Vance says administration may ignore court ruling

[Holy_Seduction]

except for the Democrats

After yours in #54, no less. As I said…

Democrats will say anything.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘I vote Dem …’

Anyone who posts on average some 75 posts / 24 hours fits my definition of a political operative.

You support the Democratic Party because your class interests are represented best by The Next 9% after the Top 1%.

 

[Politruk]

I vote Dem for the same reason many Libertarians vote Pub -- what else ya gonna do? But I'm a longtime member of the DSA.

For many years I have dreamed of, at least, a multiparty system. But that really can't happen without proportional representation -- and that is not even an issue in the U.S. because most Americans do not even know what it means. In my experience elected officials don't know what PR means -- if I bring it up, they think I'm talking about racial gerrymandering.

 

[Politruk]

Anyone who posts on average some 75 posts / 24 hours fits my definition of a political operative.

I'm taking orders from nobody and nobody pays me.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘I'm a longtime member of the DSA…’

As with any organization in the orbit of the Democratic Party, the role of the pseudo-left Democratic Socialists of America is well known and is addressed frequently by the wsws.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

For many years I have dreamed of, at least, a multiparty system. But that really can't happen without proportional representation -- and that is not even an issue in the U.S. because most Americans do not even know what it means. In my experience elected officials don't know what PR means -- if I bring it up, they think I'm talking about racial gerrymandering.

Politruk:

How can you call yourself a socialist?! No seriously. You show no comprehension of the working class as a class. Do you actually buy the nonsense of capitalism as a classless system? That would explain the comments about there being no proletariat, etc.

Marxist theory postulates three social classes under capitalism and understands that the respective interests of each are in irreconcilable conflict with the other two classes.

You keep acting as if a proletarian class is an impossibility, and a worker party is an impossibility. If Marx’ theory is correct, how could you NOT have that that class perspective and party? And if you contend that it is NOT possible, how — pray tell — do you identify as a socialist?!?!

This is as messed up as frogs in a blender.

 

[Politruk]

Politruk:

How can you call yourself a socialist?! No seriously. You show no comprehension of the working class as a class.

Class matters. But there is no one working class, there are several -- even within the United States. A social class is not defined strictly by its economic function. A social class is a social entity, within which people freely socialize and freely marry and share a common world-view. Working whites and working blacks have interests in common, but they are not part of the same social class -- they are different slices of the same layer of the cake. They live in different neighborhoods, go to different churches, drink in different bars, and rarely marry across the racial divide. They have rarely joined forces politically.

Socialist does not mean Marxist. The socialist movement existed before Marx joined it -- and would have been better off without the pseudoscientific intellectual substructure Marx gave it. Determinist theories of history are always fundamentally flawed, and dialectical materialism is no exception.

The socialist movement needs to move past Marxism once and for all.

And my DSA comrades don't like hearing that truth any more than you do.

I don't take my socialist inspiration from Karl Marx. I take it from George Orwell.

 

[Politruk]

If the administration does defy a court ruling and won't back down -- what happens then? It should be grounds for impeachment, but Congress in its present formation will never impeach. What other solution is there? What else can break the deadlock?

 

[Politruk]

If the administration does defy a court ruling and won't back down -- what happens then? It should be grounds for impeachment, but Congress in its present formation will never impeach. What other solution is there? What else can break the deadlock?

This is an extremely urgent question.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘A social class is a social entity, within which people freely socialize and freely marry and share a common world-view…’

You will never be part of the solution. Never.

Your post displays the Democratic Party and its generally aligned satellites as a corpse rotting in its putridity on its feet.

Those looking for the reason for the rise of a fascist administration and the fall of the Republic need look no further.

I don’t agree that no party on earth can stop the rise of fascism; but I 100% concur that the Democratic Party/DSA/et. al. tendencies will NEVER align with that opposition.

You may return to your game of political tiddlywinks.

 

[Politruk]

I don’t agree that no party on earth can stop the rise of fascism; but I 100% concur that the Democratic Party/DSA/et. al. tendencies will NEVER align with that opposition.

But even you can see that nothing to the left of those tendencies will ever have any power in America in your lifetime.

 

[Politruk]

N.B.: Nobody but socialists ever uses the word "tendency" in a political-ideological context -- how did it become part of the jargon?

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘But even you can see that nothing to the left of those tendencies will ever have any power in America in your lifetime.’

Why are you even here, Politruk?

The extent of your cynicism and denial of the existence of any efficacious options begs the question. You [like other DSA lackeys] show yourself as completely demoralized. You lack an orientation of your own.

You beg for electoral support even as you inwardly believe that no force on earth can stop fascism! Yet you have no conception of how base, degraded and compromised this is!

If you truly believe the excrescence you’re posting, why do you even purport to function in the former Republic? You haven’t a shred of commitment to enter into serious struggle!

My observation suggests that Democrats take poorly to people addressing the ‘democrat party’ or put ‘Democratic Party’ in quotation marks. It seems not to occur to them that the reason is NOT any supposed lack of respect for the Party.

The reason this is sometimes occurs is because the words Democratic Party MINUS quotation marks casts a scurrilous aspersion on democracy itself!!

The DSA may have trouble holding onto members and chapters. We don’t.

If the DP and its ideological systems are looking for a strategy of complete irrelevance — they have found it in claiming impotence in the face of fascism.

 

[Politruk]

You haven’t a shred of commitment to enter into serious struggle!

I would die for one without hesitation. But I haven't a shred of hope for the existence of any serious struggle. This sort of quixotic Trotskyist nonsense will never start one. Your WSWS will never report on any revolutionary movement that leads anywhere.

And you know all of the above is true.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘Your WSWS will never report on any revolutionary movement that leads anywhere.’

What self-respecting revolutionary publication reports on ‘revolutions’ predicated on movements that have ‘anywhere’ as their destination?

Nor was that a product of the international Trotskyist tendency.

‘…all of the above is true.’

Before addressing this, please list the substantial claims presented to which you take exception.

 

[Politruk]

What self-respecting revolutionary publication reports on ‘revolutions’ predicated on movements that have ‘anywhere’ as their destination?

"Anywhere" includes revolution. And no Communist or Trotskyist revolution is going to happen in your lifetime.

 

[Politruk]

N.B.: Nobody but socialists ever uses the word "tendency" in a political-ideological context -- how did it become part of the jargon?

 

[Holy_Seduction]

"Anywhere" includes revolution. And no Communist or Trotskyist revolution is going to happen in your lifetime.

Again, please list the substantial claims presented to which you take exception.

You posted the video. A number of assertions were made. Which are objectionable to you?

 

[Politruk]

Again, please list the substantial claims presented to which you take exception.

You posted the video. A number of assertions were made. Which are objectionable to you?

Just the impetus behind the whole thing -- it can't lead to revolution, and nobody is aiming at anything else, so it's pointless.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘ … the impetus … it can't lead to revolution.’

Oh, come on! You can do better than that. Surely! Repeating your claim ad infinitum won’t make it so. At least, tell us what conditions WOULD create a pre-revolutionary condition. We did, after all, have one in the past. Many Marxists include the Civil War as the Second Revolution.

But take a stab at my question. What conditions actually would create a pre-revolutionary condition.

Real revolutionaries want to know …

 

[Politruk]

But take a stab at my question. What conditions actually would create a pre-revolutionary condition.

At minimum, it would require a crisis of legitimacy, a loss of public confidence in government -- but, here's the tricky part, in an American context it would have to be a loss of confidence in all government -- federal, state and local. Anything less would only lead to peaceful reallocation of powers between levels.

And even that would not suffice without a drastic change in the people's beliefs, a willingness to consider full-on socialism as an option both possible and desirable -- a condition that has never obtained in all of American history, not even during the Great Depression.

Nothing further left than Canada's New Democrats is ever gonna fly here.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘a crisis of legitimacy, a loss of public confidence in government …’

A loss of public confidence in government — at all levels. A drastic shift to accept ‘full on socialism.’ Nothing left of the NDP.

By the gods!

Where do you come up with this stuff?!

Well — I asked for something; and you choked up … exactly that.

Before proceeding, I’ll say that as massive revolt begins, you’ll be at a complete loss to explain it. You can stand on the sidelines exclaiming that ‘this isn’t happening!’ It isn’t real and it will never happen. BUT …here is what you are NOT to do.

No jumping in front in order to commandeer a genuine worker movement for your know-nothing/do-nothing Democratic Party. Our people find extreme hostility among workers owing to generations of betrayal. I don’t care if you agree or admit to that or not. You stay out of the way. Why?

Because others are very serious about arresting the fascistic tendency which you deem invincible. And I am not going to withstand 298M +/- workers to save the sycophantic skin of those masquerading as democrats. No more chances to do right. NONE. You do that and you’re on your own. If you are wise, heed those words.

Now to the points you served…

I won’t ask where you got your metrics. But I do ask, ‘what will cause this collapse of all confidence in government.’ What do DSA theorists say about this?

I ask because …

1] The Revolutionary Wars. Did they actually happen? Were the specified requirements actually met? In 1776, 1/3rd supported the Patriot cause. 1/3rd were United Empire Loyalists, and 1/3rd remained neutral. Most did not lose all confidence in government, did not shift loyalty dramatically, and did not go anywhere near Canada’s pseudo-left, petit bourgeoisie NDP.

So how was the 1776 Revolution possible when none of your named pre-conditions were met? And why serve up as conditions perfecting revolution conditions absent in the founding Revolutionary War? Does this look like the work of a serious student of revolutionary theory and practice to you?

2] If fascism’s ascendency doesn’t end all ‘confidence’ in government, nothing will. And what does ‘confidence’ in government mean? And what MAKES that so? Can you say what is required for the loss of said confidence?

More, what strategies and plans are in place to expose the untrustworthy nature of the regime? How do you intend to move society in a direction that will actually oppose the material and political interests of fascism?

3] If you won’t oppose fascism even as it rises to power, when will you? If not before it becomes ascendant, why after? If not when the Constitution is made superfluous, why after? If you won’t organize against fascism BEFORE opposition is banned, why would you oppose it AFTER that happens? Does that make sense to you?

I don’t buy your [small ‘d’] ‘democratic’ credentials. You are no democrat, and your party is no [small ‘d’] democratic Party. Here is the reality you won’t face:

It is impossible to defend democratic rights or any of the social interests of working people without seizing the unearned wealth of the billionaire parasites.

The petit bourgeoisie Democratic Party refuses to offer real opposition to bourgeoisie fascism because its wealth and social status depend on the bourgeoise.

The same tendency is seen globally. To reference your criteria consider Canada’s NDP.

‘Canada’s social democratic New Democratic Party (NDP) is campaigning for the April 28th federal election on a program of massive rearmament. It is following a war-path already well trodden by social democratic parties in Europe, serving as a key advocate for imperialist war and the corralling of workers behind Ottawa’s predatory global interests.’

‘The NDP is fighting alongside the entire political establishment to pour tens of billions of additional dollars into the Canadian imperialist war machine, and to ensure that the working class pays the price for it. This marks a continuation of the party’s record over recent years, which has included propping up Justin Trudeau’s pro-war Liberal government since 2019.’

NDP proposes “made in Canada” rearmament plan to ready Ottawa for world war

 

[Politruk]

Before proceeding, I’ll say that as massive revolt begins, you’ll be at a complete loss to explain it. You can stand on the sidelines exclaiming that ‘this isn’t happening!’ It isn’t real and it will never happen. BUT …here is what you are NOT to do.

No jumping in front in order to commandeer a genuine worker movement for your know-nothing/do-nothing Democratic Party.

That is quite literally the very best thing that can happen.

 

[Politruk]

1] The Revolutionary Wars. Did they actually happen? Were the specified requirements actually met? In 1776, 1/3rd supported the Patriot cause. 1/3rd were United Empire Loyalists, and 1/3rd remained neutral. Most did not lose all confidence in government, did not shift loyalty dramatically, and did not go anywhere near Canada’s pseudo-left, petit bourgeoisie NDP.

So how was the 1776 Revolution possible when none of your named pre-conditions were met? And why serve up as conditions perfecting revolution conditions absent in the founding Revolutionary War? Does this look like the work of a serious student of revolutionary theory and practice to you?

There is more than one kind of revolution. That was a bourgeois revolution. It did not change the social order and did not aspire to. It was like the Latin American revolutions -- led by criollos, pureblood whites born in the colonies, who were the local ruling class and resented the Spain-born peninsulares or gapuchines being set above them, but had no interest at all in raising the status of the mestizo peasant majority.

A revolution that does change the social order -- which clearly is the kind you want -- is much more problematic and can only happen under much rarer circumstances, like those which obtained in Russia in 1917 or China in 1949. I see no sign of similar circumstances emerging now, in the U.S. or anywhere else -- do you?

 

[Politruk]

2] If fascism’s ascendency doesn’t end all ‘confidence’ in government, nothing will. And what does ‘confidence’ in government mean? And what MAKES that so? Can you say what is required for the loss of said confidence?

You've heard RWs talk, haven't you? There is a widespread faith that the Founding Fathers were god-men and their work cannot be improved upon in its essentials. And that is not limited to RWs, it is deeply rooted throughout American political culture -- Americans tend to judge other countries' governments' legitimacy by how closely they resemble ours. It would take a drastic cultural shift to change that, and any effort in that direction will come up against what you might call antibodies, very strong ones.