Vance says administration may ignore court ruling

[Politruk]

3] If you won’t oppose fascism even as it rises to power, when will you? If not before it becomes ascendant, why after?

Only the Democrats can oppose it with any hope of success. As for parties, organizations and movements to the left of the Democrats, events will play out in exactly the same way as if they did not exist at all.

 

[Politruk]

I don’t buy your [small ‘d’] ‘democratic’ credentials. You are no democrat, and your party is no [small ‘d’] democratic Party. Here is the reality you won’t face:

It is impossible to defend democratic rights or any of the social interests of working people without seizing the unearned wealth of the billionaire parasites.

Of course that is possible -- it happens all the time, all over the world. The social democracies of Europe defend the rights and interests of workers quite effectively, within capitalism.

 

[Politruk]

The same tendency is seen globally. To reference your criteria consider Canada’s NDP.

‘Canada’s social democratic New Democratic Party (NDP) is campaigning for the April 28th federal election on a program of massive rearmament. It is following a war-path already well trodden by social democratic parties in Europe, serving as a key advocate for imperialist war and the corralling of workers behind Ottawa’s predatory global interests.’

‘The NDP is fighting alongside the entire political establishment to pour tens of billions of additional dollars into the Canadian imperialist war machine, and to ensure that the working class pays the price for it. This marks a continuation of the party’s record over recent years, which has included propping up Justin Trudeau’s pro-war Liberal government since 2019.’

NDP proposes “made in Canada” rearmament plan to ready Ottawa for world war

So what? Socialists fight for equality, not for peace. Effectual revolutions are not peaceful.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘Only the Democrats can…’

Except as you already ceded, they can’t.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘... defend the rights and interests of workers quite effectively ..,’

… except they do so by declaring rotten, sell out contracts to be ‘historic wins!’

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘So what?’

Outstanding! The all time, all purpose Democratic Party slogan! Simply excellent!

The Republic is fallen!

DP: So what?’

WWIII is opening!

DP: So what?’

Fascism is taking America!

DP: So what?’

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘Socialists fight for equality, not for peace.’

Democrats oppose peace AND equality.

They also have no theoretical explanations undergirding their proffered conceptions.

Socialists are the ONLY people who CAN and do stand for peace.

You cite criteria for a successful proletarian struggle for socialism.

I asked you to relate your own reply to your own history — and you won’t even do that!

Why would any sentient, bipedal creature back a faction that cannot articulate its own theoretical conceptions, cannot apply its own history, cannot offer any way forward, but only claim to be the ‘lesser evil’ [which it isn’t] and blames all that’s wrong in the world on the masses because they are are less than enamored by that utterly cynical and politically fraudulent behavior.

 

[Politruk]

Except as you already ceded, they can’t.

No, electing a Dem POTUS in 2028 would be quite enough to stop fascism. The only real danger is that there won't be any more elections.

 

[Politruk]

… except they do so by declaring rotten, sell out contracts to be ‘historic wins!’

The workers in social democracies are still far better off than ours.

 

[Politruk]

Another challenge socialists face is that we have yet to devise a workable model of socialism. We can explain what is wrong with capitalism, but we can offer nothing better to replace it with. History offers no examples of an efficient command economy. A decentralized form -- "guild socialism," or worker-owned businesses -- might work better, but who even thinks in those terms any more? And those worker-owned businesses would still be competing with one another just like capitalist enterprises. A worker-elected CEO's first duty would be just to keep the business in business -- he would be obliged to run the company more or less like CEOs do now, only with less pay differential between labor and management.

Social democracy works, in terms of broadly shared prosperity -- it gets better results than Stalinist command economies, and better than the American version of capitalism.

 

[LLCox]

 

[Politruk]

Just look around this board, Holy_Seduction -- you and I can argue endlessly over the best path to socialism or the best form of socialism, but how many other posters even think in such terms? RandyRebecca, and that's about all.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

Another challenge socialists face is that we have yet to devise a workable model of socialism. We can explain what is wrong with capitalism, but we can offer nothing better to replace it with. History offers no examples of an efficient command economy. A decentralized form -- "guild socialism," or worker-owned businesses -- might work better, but who even thinks in those terms any more? And those worker-owned businesses would still be competing with one another just like capitalist enterprises. A worker-elected CEO's first duty would be just to keep the business in business -- he would be obliged to run the company more or less like CEOs do now, only with less pay differential between labor and management.

Social democracy works, in terms of broadly shared prosperity -- it gets better results than Stalinist command economies, and better than the American version of capitalism.

An utterly bankrupt response. If this is the best the DSA — supposedly the best the Democratic Party has to offer — that is all the proletarian class needs to break permanently with the Democrats.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘… with any hope of success.’

Re: ‘hope,’ see yours at #54.

 

[Politruk]

An utterly bankrupt response. If this is the best the DSA — supposedly the best the Democratic Party has to offer — that is all the proletarian class needs to break permanently with the Democrats.

And then go where? There is no better path for them. Except for social democracy, there is nothing that would be an improvement on capitalism.

I strongly suspect you are still thinking in terms of "the theology of the final goal," which most socialist and even Communist parties have long abandoned.

 

[Politruk]

They also have no theoretical explanations undergirding their proffered conceptions.

------------------

Why would any sentient, bipedal creature back a faction that cannot articulate its own theoretical conceptions

Because most people, political activists included, don't care about theoretical conceptions.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘…most people, political activists included, don't care about theoretical conceptions …’

… and consequently, they are without serious, principled conviction about anything beyond electoral victory and accessing the lucrative levers of power.

What social and historical conditions have produced the Trump administration?

‘We don’t care!’

How is it possible to explain not only his election but his reelection?

‘We don’t care!’

Why are such questions so rarely asked, let alone seriously answered?

‘We don’t care!’

And what if the answers point NOT to Trump’s personal attributes but to the character of American capitalism itself?

‘We don’t care!’

But then, we have no basis on which to organize steadfast and principled opposition to fascism.

Same response applies.

 

[Politruk]

… and consequently, they are without serious, principled conviction about anything beyond electoral victory and accessing the lucrative levers of power.

What social and historical conditions have produced the Trump administration?

Nothing Marxist theory can explain, or could have predicted. The causes are much more prosaic -- mainly racism and cultural conservatism and xenophobia. There is no class-struggle dynamic in play here.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

Nothing Marxist theory can explain, or could have predicted. The causes are much more prosaic -- mainly racism and cultural conservatism and xenophobia. There is no class-struggle dynamic in play here.

The SEP and WSWS have warned of the rise of fascism for decades. And you?

‘We don’t care!’

 

[Politruk]

The SEP and WSWS have warned of the rise of fascism for decades.

We didn't need to hear it from them. Anyone could see the signs, which have nothing to do with Marxist theory. Marxists never predicted the rise of the original fascism. German Communists thought the real enemy was the "Social Fascists" of the SDP, and persisted in that delusion until they were at the gates of the concentration camp.

 

[butters]

Speaking of vance and this administration, long-standing very close friend from college days and now a Canadian conservative politician had offered an open invitation to vance back in December to come visit Canada anytime and be welcomed.
This invitation has now been rescinded, since it could hurt the Canadian pol's stats given vance and trump's remarks about the country:

Jamil Jivani, 37, who befriended Vance while they were both students together at Yale Law School and who is now a Conservative MP, had extended an open invitation to the American to visit his Ontario constituency.

However, he has now decided it is not a “constructive” moment to host his old friend, given the strength of anti-Trump sentiment in the country just now in reaction to President Donald Trump’s threat of annexing Canada as America’s 51 state and his imposition of 25 percent tariffs on its exports.

“Right now we have strong political disagreements, and that’s kind of how it is,” Jivani told Politico.

“They need to probably reconsider some of their rhetoric and their policy before coming to Canada. Our country should deserve more respect before being able to welcome them.”

lol First Greenland, now Canada and there are probably other nations just as anti-welcoming after just 100 days of the trump administration.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=b802981b12084d7cd16e63464f7e355d&ei=24

 

[Rightguide]

Then it won't happen until after the midterms.

The way things are going, impeachment will be a campaign issue in the midterms.

No it won't.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Anyone who posts on average some 75 posts / 24 hours fits my definition of a political operative.

You support the Democratic Party because your class interests are represented best by The Next 9% after the Top 1%.

Those are the people who benefit from Republican tax cuts for the rich.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Speaking of vance and this administration, long-standing very close friend from college days and now a Canadian conservative politician had offered an open invitation to vance back in December to come visit Canada anytime and be welcomed.
This invitation has now been rescinded, since it could hurt the Canadian pol's stats given vance and trump's remarks about the country:




lol First Greenland, now Canada and there are probably other nations just as anti-welcoming after just 100 days of the trump administration.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=b802981b12084d7cd16e63464f7e355d&ei=24

Why do you think Trump "invited" Carney to the White house. There is no way Carney is "inviting" Trump....that would bring riots to the streets of Ottawa that would make the trucker's convoy look like a festival.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

No it won't.

lol, how to tell if something is going to happen, just look to the opposite of what this moron posts.....