Offensive is as offensive does

[Kelliezgirl]

I find that men’s perspective on matters of sexual assault (τὴν σκάφην σκάφην λέγοντας) is always so valuable.

True, I suspect it will be some form of "She wants it, she just doesn't know it yet."

 

[FrancesScott]

True, I suspect it will be some form of "She wants it, she just doesn't know it yet."

I agree that many forms of incest are actually also rape. In which case the rape is the more severe crime. I can conceive of some types of incest - maybe between siblings - being wholly consensual. I personally still view that as wrong, but less so than sexual assault, which is the correct name for all non-consensual sexual acts.

 

[StillStunned]

I find that men’s perspective on matters of sexual assault (τὴν σκάφην σκάφην λέγοντας) is always so valuable.

True, I suspect it will be some form of "She wants it, she just doesn't know it yet."

To be fair, it was in reference to the category of NonConsent/Reluctance. @Kelliezgirl you argued that people focus on the "non-consent" part, which might be very true. But even if that's the focus, it doesn't mean the category is limited to exclusively NC.

I don't think anyone's claiming that non-consent is benign. Or at least they're wilfully dense if they do. But on the "reluctance" side of the spectrum, it can be benign, like in my own story I mentioned.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

To be fair, it was in reference to the category of NonConsent/Reluctance. @Kelliezgirl you argued that people focus on the "non-consent" part, which might be very true. But even if that's the focus, it doesn't mean the category is limited to exclusively NC.

I don't think anyone's claiming that non-consent is benign. Or at least they're wilfully dense if they do. But on the "reluctance" side of the spectrum, it can be benign, like in my own story I mentioned.

I'm not arguing that there is anything wrong with reluctance stories, and frankly if you want to write NC, write NC. To each his own.
I'm just saying I don't see the logic behind non-consent being worse than incest. I find quite a bit of I/T personally distasteful and don't read it, But I'd like to see a credible argument why a non-consensual relationship is somehow less ick than a consensual one between two adults.
The whole "power balance" thing seems like a red herring.

 

[TheLobster]

So, you won't answer the question but instead resort to cheap personal attacks.

Your loaded, willfully misconstrued question that’s close to the infamous “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

Correct, I won’t answer that. My kind request to fuck off still stands.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Your loaded, willfully misconstrued question that’s close to the infamous “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

Correct, I won’t answer that. My kind request to fuck off still stands.

The guy advocating for NC starts talking about spousal abuse. No surprises there.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Indeed. Misogyny wrapped in extremely shallow moralism.

Says the person who has not written a story in the category. Are you basing that on your reading there or comments here?

Most people who disparage the readership there have tried but had little success in getting a story accepted. The formula for success there can be wrapped up in a single word, JUSTICE.

 

[filthytrancendence]

But I'd like to see a credible argument why a non-consensual relationship is somehow less ick than a consensual one between two adults.

I don't think there is one.

The only complicating factor being, if a child is produced via incest, now whatever effect the incest might have had upon that child has to be factored in to the ethical calculus somehow. But that's a hypothetical.

The incest story I wrote and published is brother-sister. I don't think there is another permutation I'd feel comfortable writing. Maybe cousins, I suppose. The power balance thing factors into the consent thing to varying degrees depending on the specific relationship. Incest isn't my thing, I just found a prompt that was interesting to me for tangential reasons and the story came out. I do think it's valuable to stretch out of my comfort zone and into more fraught subjects and challenge myself to handle them gracefully. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Not really up to me to decide. But I did my best.

I find that men’s perspective on matters of sexual assault (τὴν σκάφην σκάφην λέγοντας) is always so valuable.

The sarcastic always here is unkind. Men can be sexually assaulted and are sexually assaulted all the time. The fact I seem to have to say that out loud is a problem. Honestly it is most of that specific problem. There's a pervasive assumption that men cannot be raped, which is usually what leads to the situations in which many men are raped.

I agree a lot of men's perspective on SA is garbage brain nonsense, even about SA directed at men. I am also frustrated and angry with that. That doesn't make all men's perspective about it without value.

I think we all understand what @TheLobster was getting at in that initial comment. It was clarified explicitly by @StillStunned. I think lobster could have taken a step back and clarified himself, given the sensitivity of the topic, rather than forcefully disengage.

And now I've stepped into the middle of all of it so everyone can be angry at me now

 

[filthytrancendence]

JUSTICE

I find the implication that what you are alluding to is justice to be morally repellent.

That is why I don't write it.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don't there is one.

The only complicating factor being, if a child is produced via incest, now whatever effect the incest might have had upon that child has to be factored in to the ethical calculus somehow. But that's a hypothetical.

The incest story I wrote and published is brother-sister. I don't think there is another permutation I'd feel comfortable writing. Maybe cousins, I suppose. The power balance thing factors into the consent thing to varying degrees depending on the specific relationship. Incest isn't my thing, I just found a prompt that was interesting to me for tangential reasons and the story came out. I do think it's valuable to stretch out of my comfort zone and into more fraught subjects and challenge myself to handle them gracefully. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Not really up to me to decide. But I did my best.



The sarcastic always here is unkind. Men can be sexually assaulted and are sexually assaulted all the time. The fact I seem to have to say that out loud is a problem. Honestly it is most of that specific problem. There's a pervasive assumption that men cannot be raped, which is usually what leads to the situations in which many men are raped.

I agree a lot of men's perspective on SA is garbage brain nonsense, even about SA directed at men. I am also frustrated and angry with that. That doesn't make all men's perspective about it without value.

I think we all understand what @TheLobster was getting at in that initial comment. It was clarified explicitly by @StillStunned. I think lobster could have taken a step back and clarified himself, given the sensitivity of the topic, rather than forcefully disengage.

And now I've stepped into the middle of all of it so everyone can be angry at me now

Since we are exclusively talking about adults, I don't really buy the power imbalance thing. At the end of the day we are talking about adults with their own agency.

 

[FrancesScott]

I agree a lot of men's perspective on SA is garbage brain nonsense

I must remember to add #notallmen to my sarcastic and bitchy invective next time, or would that still be too shrill? Or maybe instead I should use the depressing but accurate “way too many men.”

Of course men get sexually assaulted - typically by other men, but there are also outliers. The point is, what is written here as alleged fantasy is most frequently women getting sexually assaulted. And it’s generally people who like to read or write such stuff who also enjoy telling women that they shouldn’t be bothered by it.

If people get off on rape porn, that’s their business. Just don’t try to justify it.

I over generalized, my bad.

 

[filthytrancendence]

Since we are exclusively talking about adults, I don't really buy the power imbalance thing. At the end of the day we are talking about adults with their own agency.

I agree to an extent. But older, more experienced adults have an increased capacity to influence younger, less experienced adults. I do not that necessarily leads to a problem of consent, but it could.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I agree to an extent. But older, more experienced adults have an increased capacity to influence younger, less experienced adults. I do not that necessarily leads to a problem of consent, but it could.

I'd say they MAY have an increased capacity, but that quibble aside, if we go with that, then the problem extends across just about every category. There is no shortage of stories across Lit with characters who have a significant age gap.

 

[filthytrancendence]

I must remember to add #notallmen to my sarcastic and bitchy invective next time, or would that still be too shrill? Or maybe instead I should use the depressing but accurate “way too many men.”

There is no way to construe what I said to you as accusing you of being bitchy or shrill. I said you were unkind. Because you were being unkind.

And no, you don't need to pander to me. Changing 'always' to 'usually' (or something along those lines) would change the character of your sentence from sarcastically unkind to sarcastically entirely fair.

And if you've no interest in being kind about it, that's fine too. It's what it is. Your sarcasm hit a nerve in me and I expressed that in the least confrontational way I knew how.

 

[FrancesScott]

Your sarcasm hit a nerve in me

When discussing rape apology, sarcasm is clearly an unforgivable sin. As it appears is offering a female perspective. May I recommend the ignore button. You clearly find me deeply irritating. There is an easy solution.

 

[filthytrancendence]

I'd say they MAY have an increased capacity, but that quibble aside, if we go with that, then the problem extends across just about every category. There is no shortage of stories across Lit with characters who have a significant age gap.

Again, we agree. I handle the potentially problematic aspects of an age gap with as much sensitivity to this reality as I can.

Obviously, not everyone does. I'm just explaining my own perspective on it.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I find the implication that what you are alluding to is justice to be morally repellent.

The idea is you have a wife cheating on her husband. She violates her husband's trust (which is considered more of a crime/ repellent than the sex itself). Often the man who is screwing the wife is getting as much of a thrill out of humiliating the husband as he is the sex he is receiving. Often he is married so there is a wife who unknowingly or knowingly a victim as well. That provides the angst in the story.
The justice is how the story is resolved. It can be as mild as a the husband moving on living a good life or like some people here think is necessary, full torture and killing.
Even reconciliation stories do well, if that reconciliation is deserved.
What is NOT accepted is the husband becomes a simpleton who sits meekly and accepts his fate. No man feels good when he is trounced and then takes it quietly nor when he reads or hears about it happening to others.
It's a simple formula for success. The challenge is making the story interesting.

I personally have my own problems with some stories. I hate to see a person destroyed mentally and physically. I cannot stand to read about a person who is stripped of his/her life permanently with no light at the end of the tunnel. A BDSM story where the person signs over all his rights and possessions permanently. A story where a person is enslaved for life with no hope of a reprieve. I don't see that as enjoyable no matter how well written.

 

[filthytrancendence]

When discussing rape apology, sarcasm is clearly an unforgivable sin. As it appears is offering a female perspective. May I recommend the ignore button. You clearly find me deeply irritating. There is an easy solution.

Look. I don't find you deeply irritating. I would be ignoring you already if I didn't care about your perspective. I'm engaging in the conversation because I do care.

I'm going to walk away from the keyboard for a while now.

 

[FrancesScott]

I'm engaging in the conversation

If I may offer my perspective, I’d review the way in which you are engaging in the conversation. Is there even a one in one million chance that you could be part of the problem? Try re-reading what you have written. Maybe you intended X, is it possible that a reasonable person could have interpreted what you wrote as Y? What about your tone?

I feel I am triggering you. I have no idea whether it’s what I say, how I say it, or maybe who I am. Perhaps all three. I have no intent of triggering anyone, but I’m going to express my opinions robustly, when I chose to say anything at all that is.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

The guy advocating for NC starts talking about spousal abuse. No surprises there.

In true troll fashion. (eyeroll) I expected nothing less from a shit-disturber like you. And I know that you get off on me saying this, but just so that everyone else on this forum is clear, you're the worst troll here and I'll add to the request for you to fuck off. Anyone else feel; free to join the petition.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

In true troll fashion. (eyeroll) I expected nothing less from a shit-disturber like you. And I know that you get off on me saying this, but just so that everyone else on this forum is clear, you're the worst troll here and I'll add to the request for you to fuck off. Anyone else feel; free to join the petition.

And drink...

 

[Cagivagurl]

Trolls....
LOL... That old adage springs to mind. "Pot kettle black..."

Cagivagurl

 

[SimonDoom]

This thread has gotten silly because, once again, members of this forum, who should know better, confuse the morals of the real world with the pleasures of the fantasy one.

Most real world incest is bad and nonconsensual.

Real nonconsent is bad.

Enjoying lit fantasy stories does not in anyway imply endorsement of immoral activity in the real world.

There's no need for "which is worse" conversations because more often than not, as in this case, it's just people talking past each other.

 

[Cagivagurl]

The problem is...
You cannot remove fantasy from reality...
One become the other....
For people who go on to inflict sexual assault, do so from first thoughts, which probably were dreams, or fantasy...
Anything produced, that fuels those fires cannot simply be swept aside as merely fantasy, and it's all good in fantasy world....
I know this runs close to censorship, but that is the reality...
Again, this is only my opinion... Not claiming it as factual...

Cagivagurl

 

[Kelliezgirl]

The problem is...
You cannot remove fantasy from reality...
One become the other....
For people who go on to inflict sexual assault, do so from first thoughts, which probably were dreams, or fantasy...
Anything produced, that fuels those fires cannot simply be swept aside as merely fantasy, and it's all good in fantasy world....
I know this runs close to censorship, but that is the reality...
Again, this is only my opinion... Not claiming it as factual...

Cagivagurl

It's Schrödinger's cat here in the AH. When it's something positive our words absolutely influence the audience, when it's something negative they absolutely don't. Funny how that works.

Although, admittedly it's a society wide problem. You can show all the sex and violence you want in a movie, but don't you dare have your characters light up a cigarette afterwards, because that will encourage kids to smoke!