On 2nd person

[NoTalentHack]

First person is also very limiting.

They’re all limiting. Understanding the strengths/weaknesses of each POV (and arguably tense combo) is vital for choosing the best one for your story.

 

[AG31]

2nd Person Point of View. The story-teller/writer/author/narrator tells only what 'YOU' are, do, see, say, hear, think or otherwise experience.

'Bright lights, Big City' - Jay McInerney.

You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time
of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is
entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy. You are at a nightclub
talking to a girl with a shaved head. The club is either Heartbreak or the
Lizard Lounge. All might come clear if you could just slip into the
bathroom and do a little more Bolivian Marching Powder. Then again, it
might not. A small voice inside you insists that this epidemic lack of clarity
is a result of too much of that already.

"Can you give a snippet of example?" This was in response to @StillStunned's "with 2P there's no narrator."

I don't see what you posted as an example of "no narrator." If StillStunned simply meant, a narrator with no personality, then your post isn't an example. Your narrator is loaded with personality. They could be the MC.

 

[StillStunned]

If StillStunned simply meant, a narrator with no personality, then your post isn't an example. Your narrator is loaded with personality. They could be the MC.

I think that if there's enough of a narrator to have a personality, it becomes 1P POV. Perhaps even if there's no reference to "I" or "me", there's still someone telling the "you" the events of the story from their perspective.

I've tried 2P three times now: my published story You Know You Shouldn’t, and two snippets in the most recent Writing Exercise (this post and this post). In each case I tried to make the narration as neutral as possible. No "intrusion of the self", as one of my uni professors put it.

A strict retelling of events, with no judgment, no implied meaning beyond what the reader infers from the circumstances. They're all slightly creepy situations, and the reader's takeaway is probably "eeww!" But even in "You Know You Shouldn't" it's the "you" who knows they shouldn't. There's no narrator saying that what they're doing is wrong. The story only says that the "you" knows it's wrong. There's a balance between conscience and temptation, and as far as the story goes neither is inherently good or bad.

In the two Writing Exercise snippets there's even less of this, probably because they're much shorter. Does the "you" feel bad about their thoughts? Does it matter? Not to the story.

This, I think, is what I mean by there not being a narrator. The writer presents the words, and the reader supplies the judgment.

(This is off the top of my head. I'm in a bit of a hurry just now, so I reserve the right to contradict and renounce any or all of the above.)

 

[crookedletter]

I think that if there's enough of a narrator to have a personality, it becomes 1P POV. Perhaps even if there's no reference to "I" or "me", there's still someone telling the "you" the events of the story from their perspective.

Would you make the same case for third person? There's someone talking, whether or not they reveal themselves with an "I." What's the difference?

 

[StillStunned]

Would you make the same case for third person? There's someone talking, whether or not they reveal themselves with an "I." What's the difference?

In this respect I lump 3P with 1P, in that there's a narrator. But in the post you quoted I was just trying to make a distinction between 1P and 2P. I was referring to stories where the reader is addressed as "you", where I think it would (or could) still be typified as 1P if there's an intrusion of a narrator, even if they're not explicitly identified or named. Simply because they try to impose a perspective on the "you".

 

[filthytrancendence]

Simply because they try to impose a perspective on the "you".

I'd argue that the construction of 2P is definitionally an imposition of perspective on a reader. I think what you're arguing is that imposition should be done with a very light touch. I think you're absolutely right about that, but I don't think it's correct to say that is no imposition at all.

I think you're arguing that when it is a heavy imposition of perspective on 2P, that pushes it into the territory of 1P with extra steps. I'm not sure that's right either. I mean, I get what you're saying, but there's a big difference in how the work is received between a heavy-handed 2P and just writing in actual 1P.

I think it's the difference between an invitation and a summons.

 

[StillStunned]

Here's an idea. There are quite a few snippets in the Writing Exercise: You Can't Believe You're Going To Try This. Sixteen, in fact, by fifteen different authors, with different styles and different themes.

Perhaps we can use them for a more concrete discussion, rather than just talking about 2P in the abstract.

 

[crookedletter]

In this respect I lump 3P with 1P, in that there's a narrator. But in the post you quoted I was just trying to make a distinction between 1P and 2P. I was referring to stories where the reader is addressed as "you", where I think it would (or could) still be typified as 1P if there's an intrusion of a narrator, even if they're not explicitly identified or named. Simply because they try to impose a perspective on the "you".

Fair enough I guess. I don't need to belabor the point, it just feels a little needlessly narrow to me. You could make the case that everything is first person if the narrator seems to have any kind of personality. In Hitchhiker's Guide, for example, the narrator is dripping with personality, it's a character in its own right, though as far as I recall it never refers to itself in... first person.

I guess I don't see why a narrator speaking of third parties to whoever might be reading/listening and one addressing a "you" -- whether the reader or a character -- would be treated differently. If they're not an "I" in the story I don't see why we would call that first person.

 

[AG31]

I think that if there's enough of a narrator to have a personality, it becomes 1P POV. Perhaps even if there's no reference to "I" or "me", there's still someone telling the "you" the events of the story from their perspective.

I think it would confuse the discussion to call a story where the narrator uses "you" all the time 1p POV. Let's just get rid of the POV term when talking about 3 person narratives.

in the most recent Writing Exercise (this post and this post).

Yeah, these are pretty good examples of a neutral, no personality narrator. But then I wonder, why do it?

 

[Gamblnluck]

So many people say that they hate 2nd person but also so many people love to leave the lead character ambiguous and fill-in-the-blank so that the majority of readers can self-insert. Indeed, self-inserting is staggeringly popular amongst readers, and many many writers purposely write with this in mind.

If it's all about self-inserting, 2nd person shouldn't be a problem, and any writer who says that they hate 2nd person should be physically describing his lead characters in reasonable detail, otherwise he's copping out 100%.

They self insert themselves into the story line by identifying with the MC.That is far different than being told "YOU dropped you pants and bent over.." Ina wel written story, the reader self inserts, reading the emotions that the MC feels. That is easiest if the story is told in the first person. The reader sees what the narrator see and feels.
In some ways a a 2nd person story isn't an insertion, it is you being forced to 'feel, think, do, respond' etc. You aren't reacting the story, your reaction is dictated.

 

[Gamblnluck]

In this respect I lump 3P with 1P, in that there's a narrator. But in the post you quoted I was just trying to make a distinction between 1P and 2P. I was referring to stories where the reader is addressed as "you", where I think it would (or could) still be typified as 1P if there's an intrusion of a narrator, even if they're not explicitly identified or named. Simply because they try to impose a perspective on the "you".

I was just thinking of a story where one migh imagine the POV differently. February Sucks. Imagine Anderson using 2nd person. 'You sat and watched the football player come up and ask your wife to dance. You felt the world slipping. The love of your life walking away while you sat and felt hopeless."
The story would never have got a bit of traction. I feel the same way whenever I read what the author is telling me, as the reader what I am feeling, doing, etc.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I thoroughly enjoyed writing my snippet for StillStunned’s exercise thread, that being the first and only time I’ve ever tried it. It worked out well.

 

[XerXesXu]

"Can you give a snippet of example?" This was in response to @StillStunned's "with 2P there's no narrator."

I don't see what you posted as an example of "no narrator." If StillStunned simply meant, a narrator with no personality, then your post isn't an example. Your narrator is loaded with personality. They could be the MC.

If there's no narrator, there's a blank page, which is why I set out in the alternative all the words to describe the person doing the writing. Writers will always have 'voice', to a greater or lesser extent, they may even attribute thoughts and feelings to their character using free indirect style. Most successful authors sell themselves by their authorial voice. There really isn't much more to be said. This topic comes up regularly and there are perhaps hundreds of previous threads in which you can seek what you're searching for.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

They self insert themselves into the story line by identifying with the MC.That is far different than being told "YOU dropped you pants and bent over.."

Not that far different, no. If it is so far different, name a PoV or technique that is closer. You can't.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Not that far different, no. If it is so far different, name a PoV or technique that is closer. You can't.

Many readers insert themselves into a first person POV. Think again about my example of Feb Sux. They feel the MC's angst. That is insertion into the story when it is well written.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Many readers insert themselves into a first person POV. Think again about my example of Feb Sux. They feel the MC's angst. That is insertion into the story when it is well written.

That didn't answer the question at all.

 

[Comshaw]

On 2nd person​

My thoughts on 2nd. person? Personally I love 2 persons. Solo is fun, with 2 it's funner.

Comshaw

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don't see 2P as telling me what I am thinking or feeling. I see it as listening to the MC's internal monologue.

Back to Bright Lights Big City:

"You have to go slowly. You'll have to learn everything all over again."

The MC is talking to himself.

1P the narrator is telling you the story.
2P the narrator is telling herself the story.

 

[Britva415]

with 2P there's no narrator

What do you call the person in the story who’s saying “you?”

 

[Britva415]

I don't see 2P as telling me what I am thinking or feeling. I see it as listening to the MC's internal monologue.

Back to Bright Lights Big City:

"You have to go slowly. You'll have to learn everything all over again."

The MC is talking to himself.

1P the narrator is telling you the story.
2P the narrator is telling herself he story

1p is her telling you her story.

2p is her telling you your story.

I’m not pasting example links here right now but it would be trivial for me to go find some, if you care.

Your example is one form of 2nd-person voice. But there definitely are other 2p-voice stories which are not telling oneself a story while addressing oneself as “you.” There are definitely 2p-voice story where a narrator is addressing someone else and telling them what happens to them, what they do, what they think, how it feels to them - or what their imperatives are. “Them” meaning the second person, not the storyteller.

Talking to oneself with “you” as the form of address is grammatically second-person, you’re right. It just isn’t the only, or even the most common, second-person storytelling. Some stories intentionally address the reader. Some pretend like the reader is a character, but still address that character as “you.” Both of these are examples of the narrator not talking to herself.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

1p is her telling you her story.

2p is her telling you your story.

I’m not pasting example links here right now but it would be trivial for me to go find some, if you care.

Your example is one form of 2nd-person voice. But there definitely are other 2p-voice stories which are not telling oneself a story while addressing oneself as “you.” There are definitely 2p-voice story where a narrator is addressing someone else and telling them what happens to them, what they do, what they think, how it feels to them - or what their imperatives are. “Them” meaning the second person, not the storyteller.

Talking to oneself with “you” as the form of address is grammatically second-person, you’re right. It just isn’t the only, or even the most common, second-person storytelling. Some stories intentionally address the reader. Some pretend like the reader is a character, but still address that character as “you.” Both of these are examples of the narrator not talking to herself.

Well, we aren't talking about choose your own adventure.

 

[Britva415]

Well, we aren't talking about choose your own adventure.

That’s kind of exactly what (at least some of us) are talking about, except without the “choose” part. Just straight rails.

I can see that finding example links is called-for. That will have to wait till I’m on a better device later.

 

[XerXesXu]

There are three Points of View, Fist Person, Second Person and Third Person. There are two narrative standpoints, Fist Person and Third Person.

First Person Point of View is narrated from First Person standpoint. Second and Third Person Points of View are narrated from Third Person standpoint.

If you substitute 'One' for 'You', you get:


'Bright lights, Big City' - 'Pace' Jay McInerney.

One is not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time
of the morning. But here one is, and one cannot say that the terrain is
entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy. One is at a nightclub
talking to a girl with a shaved head. The club is either Heartbreak or the
Lizard Lounge. All might come clear if one could just slip into the
bathroom and do a little more Bolivian Marching Powder. Then again, it
might not. A small voice inside one insists that this epidemic lack of clarity
is a result of too much of that already.

Is that First, Second, or Third Person, Point of View?

Is that First or Third person narrative standpoint?

It all depends on one's interpretation, inclusive or exclusive. I think some people are also treating 'You' as interpretable in the same way as 'One'. Others, including myself, treat 'You' as exclusive and 'One' as inclusive, unless there are compelling reasons to do otherwise.

Do you think Jay wase a cokehead? Do you think the audience he was addressing, the contemporary literary set, were cokeheads? Do you think his book was written for the in-crowd who awarded literary prizes? Do you think his Second Person POV book would have been as successful if it had been about feeding a family on a limited budget?

You need to take these sorts of considerations into account when writing Second Person erotica.

 

[Britva415]

some people are also treating 'You' as interpretable in the same way as 'One'.

Do you mean, some people for the purposes of this discussion? Or do you mean, some authors when they write "you"? Or both of those things?

Anyway yeah, either way, a story in which "you" and "one" could be interchanged with practically zero loss of intention or meaning is orthogonal to the kind of declarative or imperative 2p language which a lot of 2p stories get written in, where "you" doesn't just stand for some generic personage for the sake of rhetoric, but "you" is a very specific character with direct and personal statements being made to/about them.

 

[XerXesXu]

Do you mean, some people for the purposes of this discussion?

Yes. Specifically, the observation by AG1 that the writer Jay McInerney could be the MC in that snippet. He probably was, he was writing in a 'knowing' way to his literary associates using Second Person POV.

Do you want to give us an example of what you describe? Abstract discussions are rarely illuminating.