A place to discuss the craft of writing: tricks, philosophies, styles

[SinclairGroupLLP]

Let me share my latest frustration. And this is less of a frustration with writing as a craft, as it is with my storytelling.

Now, before PSG yells at me for pandering, let me be clear - I write what I want to write. I hope the audience likes it and they engage with it, and that it moves them in some way. That's my main motivation for writing now, since my first motivational goal (which was proving to myself I could do it) has been achieved.

So, the latest chapter of my third series came out a week ago, and the ratings, votes and comments are just way off from what I normally get and see. I generally prefer to get comments and go by the comments to see whether I hit my mark. But there have been no comments yet (which isn't nuts, the story only came out on Saturday) so until I get comments I default to look at the ratings. And, by the ratings, this chapter is the lowest ranked of any I've done in this series.

And this is WEIRD AF to me, because of all my stories, I felt like this chapter was the MOST in line with what the typical interracial reader is looking for. We had a 12 man gangbang in the beginning with the MC's mother (he wasn't present, but his girlfriends watched). There was a plot-advancing scene, then there was sex scene with MC and his girlfriends, and then a final plot-advancing scene that included a cuckold scenario for two of the ancillary characters, one of whom is a gang member. It was about the most tropey shit I've ever written in IR, and I expected it would go over far better than my usual stories, which include a variety of things that your average IR reader, in my experience, isn't a fan of, namely a lot of bisexual male and gay activity, along with the plot stuff. To be clear - all of the stuff was plot driven and made perfect sense for all the characters, so I didn't just throw shit in because I thought it would play well. But as I wrote it, I thought "man, this will play well" and it hasn't, lol.

My SO is in my head right now telling me to land the plane, so I guess my biggest frustration is that I don't seem capable of really guessing what my audience will like and what they won't like, and they don't always choose to tell me so I only have the flawed metrics the site provides to figure out if I'm giving folks the yum they want when they read my stuff. This is a pain in the ass.

I'm sure this has happened to all of you at some point, so I thought I'd share my angst in this nice thread that SS provided for us.

 

[Areala-chan]

I have more fun writing a story where I can deliver a twist on the formula or a surprise in the ending than I do when I'm just writing to category and providing the expected outcome. But I've learned if you want to do this, you must be fair about it if you expect your readers to appreciate it. Subverting reader expectation is one of my favorite tools in the chest. But I'm only able to do that because there are plenty of other stories out there setting those expectations in the first place, and there is nothing wrong with writing an expectation setter.

I love the question/answer dynamic though. If I can posit a question in the story that snares a reader's interest long enough that they keep reading until I reveal the answer, then I consider my job done well enough.

Dialogue is the most important element in most of my stories, and I try my best to make it flow well. I spend more time editing dialogue in my stories than anything else. And I definitely live by the "edit as you go" method for writing, as for me, the easiest way to get back into the groove is to read what I was writing the last time I sat down and pluck the crap which floated to the surface in the interim.

I don't think one should be afraid to abandon something that isn't working. You don't have to erase it and start all over, but setting it aside in your drafts folder or wherever and coming back to it later, whether that's a few days or a few years from now, is perfectly acceptable. As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, there's a good chance that "dead" story will have some pieces recycled into something you produce later on, and the "failure" which remains unseen by everyone else hopefully becomes a success celebrated in public.

 

[MelissaBaby]

1. Rules are there for a reason.
2. All rules are optional in certain circumstances.
3. Before honouring the spirit of rule 2, you should understand the minutiae of rule 1 - intimately.

Ultimately, though, write how the story needs to be written.

https://storage.googleapis.com/hippostcard/p/e1effa3f57121061be24d4950955d4c7.jpg


When I started writing, I didn't really know all the rules. In fact, I thought a lot of the rules were old fashioned, outdated. Style was what counted, and style trumped rules.

And I was mostly right. But when I look back at my early stuff, I often cringe, not because it's badly written, particularly, but because I can see how it could have been better. Because the fact is, you need to know the rules before you can break them successfully.

The illustration above is a painting titled Portrait of the Artist's Mother. It is an example of what was considered good, by the rules, portraiture in the late 19th Century.

The artist is Pablo Picasso. Before he broke all the rules, he had learned them.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

I love the question/answer dynamic though. If I can posit a question in the story that snares a reader's interest long enough that they keep reading until I reveal the answer, then I consider my job done well enough.

I agree with this 100%.

For me, I try to start off a story with an idea in my head of what question can I throw in to have the reader asking, and then find a creative way to answer it. It can just be as simple as "Will MC ever get the person they're lusting over?"

In my book series, I've set up a series of mysteries the main characters are trying to figure out, and teasing the answers throughout.

I find this tends to work pretty good to hook readers who buy into the premise and are not just here to jerk off. Those are the ones who still appreciate the sex, but keep coming back because they either want to know the answer to the question I raised (i.e. Who killed MC's girl?) or because they want to see what happens next.

Either one works for me, as long as they keep reading, lol.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I asked an editor once, some time ago, "What makes my writing work? Because I don't really have a clue." I asked, because I know my writing works for her, she's told me so, but I fully acknowledge it might not work for the next person. Although, based on comments received, there are many people saying the same things, so here's a sorta kinda philosophy, based on comments received:

Like a movie, like a film, very visual, uses all the senses.
Lots of observation, tiny details, what I call grace notes.
Lively but down to earth characters.
Emotional intensity, your heart on your sleeve.
Women with their own agency, not defined by the man.
Falling in love with my own characters (if I don't, why would I expect anyone else to?).
Prose that has the rhythm of poetry (that's probably the main thing I pay attention to in my edit, the cadence and cascade of the prose, its rhythm, the sing of the song). It's not for nothing that Leonard Cohen is my favourite songwriter.
Even in the most fantastic story, there's an element of complete and utter truth, something in fact very personal, real. I have a belief that readers, even if they might not consciously spot it, subconsciously they do, and they'll be prepared to suspend a million miles of disbelief and follow the story because of it.
My greatest delight is when someone comments, "Thank you both for sharing," as if they think they have just read a true story, but the leading characters are in fact completely fictional. That's when I know I've written something special.

 

[VallesMarineris]

Anne Lamott introduced a concept which I try to follow and which has significantly improved my writing productivity, efficiency, and quality: the “Shitty First Draft” (SFD).

When you first put a scene into the computer or on paper, accept that the writing is going to be flawed, often awkward, and sometimes just plain broken. Don’t try to make the first version perfect. It’s a doomed effort in any case, because you don’t know how the story is going to go. Don’t stop to fix spelling or grammar or punctuation. You want to put the right words down, but don’t let yourself get stuck trying to find exactly the perfect word.

Just write. When you see the blank screen or paper and you know it’s going be the SFD, it’s freeing. Just get down in words whatever scene you see in your mind. That’s the priceless stuff that you need to dig out and make real. Make hay while the sun shines. And don’t worry if you get some horse poop on your shoe. Everything will get cleaned up in the second draft.

Some word processors have a “Zen mode” in which you can only see a few lines around the line you’re writing. That can be helpful. I’m an expert-level touch typist, so I often just write with my eyes closed. Whatever gets you to just keep going until the scene or whatever gets to the end, that’s what you should do.

SFD is also the most fun way to write. See a scene, write a scene. See a character, write that character. Leave the grunt work of perfecting the story for later when you’re not inspired.

 

[Arcadia]

I certainly don't have much of a track record, but when I'm doing revisions, I read everything I've written out loud. I find that helps me with phrasing and flow, especially in dialogue. Hearing it out loud I think especially helps me spot if I've repeated a word or phrase too often (like especially ).

And on a final pass, I go through and look for things that I've selected at random -- like a movie characters might be watching, or a minor character name, or what's hanging on a wall -- and I try to give some thought to whether there's some way I can bring meaning to it instead. Like if the characters are watching a movie, maybe pick a movie that's reflective of their situation or foreshadows somehow what will happen later, that kind of thing. Maybe that kind of detail won't mean anything to most (or maybe all!) readers, but I enjoy it anyway

 

[Bamagan]

I debated whether or not to contribute to this thread, because I'm not particularly introspective when it comes to writing, and not sufficiently open about the times when I do get introspective. So that makes it less likely that anything I say about myself would be profound or thought-provoking.
Instead, I'll offer an observation or opinion about the old adage, "Show, don't tell." I think this maxim is often over-emphasized, or perhaps misapplied. Many writers attempting to follow the advice drift toward so-called 'purple prose' or wind up being overly particular and descriptive about details that few people would notice or remark upon if they were the character (or a ghost haunting the scene in third person). It can be detrimental, I would argue, if it results in an aversion to plain speech and clear description. To the extent that a story is a window into another world, a window with lots of filigrees and arabesques is not necessarily any better, or more artful, than one of clear glass... unless your purpose is to impress the reader with your window-making skills moreso than the world behind it.
I feel the 'show' advice works better if the author applies it to whatever 'moral' or 'meaning' they might hope to be conveying in their story. There can be a tendency to kind of look down on so-called 'strokers' as lacking a message, or at least saying nothing more sophisticated than, "Sex is fun!" But I have often seen authors using a character (or occasionally a narrator) as a mouthpiece for directly expressing a moral stance of some kind; essentially, an 'info dump' about what the writer considers to be the meaning of the story. I consider this to usually be a lost opportunity for describing a character who lives by an ideal and acts accordingly without feeling the need to explain themselves for someone else's benefit. Let that be the show and don't tell, and trust the reader to figure it out on their own.
In that regard, a simple short story of some folks enjoying sex and sex-adjacent shenanigans might be delivering its message more artfully than the intricately assembled novel with a preachy protagonist (or sidekick, or whatever).

 

[SimonDoom]

My SO is in my head right now telling me to land the plane, so I guess my biggest frustration is that I don't seem capable of really guessing what my audience will like and what they won't like, and they don't always choose to tell me so I only have the flawed metrics the site provides to figure out if I'm giving folks the yum they want when they read my stuff. This is a pain in the ass.

I'm sure this has happened to all of you at some point, so I thought I'd share my angst in this nice thread that SS provided for us.

I think this is a common experience. I experience it often. I've come to believe that there simply is a big random factor regarding story success. It might come down to how many other competitive stories were posted that day, or who happens to be looking for stories of that type that day. There might be a quirk in the title or the taglines that attracts or repels readers for whatever reasons.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

Anne Lamott introduced a concept which I try to follow and which has significantly improved my writing productivity, efficiency, and quality: the “Shitty First Draft” (SFD).

When you first put a scene into the computer or on paper, accept that the writing is going to be flawed, often awkward, and sometimes just plain broken. Don’t try to make the first version perfect. It’s a doomed effort in any case, because you don’t know how the story is going to go. Don’t stop to fix spelling or grammar or punctuation. You want to put the right words down, but don’t let yourself get stuck trying to find exactly the perfect word.

Just write. When you see the blank screen or paper and you know it’s going be the SFD, it’s freeing. Just get down in words whatever scene you see in your mind. That’s the priceless stuff that you need to dig out and make real. Make hay while the sun shines. And don’t worry if you get some horse poop on your shoe. Everything will get cleaned up in the second draft.

Some word processors have a “Zen mode” in which you can only see a few lines around the line you’re writing. That can be helpful. I’m an expert-level touch typist, so I often just write with my eyes closed. Whatever gets you to just keep going until the scene or whatever gets to the end, that’s what you should do.

SFD is also the most fun way to write. See a scene, write a scene. See a character, write that character. Leave the grunt work of perfecting the story for later when you’re not inspired.

That's the way I work too. Editing as I go is something that I used to do, but it didn't work out for me because I would never finish anything. However, while Anne Lamott's SFD is cool, Ian Fleming took it to the next level. When he wrote Casino Royale, he first wrote the entire book in a single session, like he sat on his pants and worked out the entire story without any detail whatsoever. My latest story is actually a triptych of 250-word stories loosely connected among each other; and each one of them started with something that doesn't even count as an SFD because it was even more barebones than a draft. It doesn't count as plotting either because it still had some prose.

The Zen Mode though is something that I haven't seen in much of the word processors that I've used. Ghostwriter's Distraction Free Mode is the one I tried, but it only made me anxious because I lost my train of thought very often, thus writing took double the time.

 

[XerXesXu]

OK, in the spirit of your thread, and remember. I'm offering only the opinion of somebody that knows shit about writing.
In your example, if the then is removed, it improves the flow. It is a space filler, nothing more...
If you needed to create a pause... Say so, or use something like.
"Ah... I guess that means you won't be coming home tonight."

As I said, I am no expert, just my thoughts.

Cagivagurl.

I read ‘Anatomy of a Murder’ recently. I found the author’s practice, of attribution of interiority using a colon, eccentric:

After a pause: “She’s forty-one.”

Again the merest flutter of the eyes: “What do you want to know?”

Savagely: “Not unless that dirty bastard Quill knocked her up!”

Coolly: “Excuse me, Mr. Biegler. Did you have a good lunch this noon?”

Stoically: “Are you telling me to plead guilty?”

Very casually: “Maybe you were insane when?”

Thoughtfully: “Hm … . Why do you say that?”

and so on.

I use ellipses to indicate a pause, also to break up dialogue to give cadence to speech. On a screen, it works much better than conventional punctuation.

 

[OddLove]

One thing I started doing recently while writing character dialog is I choose a one or more common phrases for the main characters. Since we all have one or more 'go to' auto-insert type phrases, I feel like characters should do. Example,

Character 1 might say, "Fair enough" and "Seriously?" a lot.

Character 2 might say, "Of Course", "Yeah", and "Well" a lot.

I don't know if it actually adds any value at all, and it might actually make dialog worse for some readers. I just do it anyways cause it makes my characters feel more real to me personally.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't know if it actually adds any value at all, and it might actually make dialog worse for some readers. I just do it anyways cause it makes my characters feel more real to me personally.

Same. I've got several recent stories where there's a simple thing a character says, that becomes part of (most often) her character. A character, for example, might start a sentence, "Ya, such and such," to make a change from "yes" or "yep". I had another character who on occasion found things, "Perfect!" It can be a handy little character defining thing, done in moderation. Always do things like that in moderation!

 

[HordHolm]

I don't have a lot to contribute to ideas of style - I'm not good enough to offer any insights (I'm not fishing, BTW). What I would say is this:

If I stop feeling some privilege, some sense of being lucky at being able to do this, I need to stop.
If it isn't working today, I try to mix up the environment - I do the ironing, or go for a walk. If I try to push it when it isn't working then I will dislike whatever I put on the page, and if I force my brain down that path I'll end up with the old, 'shit in, shit out' result.
I will usually need to spend more time refining dialogue than action.
I really can't do romance, which is problematic... . However, on the rare occasion I get something vaguely romantic that works I'm stupidly pleased with myself.
My syntax is shockingly poor on the first draft, and mostly it still is after the first edit. I usually catch poor syntax even on the tenth time of reading. So please forgive my dreadful syntax.
Lastly, for me as both a reader and writer, conventional formats are there for a reason. Yes, ripping up the rulebook can have value, but doing it just for the sake of doing it? That's where I tap out. Contrarianism for the sake of it leaves me cold.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

One thing I started doing recently while writing character dialog is I choose a one or more common phrases for the main characters. Since we all have one or more 'go to' auto-insert type phrases, I feel like characters should do. Example,

I absolutely like doing things like this, because it signals to the reader who that character is, and can add a little flavor. One of my characters constantly refers to the MC as “boy,’ which I added consciously as a way to flip the script - the use of ‘boy’ in some contexts in the past was a racist move, designed to belittle. Here, coming from a black woman to a white guy, it starts off that way and then morphs into a term of endearment.

That’s the kind of thing that I, as the author, like to sprinkle in and know that I did it on purpose, even if I doubt anybody caught what I was doing there.

This is another thing that I like to do in my writing, which I find amusing to myself. I sprinkle in all kinds of Easter Eggs -references to movies and song lyrics, sometimes taking things close to verbatim because it amuses me, and I hope that at least one of my readers sees it and says “Ha! I saw what you did there.”

 

[StillStunned]

In your example, if the then is removed, it improves the flow. It is a space filler, nothing more...

That's actually the whole point, to break the flow. With one word you stop the narrative and reset it. It indicates a pause, a moment of reflection and adjustment. Something happens within that moment, and the reader knows it without needing to be told.

But like I said, it works best with a very sparse style, otherwise the effect can be lost.

 

[VallesMarineris]

That's the way I work too. Editing as I go is something that I used to do, but it didn't work out for me because I would never finish anything. However, while Anne Lamott's SFD is cool, Ian Fleming took it to the next level. When he wrote Casino Royale, he first wrote the entire book in a single session, like he sat on his pants and worked out the entire story without any detail whatsoever. My latest story is actually a triptych of 250-word stories loosely connected among each other; and each one of them started with something that doesn't even count as an SFD because it was even more barebones than a draft. It doesn't count as plotting either because it still had some prose.

The Zen Mode though is something that I haven't seen in much of the word processors that I've used. Ghostwriter's Distraction Free Mode is the one I tried, but it only made me anxious because I lost my train of thought very often, thus writing took double the time.

I read once that Ian Fleming had a unique practice for plotting his novels. It fits here because technically it's the methodology of a successful writer, but I doubt anyone on this thread would follow it:

He used to spend several months in the Bahamas each year. To work on the next novel, he would don scuba gear and lie at the bottom of a swimming pool for hours, working out the story in his head. It must have felt like being in a sensory deprivation tank.

Re Zen mode, Scrivener (which I use for fiction) has a "Focus" mode, in which you can choose to have the current line, sentence, or paragraph highlighted, with the surrounding text grayed to barely readable. So if lose your train of thought you can refer back to what you've already written, but it takes enough effort that you eyes will naturally stay on what you're writing at the moment.

 

[StillStunned]

I'm a total pantser. I usually start with a scene in my head, or a line of dialogue, or some other tiny element of the story, and I start writing. I'll take a break and think about where I want the story to go from where I am at that point, and then go back and rewrite the start to fit it. It's like I'm writing forwards and backwards from the middle.

That moment when it all clicks in my head, and I see the story laid out behind me and before me, that's one of my favourite moments in the writing experience.

 

[HordHolm]

He used to spend several months in the Bahamas each year. To work on the next novel, he would don scuba gear and lie at the bottom of a swimming pool for hours, working out the story in his head. It must have felt like being in a sensory deprivation tank.

It's a bit of a pain, but I'm having my pool remodelled at the moment....

 

[ThatNewGuy]

If you've written anything, and particularly if you've published it for people to read, you're a writer. And for at least a short space of time your words and imagination have lived in other people's minds. You've occupied their head, they've occupied your world. You're a writer, you've lived the craft.

I love this.

For years I kept hearing that "edit as you go" is a terrible approach that nobody should use, but I can't make the Proper Way work for me.

Samesies.

I don't think one should be afraid to abandon something that isn't working. You don't have to erase it and start all over, but setting it aside in your drafts folder or wherever and coming back to it later, whether that's a few days or a few years from now, is perfectly acceptable

Absolutely. Sometimes the core idea is good, but it needs more time to bake. When a story doesn't feel like it's working, when I'm no longer excited to be writing it, I know it's time to set it aside. One story took three years and several failed attempts before I finally managed to "find" it.

Anne Lamott introduced a concept which I try to follow and which has significantly improved my writing productivity, efficiency, and quality: the “Shitty First Draft” (SFD).

I keep telling myself I'm going to try this, then I keep not trying it. Someday.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

I read once that Ian Fleming had a unique practice for plotting his novels. It fits here because technically it's the methodology of a successful writer, but I doubt anyone on this thread would follow it:

He used to spend several months in the Bahamas each year. To work on the next novel, he would don scuba gear and lie at the bottom of a swimming pool for hours, working out the story in his head. It must have felt like being in a sensory deprivation tank.

Nobody has the budget for that, for sure. I reckon meditating in a silence room might replicate that.

Re Zen mode, Scrivener (which I use for fiction) has a "Focus" mode, in which you can choose to have the current line, sentence, or paragraph highlighted, with the surrounding text grayed to barely readable. So if lose your train of thought you can refer back to what you've already written, but it takes enough effort that you eyes will naturally stay on what you're writing at the moment.

Oh man, Scrivener and I hate each other. Scrivener was partially at fault when I lost all my writing for the first time... already twelve years ago, so I'm always headbutting with it. But that's almost how Ghostwriter's Distraction Free Mode works, and it really didn't work for me. It's more of an issue with my brain than the software once again.

 

[Erozetta]

I'm a total pantser. I usually start with a scene in my head, or a line of dialogue, or some other tiny element of the story, and I start writing. I'll take a break and think about where I want the story to go from where I am at that point, and then go back and rewrite the start to fit it. It's like I'm writing forwards and backwards from the middle.

That moment when it all clicks in my head, and I see the story laid out behind me and before me, that's one of my favourite moments in the writing experience.

I don't even start with that.

Typically when I write, I sit down to a blank document and just start putting words on the page. Whatever comes to mind works.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

I see all these writers tools designed to stop distractions, but I have no idea how I could really write without having the ability to research stuff immediately while I'm thinking about it.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

I see all these writers tools designed to stop distractions, but I have no idea how I could really write without having the ability to research stuff immediately while I'm thinking about it.

It feels contradicting to say this, but the problem with so many writing tools designed to stop distractions, to me, is that they feel like bloated pieces of software that end up adding more distractions. The reason I will always use LibreOffice or OpenOffice to format is because they have a lot of buttons, and gizmos, and whatnot that will make me focus less on writing. Many alternatives that I tried that always promoted this non-distractive environment will always have a bunch of features that end up either being distractive, or the function is crippling. I already mentioned Ghostwriter's Distraction Free Mode, and then there's Manuskript which has a fullscreen mode that allows you to activate a timer or a wordcount goal, and the software will not let you get out of it until time runs out, or you hit that count. For plenty of people that would work, but to me it also cripples me.

I'm like you: I sometimes need to do a quick fact check, or go into the theasaurus, or do a quick research doing my best to not fall under rabbit holes that would end up with me not writing. Those pieces of software that lock you up into the word processor also do something that severely cripples my productivity: I do much better when I'm body doubling, either virtually or in real life, and most of my body doubling is virtually. I don't have a second monitor, so I have to keep a window open because just looking at my body double will make me write more than staring at a blinking cursor.

There's a reason why Obsidian still remains at the top for me and is that it solves all of these problems by removing everything altogether. Less is more.

 

[HordHolm]

This is another thing that I like to do in my writing, which I find amusing to myself. I sprinkle in all kinds of Easter Eggs -references to movies and song lyrics, sometimes taking things close to verbatim because it amuses me, and I hope that at least one of my readers sees it and says “Ha! I saw what you did there.”

I can't imagine not putting in Easter Eggs - it's like a little reward to myself. As far as I know not one person has spotted one yet as there are no comments about it. I am aware that a lot of stuff I throw in is very obscure, and these days there are fewer and fewer people who will get PG Wodehouse references. I enjoy a lot of the research for the references, too - like finding out who had the best selling 78 in the UK in 1911.