Alternatives to Porn, should we try together?

[SimonDoom]

ut I’m trying to understand it, not that anyone seems willing to explain.

I have explained. I'm not sure you want to hear the explanation.

 

[FrancesScott]

I have explained. I'm not sure you want to hear the explanation.

Your quasi-libertarian “I can write or read anything and it’s all totally harmless as I can intellectually dissociate” approach is I doubt a mainstream motivation. It’s a bit too… cerebral. I suspect that there is more to it than ‘naughty transgression’ for at least some.

And it’s not like you are a true afficiaando. I’m interested in the views of someone who is deeply invested in the non-con genre. Not CNC, not reluctance, but deeply invested in writing / reading about non-consensual sex. I don’t think you can speak for that demographic.

 

[onehitwanda]

I've just realized how tough the new image policy has been for Wanda.

is that what it fucking is? I've been tearing my hair out over here, hunting through preferences, deleting cookies...

fuck me dead.

 

[SimonDoom]

Your quasi-libertarian “I can write or read anything and it’s all totally harmless as I can intellectually dissociate” approach is I doubt a mainstream motivation. It’s a bit too… cerebral. I suspect that there is more to it than ‘naughty transgression’ for at least some.

And it’s not like you are a true afficiaando. I’m interested in the views of someone who is deeply invested in the non-con genre. Not CNC, not reluctance, but deeply invested in writing / reading about non-consensual sex. I don’t think you can speak for that demographic.

The quasi-libertarian thing isn't the explanation. It's the other comments I've made. You haven't responded to them.

It's human nature. We're animals. We are not far removed from our ancestors, brute beasts that chased big game across the plains of Africa. Men want to conquer, subdue, pursue, hunt, and bend others to their will. To be able to coerce another into doing something they don't want to do, like having sex, is evidence of power, and power is attractive, and erotic. None of this is complicated or hard to understand. We crave transgression. We want to wallow in it and fantasize about it. We enjoy movies that feature the most depraved violence imaginable. Little boys step on bugs and burn them with magnifying glasses. We are wired this way.

You're probably not going to get a lot of aficionados of nonconsent, and specifically aficionados of stories about raping, rather than being raped, because a) there probably are not that many such readers, and b) it hits too close to home for people to talk about what motivates them personally. It's easier for someone, like me, to talk about it in a third-person, impersonal way, since it's not my particular kink.

 

[FrancesScott]

it's not my particular kink.

And that’s my issue (OK one of my issues) with what you say. You’re making assumptions, extrapolating from your own POV, making generalizations. And I doubt very much that this is representative of the type of person I am interested in understanding.

You claim to understand their motivations. I claim that you probably don’t. You’ve applied your own intellectual and moral framework on to the area and called it good. That’s fine if that works for you, but I want to get a firsthand perspective.

And, for the avoidance of doubt, I am genuinely interested. Not just looking to tar and feather people.

Your “we are all one step away from chimps” comment is self-evidently true, but don’t we aspire to being more? Isn’t a large part of the human project trying to live up to values of decency and empathy and kindness?

I don’t watch slasher movies. They have zero appeal.

 

[MelissaBaby]

nobody actually wants a horrific traumatizing experience.

Yeah, actually, people do. Some people are so consumed with guilt and remorse that they self harm or seek out traumatizing experiences in a form of self-harm by proxy.

At one point in my life I seriously considered suicide. I went so far as to actually buy a rope and go online to learn how to tie a hangman's noose. Years later, when I wrote about it in a blog post, someone asked me, "You were deeply involved in the drug culture. You could get any kind of pills you wanted and end your life easily and painlessly, why would you even consider such a horrific way to die?

The answer is that dying was only one part of the equation. The other part was atonement through suffering. I didn't just want to die, I wanted to punish myself.

I suppose you could say I didn't really want it, because I didn't follow through. But how many people in that same situation did?

 

[FrancesScott]

Yeah, actually, people do. Some people are so consumed with guilt and remorse that they self harm or seek out traumatizing experiences in a form of self-harm by proxy.

At one point in my life I seriously considered suicide. I went so far as to actually buy a rope and go online to learn how to tie a hangman's noose. Years later, when I wrote about it in a blog post, someone asked me, "You were deeply involved in the drug culture. You could get any kind of pills you wanted and end your life easily and painlessly, why would you even consider such a horrific way to die?

The answer is that dying was only one part of the equation. The other part was atonement through suffering. I didn't just want to die, I wanted to punish myself.

I suppose you could say I didn't really want it, because I didn't follow through. But how many people in that same situation did?

I think people don’t really understand what trauma does to people. This is very eloquently and honestly described.

 

[SimonDoom]

And that’s my issue (OK one of my issues) with what you say. You’re making assumptions, extrapolating from your own POV, making generalizations. And I doubt very much that this is representative of the type of person I am interested in understanding.

You claim to understand their motivations. I claim that you probably don’t. You’ve applied your own intellectual and moral framework on to the area and called it good. That’s fine if that works for you, but I want to get a firsthand perspective.

And, for the avoidance of doubt, I am genuinely interested. Not just looking to tar and feather people.

Your “we are all one step away from chimps” comment is self-evidently true, but don’t we aspire to being more? Isn’t a large part of the human project trying to live up to values of decency and empathy and kindness?

I don’t watch slasher movies. They have zero appeal.

I'm less convinced than some people are of the superiority of personal experience as the window to truth. On the contrary, I'm inclined to think that disinterested third-party observation is a better way to get at the truth than to listen to those with personal experience, which tends to be subjective, based on limited and possibly non-representative data, and motivated by bias.

That said, it would be interesting to hear from those who really do share the kink, of which I am, as you observe, not one. But I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them.

Regarding the "shouldn't we be better than chimps?" point, I'd say, yes, generally, we should be, but we should also be open-minded about allowing venues in which our inner chimp can be expressed. And for some, erotic fantasy is that venue. And that's OK.

 

[filthytrancendence]

I think people don’t really understand what trauma does to people.

Very true, but at least part of that is because of how wide the range of effects is. My self-harm usually comes out as disordered eating, or neglecting self-care more generally. The presentation varies wildly. But yeah, if you see somebody being self-destructive, it's a pretty good bet that's a trauma response, regardless of what form that takes.

One of the thing that's really difficult to grasp from the outside of that is, sometimes what you're seeing from the outside is already harm reduction. Might seem crazy or stupid to you, but you've got no idea what the alternative is. The feelings that drive self-harm are large and dangerous. Traumatized people can't just get over them. As we heal and grow, we find more constructive and less destructive outlets for them. But sometimes that looks like me not eating for 2 days, and the fact is, there's many alternatives that are far, far worse.

PS- that came out in second person, not because I'm directing it specifically at you, Frances, but because I can't think of a better way to phrase it. Probably I need to go eat something...

 

[filthytrancendence]

I'm inclined to think that disinterested third-party observation is a better way to get at the truth than to listen to those with personal experience, which tends to be subjective, based on limited and possibly non-representative data, and motivated by bias.

Sounds like a really sold way to intellectualize your way out of accepting that bias is an inescapable and intractable part of the human condition. All experience is subjective, full stop. Including your disinterested third-party observation. You can't disinterest your way out of that fact.

Representative data is applicable exclusively at the population level. It's actively harmful to the understanding of individuals.

 

[SandraMaus]

In the rather loose collection 'Rules of the Internet 'you can find Rule Nr. 34 "If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions."
and Nr 35" If there is no Porn of it some is creating it right now "
Created was rule 34when back in 2004, a webcomic published on the Zoom-Out website and created by Peter Morley-Souter described the author's shock after discovering a pornographic parody of none other than Calvin and Hobbes.


A few years ago some very smart people who could do amazing things with numbers and maths got together to find the answer the most important question humanity and the universe has.

How much porn is there on the internet?

And the smart people came up with an answer. '30' they said. From all the content of the internet about 30%, is porn related.

I'm not sure if stories will be really cut it as an altern
ative.

 

[Bramblethorn]

fuck me dead.

Also against site policy.

 

[onehitwanda]

Also against site policy.

What if...

no, actually nevermind. That kink can stay unlocked.

 

[Nynah]

What if...

no, actually nevermind. That kink can stay unlocked.

There's a "la petite mort" joke in there somewhere that I'm not brave enough to flesh out.

 

[Astrotrain]

Necrophilia: crack open a cold one.

 

[Gamblnluck]

nd it’s not like you are a true afficiaando. I’m interested in the views of someone who is deeply invested in the non-con genre. Not CNC, not reluctance, but deeply invested in writing / reading about non-consensual sex. I don’t think you can speak for that demographic.

To be honest, I'm not sure what you really mean here as deeply invested in the non-con genre. Are you talking full blown rape, dismemberment, snuff, etc? Grabbing victims off the street and kidnapping for the sake of sex? Full unwilling imprisonment?
I told you above how I approach the non-con category.

 

[Astrotrain]

Well this thread sure took a strange turn, didn't it?

 

[Gamblnluck]

I went so far as to actually buy a rope and go online to learn how to tie a hangman's noose.

That brought back a memory. When I was kid, maybe ten to twelve, us kids were fascinated by the macabre. We didn't have the internet, but every kid in my neighborhood learned how to tie a hangman's noose. We'd seen in the westerns we watched. You'd hear one 'expert' tell another how the knot was supposed to be put behind one ear so the neck broke, etc.
I also remember when Marilyn Monroe died and we heard about an autopsy. We heard that entailed cutting open the body and removing all the guts. Us kids couldn't understand how that worked, but the idea was morbidly fascinating.

 

[onehitwanda]

flesh out

I see what you did there

 

[Gamblnluck]

I am going to say something about FrancesScott. I just read her non-con story about a poor idiot writing in his mom's basement. The devil pays the guy a visit and gives him what he had composed. It was a really good satire/tongue in cheek story. Of course poking fun at authors in general is fun.

 

[Gamblnluck]

This is the rest of my post.
I am going to say something about FrancesScott. I just read her non-con story about a poor idiot writing in his mom's basement. The devil pays the guy a visit and gives him what he had composed. It was a really good satire/tongue in cheek story. Of course poking fun at authors in general is fun.

Humor and satire have their place. This story ended at the right time. It was not preachy. I enjoyed the story. This was not the 'thumbing your nose' at a genre to get a rise out of the readers and in France's case, the readers responded with a great score. Kudos to the author.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I've used this in the past when similar issues have come up, but, at the risk of pissing off PSG, I'll quote my own writing here to express my opinion.

From The Gold Dollar Girls, a conversation between a stripper, Charlene (aka Clover), and her lawyer.

It's no wonder Omen is always going on about how good that story is.

 

[lovecraft68]

Only fans is the alternative to the porn industry as is Porn Hub, clips for sale and many other sites where women are calling the shots and many are filming with their partners. Because of this the industry itself has improved in its treatment of women, but there are always going to be shit hole sites and pieces of filth like James Deen, but there are alternatives and those alternatives force an adapt or die attitude in the main industry. true of any business when you think about it.

 

[lovecraft68]

I am going to say something about FrancesScott. I just read her non-con story about a poor idiot writing in his mom's basement. The devil pays the guy a visit and gives him what he had composed. It was a really good satire/tongue in cheek story. Of course poking fun at authors in general is fun.

I make fun of erotica/porn and myself all the time in stories. "He's my brother, what do you want me to do, fuck him? This isn't some shitty dirty story on a stroke site."

 

[FrancesScott]

I am going to say something about FrancesScott. I just read her non-con story about a poor idiot writing in his mom's basement. The devil pays the guy a visit and gives him what he had composed. It was a really good satire/tongue in cheek story. Of course poking fun at authors in general is fun.

Thanks for saying. It wasn’t meant to be mean, just satire as you say.