stuffed full () of tropes. As writers we are maybe better served by embracing at least some of them, occasionally subverting one or two, and instead saving our creative energies for other aspects of our writing.

Option 1

Zero tropes + lumpen writing with no plot and cardboard characters.

Option 2

A few tropes + lucid writing, a captivating plot, and characters the reader cares about.

I vote #2 every time.

I don't think it's a binary choice. I agree that good writing will mostly trump originality, though, at least to a degree. If the story is too predictable and unimaginative, I can see readers punishing it regardless of the prose, character development and second act twists. So I'd rather put some effort into making my scenarios fresh.

That said, you probably have to know if your scenario is a cliché. The story I mentioned a few posts up, about brother and sister sharing a sleeping bag, has all the originality of a modern-day Hollywood movie. But even though I didn't expect it to be an undiscovered gem, I had no idea how overdone the trope was. I'd never thought about it, and the scenario seemed like a plausible excuse for siblings to be in bed together. I expect that at least 50k of those 180k readers rolled their eyes after two paragraphs and clicked away.

 

[filthytrancendence]

Tropes are just things that get done a lot. Usually because they solve some problem or other. Often they are viewed as a necessary component of inclusion in a genre.

A cliche is an execution of a trope without finesse. It's usually the most obvious way to execute a trope, or maybe the most obvious half dozen ways if it's an exceptionally common trope.

Tropes are basically unavoidable. Attempting to avoid them entirely has a non-zero chance of actively harming a story. Cliches are usually avoidable, and should probably only be employed if you have some kind of plan to subvert them later.

I am pretty bad at coming up with examples in situations like this out of the blue. And so have little to offer this thread beyond making this distinction which runs the risk of being called hair splitting...

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Everything that does or doesn't involve one or more humans is a 'trope' in that it's been done many times before.

 

[alohadave]

I think we all need to step back here. We are writing porn. It might be porn that tends to the literary end of the spectrum, or porn that is just porn.

Porn is stuffed full () of tropes. As writers we are maybe better served by embracing at least some of them, occasionally subverting one or two, and instead saving our creative energies for other aspects of our writing.

Option 1

Zero tropes + lumpen writing with no plot and cardboard characters.

Option 2

A few tropes + lucid writing, a captivating plot, and characters the reader cares about.

I vote #2 every time.

Read @MelissaBaby's Ranger Ramona and tell me that we are just writing porn. I mean most of us are, but it's really dismissive to lump everything together just because it's posted here.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

My favorite trope is enemies to lovers.. the cliché of course being that the story ends in a romantic HEA (guilty).
What I love seeing is is a good enemies to lovers but they still can't fucking stand each other story Not sure I've read one of those on lit...

It's not lesbian sex, but if enemies to lovers is appealing to you, you might want to check out "Justice"

 

[FrancesScott]

I don't think it's a binary choice. I agree that good writing will mostly trump originality, though, at least to a degree. If the story is too predictable and unimaginative, I can see readers punishing it regardless of the prose, character development and second act twists. So I'd rather put some effort into making my scenarios fresh.

I agree, but in striving too hard for originality, we also potentially alienate readers. I think I may have a little experience with that!