Testing readers 'morality'

[Gamblnluck]

You think the authorities know what they're doing? That's sweet.

--Annie

You may think that all law enforcement are dumb asses. I certainly hope they aren't if I ever had a serious problem.

 

[Gamblnluck]

@iwatchus Does writing about the Holocaust promote genocide? Does writing murder mysteries with a debonair villain encourage murder? Is Jeff Lindsay promoting serial killers as a way of Justice? Is a person who's been raped who writes about rape, pormoting men to rape? What morally reprehensible things can we write about without promoting those morally reprehensible things? Must we all write children's stories?

No. Not just writing about it.But if your story about the Holocaust was directed in such a way that the Jews deserved to be tortured and killed. They were the real villians and fully deserved what they got. You tell the story of a prison guard getting a hard on as he stomped on a Jewish baby's head and then raped the mother...etc etc. Yes. That has an influence.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Law dogs aren't all clueless. Assuming so is what gets criminals caught.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I'm just saying what we read has an influence. The better is is written, the more the influence. Get the reader to identify with the characters and you get a visceral reaction. That reaction has influence. Don't abscond because you think it is totally on the reader.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm talking about fiction in general. The rules, at this site, don't allow for realistict rape stories and because of that, the victim must get something out of it, is why much of the writing on this site might promote rape. Yes, some women, or even most, climax during the rape, it makes the experience more devistating not less in the real world. But no one writes about the aftermath.

No. Not just writing about it.But if your story about the Holocaust was directed in such a way that the Jews deserved to be tortured and killed. They were the real villians and fully deserved what they got. You tell the story of a prison guard getting a hard on as he stomped on a Jewish baby's head and then raped the mother...etc etc. Yes. That has an influence.

 

[iwatchus]

You think the authorities know what they're doing? That's sweet.

--Annie

I would consider it naive, but not sweet, to assume that everyone in a position of authority is an idiot.

In my experience, competent (and incompetent) people are scattered throughout all roles in society. Assuming anyone is an idiot just because of the group they are a member of is unfair.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I do write rape stories to sell at another site under a different penname. They aren't written for me; they are written for those who like that sort of story. I assume those men (and women) who buy the stories like evil bastards with the guts to rape. I don't make the people attractive. Well, some can be called handsome, but all rapist are ugly inside so I show them that way. But no matter what people say, men don't rape inorder to have sex. They are trying to destroy the woman. They want her to have a hard time getting over it, and they hope the women never do get over what happened to them. So, I write about them like that. The way real rapist are. No, I don't believe it drives some to rape, I hope that someone with the propensity for it uses the story so they don't have to do it.

The studies on this topic are mixed, and sites like Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and D2D are likely to err on the side of caution. They ban rape stories that are preseneted as having erotic elements in them. They also ban them from any writer that writes to the mainstream if rape is more than a small element of the story.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I do write rape stories to sell at another site under a different penname. They aren't written for me; they are written for those who like that sort of story. I assume those men (and women) who buy the stories like evil bastards with the guts to rape. I don't make the people attractive. Well, some can be called handsome, but all rapist are ugly inside so I show them that way. But no matter what people say, men don't rape inorder to have sex. They are trying to destroy the woman. They want her to have a hard time getting over it, and they hope the women never do get over what happened to them. So, I write about them like that. The way real rapist are. No, I don't believe it drives some to rape, I hope that someone with the propensity for it uses the story so they don't have to do it.

The studies on this topic are mixed, and sites like Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and D2D are likely to err on the side of caution. They ban rape stories that are preseneted as having erotic elements in them. They also ban them from any writer that writes to the mainstream if rape is more than a small element of the story.

I totally agree with what you are saying. What I took exception with were those authors who stated they had no moral responsibilities for anything they wrote. That if a person was affected it was 100% on the reader not the writer, the producers of that material. I write stories about well, 'less than noble' people. But I try to include it into a story in such a way it gets people to think.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

What I think I said repeatedly was glorifying an evil. So, yes, I think writing stories that glorify the holocaust are immoral.

You continue to assume that there is some universal black and white of good and evil and also a definite clear line defining glorification. There is neither. There is hardly neither. Not even close.

If you ask 1000 people to provide a pair of lists of what they considered good acts and evil acts, despite the factt hat you will see certain things repeatedly showing up on one list or the other, you would get 1000 totally unique pairs of lists.

If you show a subversive movie to 1000 people you will get two groups, one group (probably but not necessarily a minority) who will say that it glorifies the subject matter (these are usually the overly judgmental ones) and another group who say that it doesn't. Both groups watched the exact same movie. The movie being the control of the experiment, the group result indicates that the definition of glorification is simply an individual choice.

Somewhere scattered among us there are a handful of people who will tell you that Willy Wonka promotes child abuse. Like srsly. : /

You yourself are on record saying that the artist himself has a duty to police his own work on moral grounds. Well he already does. If he felt that he was doing something immoral, he would not release the work. Everyone's morals are different, sometimes wildly different. So what you are really expecting is for the artist to police his own work on universally moral grounds, but since there is never consensus on universal morals, there are no universal moral standards, so there are no guidelines for such policing. You are simply asking the wolf to shepherd himself, and he will always side with the wolf.

And we cannot make the argument that there are certain things that we all believe are immoral, because there aren't. For example, murder. Everyone thinks that murder is bad, but there are millions who are okay with the death penalty for crimes, or that killing someone in a war isn't murder (cha, right). What they are saying is, "murder is bad, unless I'm okay with it," which ultimately equates to "murder isn't universally bad." And that is just one very simple example.

There are people right now (hopefully no one on the forum) who are writing stories glorifying the Holocaust

Only by your definition. And you yourself say that the artist himself should police it. So what you are really saying is that the artist himself should police his work by your morals. That's 100% self-serving. It also means that you just want to have the authority of the watchdog without the responsibility that goes with it. So you either haven't though this through well enough at all, or you believe that your morals are superior to everyone else's. I'm quite sure that it's the former, but I certainly hope that it's not the latter. Either way, it's foolish thinking.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

NO it is not 100% in the eye of the reader. The way you write that image has a lot to do with how that perception is attained. I'll agree you are not responsible for the person's actions. But NEVER underestimate your influence.

Incorrect.

Everything is ultimately an inkblot in a Rorschach test. A movie at it's core elements is an inkblot. A novel is an inkblot. A song is an inkblot. Our smut pieces on lit are inkblots. If you show two people the same inkblot, one will see fluffy clouds and sunshine, the other will see bloody entrails and death. By your argument, we hold the person who blotted the ink responsible for the reactions. That's just bull.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

No. Not just writing about it.But if your story about the Holocaust was directed in such a way that the Jews deserved to be tortured and killed. They were the real villians and fully deserved what they got. You tell the story of a prison guard getting a hard on as he stomped on a Jewish baby's head and then raped the mother...etc etc. Yes. That has an influence.

If you watched that scene, how would you react?

 

[lovecraft68]

NO it is not 100% in the eye of the reader. The way you write that image has a lot to do with how that perception is attained. I'll agree you are not responsible for the person's actions. But NEVER underestimate your influence.
Just look at when one of these school shootings happen. Or many crimes, for that matter, the FIRST thing the authorities look at is his browsing history. Part of that is for direct contacts. But often they will allude to other sites, discussions etc. Why? because there is influence.

You're really preachy. Do you feel this way about LW? The category infested with rape and violence driven BTB stories? Before you answer keep in mind that Rape in the NC section is a sexual fantasy and kink, albeit an extreme one. In LW the rape is not sexualized it's brutal to give the cheating bitch hers, then of course there is the flat-out violence which means what is being sexualized is not a 'rape fantasy' but the glorification of pure violence aimed at women and to an audience who feels that way to the point some of them are unhinged in their comments.

If your claim is the author is somewhat responsible for how their stories effect people and what they make them consider, then again, you're saying this while supporting the worst known element in both authors and readers for it when it comes to that type of story so excuse me if I'm rolling my eyes at your indignation over authors who write certain material. Now, if that's what those people want, well, it is what it is, I don't have to read it, but don't come here on a moral high horse when that's the category you call home.

I also find it disturbing you picked the holocaust and a Jewish baby as your example. Beyond tone deaf and tasteless considering what's going on in this world right now.

 

[Gamblnluck]

If you watched that scene, how would you react?

In my present stage of mentality? It would not phase me either way. I might not even blink (which in itself is bad). I am inured to some things by the media.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Incorrect.

Everything is ultimately an inkblot in a Rorschach test. A movie at it's core elements is an inkblot. A novel is an inkblot. A song is an inkblot. Our smut pieces on lit are inkblots. If you show two people the same inkblot, one will see fluffy clouds and sunshine, the other will see bloody entrails and death. By your argument, we hold the person who blotted the ink responsible for the reactions. That's just bull.

And you are trying to avoid the idea that written material, stories, images etc have an effect. That if you produce something profound, it might have an influence.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

In my present stage of mentality? It would not phase me either way. I might not even blink (which in itself is bad). I am inured to some things by the media.

Further proving that any glorification is in the eye of the viewer. The artist could not force you no matter how hard he tried.

And you are trying to avoid the idea that written material, stories, images etc have an effect. That if you produce something profound, it might have an influence.

No, I am not at all. You are simply reading what you want to read in my comments, further proving that the reception is simply in the eye of the reader and I have no power over that no matter how clearly I state my case.

 

[Gamblnluck]

You're really preachy. Do you feel this way about LW? The category infested with rape and violence driven BTB stories? Before you answer keep in mind that Rape in the NC section is a sexual fantasy and kink, albeit an extreme one. In LW the rape is not sexualized it's brutal to give the cheating bitch hers, then of course there is the flat-out violence which means what is being sexualized is not a 'rape fantasy' but the glorification of pure violence aimed at women and to an audience who feels that way to the point some of them are unhinged in their comments.

If your claim is the author is somewhat responsible for how their stories effect people and what they make them consider, then again, you're saying this while supporting the worst known element in both authors and readers for it when it comes to that type of story so excuse me if I'm rolling my eyes at your indignation over authors who write certain material. Now, if that's what those people want, well, it is what it is, I don't have to read it, but don't come here on a moral high horse when that's the category you call home.

I also find it disturbing you picked the holocaust and a Jewish baby as your example. Beyond tone deaf and tasteless considering what's going on in this world right now.

For one, Millie mentioned the Holocaust. But yes. I see every story as having a potential influence. I'm not trying to say I have a moral high horse. I'm saying acknowledge the written word has an influence.
And yes in those LW stories where a person 'feels' the angst of his wife cheating because the author is good, it has an effect. You have to ask yourself if you think art mimics life or life mimics art.
If you don't think the written word has an influence you are a moron.. That is the whole basis for propaganda.
Few people are going to think after seeing a movie or reading a story, anybody is going to go out to reenact it. But to ignore the influence? Nope.
That was the gist of the thread from what I saw when I entered. {People saying 'I can write whatever and the consequences be damned. If my writings influences somebody, not my fault.)

 

[MillieDynamite]

I put trigger warnings on rape stories.

I totally agree with what you are saying. What I took exception with were those authors who stated they had no moral responsibilities for anything they wrote. That if a person was affected it was 100% on the reader not the writer, the producers of that material. I write stories about well, 'less than noble' people. But I try to include it into a story in such a way it gets people to think.

 

[MillieDynamite]

In all fairness, I brought up the Holocaust. Didn't mention babies and certainly wouldn't use the example that @Gamblnluck used.

You're really preachy. Do you feel this way about LW? The category infested with rape and violence driven BTB stories? Before you answer keep in mind that Rape in the NC section is a sexual fantasy and kink, albeit an extreme one. In LW the rape is not sexualized it's brutal to give the cheating bitch hers, then of course there is the flat-out violence which means what is being sexualized is not a 'rape fantasy' but the glorification of pure violence aimed at women and to an audience who feels that way to the point some of them are unhinged in their comments.

If your claim is the author is somewhat responsible for how their stories effect people and what they make them consider, then again, you're saying this while supporting the worst known element in both authors and readers for it when it comes to that type of story so excuse me if I'm rolling my eyes at your indignation over authors who write certain material. Now, if that's what those people want, well, it is what it is, I don't have to read it, but don't come here on a moral high horse when that's the category you call home.

I also find it disturbing you picked the holocaust and a Jewish baby as your example. Beyond tone deaf and tasteless considering what's going on in this world right now.

 

[AlexBailey]

One person’s fiction is another person’s influence. There are a lot of sick people in the world and poor mental health can be a contributing factor.

The movie Natural Born Killers has influenced many criminal acts - often cited or emulated by perpetrators of killing sprees. The story was written as a satire but some people connect with and glorify the characters and their actions.

I don’t think it’s actually an author’s fault when their dark works inspire dark acts but I would feel guilty if I wrote something that inspired a massacre or a rape. Once it’s out there an author has no control over how their work is interpreted.

 

[AlexBailey]

One of my kids’ friends went on a murder spree, killing another friend, his friend’s father and he tried to kill the mother too. He loved dark fiction including many of the influences already mentioned in this thread.

The murderer had signs of schizophrenia. He’d been in the foster system and was receiving mental health services until he turned 18. A year later he was sentenced to life.

He was into Dungeons and Dragons, Magic the Gathering, Glarping, the SCA, and lots of dark movies. I don’t blame any of these for his actions but he had spent a lot time fixating on weapons and using them. Plenty of his friends did too but none of the others did what he did.

 

[MillieDynamite]

At best, it's used as an excuse. However, the truth is that people prone to doing bad things don't require the encouragement of a story. They read the stories because of their desires. But the desires aren't born from the reading; their predilections birth the reading.

One of my kids’ friends went on a murder spree, killing another friend, his friend’s father and he tried to kill the mother too. He loved dark fiction including many of the influences already mentioned in this thread.

The murderer had signs of schizophrenia. He’d been in the foster system and was receiving mental health services until he turned 18. A year later he was sentenced to life.

He was into Dungeons and Dragons, Magic the Gathering, Glarping, the SCA, and lots of dark movies. I don’t blame any of these for his actions but he had spent a lot time fixating on weapons and using them. Plenty of his friends did too but none of the others did what he did.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

At best, it's used as an excuse. However, the truth is that people prone to doing bad things don't require the encouragement of a story. They read the stories because of their desires. But the desires aren't born from the reading; their predilections birth the reading.

This is exactly true. Ted Bundy was into porn in his youth, but the youth did not bring out his urges, his urges led him to porn.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

The actual evidence for a relationship between porn and crime is weak to nonexistent. Do a quick search, you 'll find papers like this one:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178924000703
Or interviews with experts like this one:
https://www.utsa.edu/today/2020/08/story/pornography-sex-crimes-study.html

It's interesting to see people in this thread being so absolutely sure of a particular position, when the scholars who study the field conclude ... that it's too complicated to summarize in a sentence.

--Annie

 

[Voboy]

What I took exception with were those authors who stated they had no moral responsibilities for anything they wrote.

Speaking for myself, that's not what I'm saying at all. I have responsibility for everything I write.

What I reject is the notion that I am therefore responsible for another's actions if they read what I write. They have agency. They have choices. More to the point, they have a billion variables influencing their conduct. Take any of those variables away, and their behavior might be quite different. More to my point, replace one variable with another and you won't necessarily get any difference in behavior.

Suppose I write an NC/R story where a stripper gets kidnapped and assaulted. Suppose you write a similar story. Now, suppose a man with a troubled upbringing and a checkered sexual past reads both stories in one night. He is a frequent customer at strip clubs, where he has occasionally been thrown out for making drunken advances. A week later, he's arrested because, while drunk at a strip club, he accosted a dancer.

Why do I have a moral responsibility for his crime? More to the point, why don't you have as much responsibility as I? He read your story too, after all.

If you don't think the written word has an influence you are a moron.

In general, ad-hominems aren't a good way to present your opinion. In this case, it also clarifies that you're not open to discussion. So... why bother discussing it with us?

 

[Pabiporffor]

I don't test their morality but I do ask they accept my characters may not share their morality. Should my characters influence my readers morality I bear no responsibility.