When the Dom belongs in the doghouse...

[Pure]

sunny,

yes, i do see that the orignating post was about someone allegedly out of control, 'irrational' and yelling.

sunny: What I object to is loss of control hitting.. not necessarily hitting me, although that might get you hit back.. but the freaking out, punching walls/throwing things, uncontrollable temper sort of violence.

That has nothing to do with BDSM, and everything to do with temper tantrums, which imo, have no place in the relationship.

"Loss of control" is a pretty slippery term. The fellow who dents the wall with his fist is arguably deflecting from hitting a person.

As to 'yelling', the original question, outside of the Queens drawing rooms, is there a relationship without yelling? (OK, yeah, my grandpa and grandma, I suppose.)

But two further things puzzle me, Sunny,

1) How can 'temper' be separated from BDSM, IF you agree that some BDSM situations are 24 hr, and definitely 'relationship'--e.g., our moderators. Must every whipping do done 'in cold blood' to make it proper bdsm?

2) As your second point:

That, however, still doesn't translate into what I'll allow around my kid. Sub or not, I am a rabidly protective mother... something C respects. My relationship with him is separate from my job as her mother, and as her mother.. that kind of spaztastic, tantrum-y thing will not happen in our house... with the exception being the two year old, of course, who is expected to behave without decorum.

OK, RPM (rabidly protective mother). Has the issue simply become, how and to what degree do couples show 'temper'--angry behavior--in front of kids? It's a valid issue, no doubt, and we all agree we don't want little Sally to see mom get her jaw broken. But how it that the topic here?

If your 'dominate partner' does you, in some "BDSM" approved manner, isn't it away from the kids? Out of sight and sound? I presume so. So why are the kids being brought up to settle the matter of 'temper' in BDSM situations?

Just wondering

 

[h_i_s]

As He's more likely to discuss matters with a calm self controled rational mannerism rather than screaming in anger, my Master never has, and it's highly doubtful that He ever would resort to yelling at me. Besides, as His submissive it's always my aim to please Him and therefore highly unlikely that i would even step so far out of place as to anger Him.

It would take a whole lot of disobedience and dishonor on my part for Him to become so angry. We just don't go there in this relationship. Anger has no place in our lives, we each do our best to avoid anyone or any situation which could trigger negative emotions.

¸,ø¤º°sinn0cent°º¤ø,¸ proudly owned by, and devoted to INSIDEYOURMIND

 

[sunfox]

sunny,

yes, i do see that the orignating post was about someone allegedly out of control, 'irrational' and yelling.

sunny: What I object to is loss of control hitting.. not necessarily hitting me, although that might get you hit back.. but the freaking out, punching walls/throwing things, uncontrollable temper sort of violence.

That has nothing to do with BDSM, and everything to do with temper tantrums, which imo, have no place in the relationship.

"Loss of control" is a pretty slippery term. The fellow who dents the wall with his fist is arguably deflecting from hitting a person.

As to 'yelling', the original question, outside of the Queens drawing rooms, is there a relationship without yelling? (OK, yeah, my grandpa and grandma, I suppose.)

But two further things puzzle me, Sunny,

1) How can 'temper' be separated from BDSM, IF you agree that some BDSM situations are 24 hr, and definitely 'relationship'--e.g., our moderators. Must every whipping do done 'in cold blood' to make it proper bdsm?

2) As your second point:

That, however, still doesn't translate into what I'll allow around my kid. Sub or not, I am a rabidly protective mother... something C respects. My relationship with him is separate from my job as her mother, and as her mother.. that kind of spaztastic, tantrum-y thing will not happen in our house... with the exception being the two year old, of course, who is expected to behave without decorum.

OK, RPM (rabidly protective mother). Has the issue simply become, how and to what degree do couples show 'temper'--angry behavior--in front of kids? It's a valid issue, no doubt, and we all agree we don't want little Sally to see mom get her jaw broken. But how it that the topic here?

If your 'dominate partner' does you, in some "BDSM" approved manner, isn't it away from the kids? Out of sight and sound? I presume so. So why are the kids being brought up to settle the matter of 'temper' in BDSM situations?

Just wondering

I have a tendency to think you're pulling my leg at times just to make me post a big damned post. But I'll bite anyways.


- Loss of control doesn't always mean physical violence on a person. Driving your car into a pole because you're pissed off would be a definite loss of control. Thus the inference that hitting a wall because your panties are in a wad is a loss of control/temper tantrum. It's a personal choice, but I like to interact with grownups, who deal with their anger in a way that doesn't put holes in the walls of my new house. For instance, I don't have an issue with yelling, so long as it is not directed at me. I go outside and walk off a good 'mad', or go for a ride on my horse. But I do not hit the wall, slam doors, throw pots/books, curse at my SO or kid, or hit them or my dogs. This seems relatively straightforward to me.

You will note that nowhere in my post did I denigrate yelling. Yelling is pretty normal, but abusive/nastiness while yelling, that I don't go for.

Now, as to your further questions:

1) How do you separate BDSM from your temper tantrums... the same way I separate my job training dogs from my anger. When I am angry, either due to a dog I'm working with, or due to something else leaking over into my work, I stop working for a while and take some time to myself to cool off. Why should a submissive be expected to accept abuse from their Dominant because he's had a bad day? Taking your anger at an unrelated thing on your SO is not a good trait to display, and when whips are involved, seems even less responsible. I make no assumptions about 'proper' BDSM. That's your interest, not mine... what's proper for me may only be proper for me.. but then, that's the purpose of posting, innit? Putting our own point of view out there? Again, this seems straightforward to me.

2) The reason kids were brought up originally is because a BDSM relationship does not exist in a vacuum when you have children in the house. There were comments made that a Dominant (or submissive, for that matter) who displays anger/temper by violence.. punching walls/doors/throwing things/being aimlessly abusive either verbally or physically.... was fine and dandy if the submissive doesn't mind them, and I disagree with that with children in the house.

Kids learn future behavior and what can be considered 'normal' in human relations by what they grow up viewing in the home. So, do I think it is an issue for someone to say it's fine to let your kid see Daddy making holes in the wall and screaming at mommy when he's had a bad day even though it's not her fault? Yes, I do. You're free not to agree. That's the perks of a bulletin board. You won't hurt my feelings.. I'm way too vain for that.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... That's the perks of a bulletin board. You won't hurt my feelings.. I'm way too vain for that.

Oh hush, contessa.

 

[graceanne]

Ok, I keep telling myself that I'm not gonna post on this thread again, cause I don't feel that I need to justify me or K to others. As I said, I guarantee that if I went through you all's relationships that I'd find something that I felt was fucked up.

But I want to clarify a few things. First, I brought up K's temper to explain why I yell back at him. By yelling at him, and telling him he's being an asshole I keep him from doing things like hitting the walls and things like that. If I sit and play 'sweet little subbie' and let him rant and rave he just works himself up. Yes, he can be childish, but frankly you show me a person who isn't occasionally childish, and I'll show you a really nice bridge I have to sell.

 

[sunfox]

Oh hush, contessa.

You love that about me. Don't try to lie.


graceanne.. I don't want you to feel I'm pointing directly at you when I post. Your post was what brought the issue to my mind, but I feel, as I always have, that a person's life is their own. I'm posting from my own point of view, in regards to what I can deal with in my own relationships... don't feel like you have to justify yourself or your relationship, because you shouldn't need to. I like you very much, and that doesn't change just because I don't agree with you. I'd have no friends if that was the case, because I'm a contrary woman.

 

[graceanne]

You love that about me. Don't try to lie.


graceanne.. I don't want you to feel I'm pointing directly at you when I post. Your post was what brought the issue to my mind, but I feel, as I always have, that a person's life is their own. I'm posting from my own point of view, in regards to what I can deal with in my own relationships... don't feel like you have to justify yourself or your relationship, because you shouldn't need to. I like you very much, and that doesn't change just because I don't agree with you. I'd have no friends if that was the case, because I'm a contrary woman.

I'm not worried about it, or ticked or anything. And I wasn't responding only to you, but to several people. And frankly, I like you too. You know that. lol I'm sure it's not the first time we'll disagree.

 

[snowy ciara]

i'm so confused; need help from the 'sub rights' experts:

is it hitting that's bad, or just hitting for no good reason according to the sub?

is it a matter of what the dominate master hits/strikes with?

I'm not an expert, I just have a pretty good idea of what will work with me.

Hitting me in anger is simply not acceptable. It will not happen again. Ever. From anyone. I'm a sub, not a punching bag or a doormat. I will hit back, and I will end the fight and I will end it permanently if need be. I may die trying, but I'm taking the bastard with me if I do.

My parents have been happily D/s-ing along since before I was born. (I'm 20 now, I'm not sure if they were pre-marriage D/s people or if that started after. Info like this is better digested in small bites!) I didn't know this until recently. What I did know is the rules by which they handled arguments.

No hitting. Yelling is okay; yelling insults is not. Taking a time out is okay. Taking a time out is okay; storming out and leaving the other high and dry is not. There will be nothing thrown, tossed, broken or damaged. Children were not spanked. Mum had this bizarre idea that since SHE eroticized pain, we kids would be predisposed to do so, too. So there was nothing that could have caused confusion that way.

Random hitting is confusing to me. Someone playfully punched my shoulder at a basketball game today. It was someone I knew, and it was one of those "Awesome Play!!" punches that you see a lot of in a sports event. Some stranger hauling off and bopping me like that is going to start a fight. Or at least a "what the hell is your problem?" sort of scene.

Hitting as a form of foreplay, I think I can handle eventually. I think it was in the face slapping thread where someone (It may have been Ebonyfire or Ms. Shadowsdream, but I can't remember. I'll look it up and edit when I have a bit more time to play.) and she said that slapping one of her boys as soon as he walked in the door was basically a jump start into subspace.

Which leads us to the foreplay type of hitting. When you're all horned up and into some hot rough nasty sex, well then, that's pretty cool. So you grab 'em, slap em, and kiss 'em and get as nasty as you wanna be.

I snipped the part where you listed implements. In my mind, since hitting in anger is not going to be an issue, it comes down to whatever was negotiated between the relevant partners. That's the hitter and the hittee, and you and I have no say in that unless we are one of them.

We keep coming back to the negotiating thing. It just seems to me that if you hit in anger, you have a lack of control. I cannot give control to someone who cannot control themselves. I've been with that sort of person. I'd rather die than do it again. But if you negotiate to be a punching bag, and you're above the age of consent, more power to you, and I hope you live through it.

Sorry for following the hijack, but I felt it was somewhat important. As for the original topic, that isn't something that I've had experience with, so I can't offer an opinion there.

 

[Bandit58]

My ex husband has a temper. He did not hit me but would take it out by yelling and swearing. He is a farmer and would yell and throw things at the dogs if they annoyed him. If he could catch them they would get a good hiding. Several times I have seen him throw a sheep down and kick it in the head because when he was shearing it it kicked and struggled. He would yell at me and I would walk away and leave him to it - I am one who tends to avoid conflict if at all possible and anger makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Even now raised angry voices are an upsetting thing to me. It sends me back to those bad times with the ex and the old horrible feelings start to surface again. It has only been three years since I left him but any contact with him makes me feel bad. I still dream about him occasionally and I wake upset and disoriented. I'm afraid that I wouldn't be able to live with anyone who punched holes in walls. It's all still too fresh for me

 

[snowy ciara]

(((bandit))) Mine never hit his animals or anything, just me, when I defied him. I guess he loved the dawg better.

 

[graceanne]

Actually that's one of me and K's rules. No name calling, no saying things that are deliberately hurtful. Like . . . well I'm very sensitive about my intelligence. My mom used to tell me that I was stupid, and while I know that I'm not, it's still a sensitive point. So he cannot make intelligence comments. Things like that. I won't be put down. That's one of my hard limits. I lived in a house where I was constantly critisized, and quite frankly I got married to escape that. I won't go back. Ever.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Actually that's one of me and K's rules. No name calling, no saying things that are deliberately hurtful. Like . . . well I'm very sensitive about my intelligence. My mom used to tell me that I was stupid, and while I know that I'm not, it's still a sensitive point. So he cannot make intelligence comments. Things like that. I won't be put down. That's one of my hard limits. I lived in a house where I was constantly critisized, and quite frankly I got married to escape that. I won't go back. Ever.

digs at my intelligence are a sensitive spot for me as well. few words can hurt as much as when he calls me "stupid cunt" or "dumb bitch", but he only says those kinds of things when he's angry and ranting. i know logically that when he's in that mode, he doesn't necessarily mean everything he says, and i can accept it as a vent and nothing more. still, i admit it hurts.

 

[snowy ciara]

digs at my intelligence are a sensitive spot for me as well. few words can hurt as much as when he calls me "stupid cunt" or "dumb bitch", but he only says those kinds of things when he's angry and ranting. i know logically that when he's in that mode, he doesn't necessarily mean everything he says, and i can accept it as a vent and nothing more. still, i admit it hurts.

Me 3. But that was the legacy of the closest brother, who's had issues with me since before I was born. The ex just used it to his advantage.

 

[YinandYang]

I think having arguments, disagreememnts whatever are a natural progression of any relationship, a way to learn about each other, its how they are handled thats important. The outcome depends on how much of the Sub/Dom situations spills over into real life. My relationship with my partner is predominately roleplay, with a lot of spiritualism, honouring each other, respect etc. Sometimes when we argue, I have to fight the urge to submit to him, because its a natural instinct in me. He never plays on this, and things normally get sorted in an open realistic way. For us there are two types of arguments, the light and kinky kind that always end in a scene....or the serious ones that need to be worked through in a realistic way. I guess people have different bounderies as to how far they submit, a good master/dom should aim to know these bounderies in his/her partner.

 

[arctic-stranger]

For us there are two types of arguments, the light and kinky kind that always end in a scene....or the serious ones that need to be worked through in a realistic way. I guess people have different bounderies as to how far they submit, a good master/dom should aim to know these bounderies in his/her partner.

Excellent point. That is one of the issues with a full time relationship. And BDSM is not an excuse for spouse abuse, although the line might seem a lot more blurry than in vanilla relationships.

 

[Etoile]

Well... one thing I learned a few days ago.... don't slap your Dom when you're fighting, you will get slapped back.

Oh, now you tell me!

I have hit Daddy on more than one occasion. It was part of an argument and I was decidedly "out of role" - that is, I got too big for my britches and became somebody I didn't want to become. But after the most recent time I did it (it's happened maybe three times in five years) I figured out why I lashed out physically. It's because when I get out of control like that - when I'm standing up taller than I really am, when I'm faking how sure of myself I am - I want to be physically brought back down. I hit or slapped Daddy specifically so I would be caught and held in some wrestling move that didn't let me get away until I calmed down. It didn't work, of course - Daddy didn't know that was what I wanted, not being a mind reader after all! So instead I just got in trouble for it, which is to say I made Daddy mad. I beat myself up more over this than anybody else ever would...and I still don't feel that physical reassertion of control that I need to succumb to. I'm hoping it won't happen again, and if it does I hope I can stop short and realize why I did it and ask for help.

 

[Etoile]

Actually that's one of me and K's rules. No name calling, no saying things that are deliberately hurtful. Like . . . well I'm very sensitive about my intelligence. My mom used to tell me that I was stupid, and while I know that I'm not, it's still a sensitive point. So he cannot make intelligence comments. Things like that. I won't be put down. That's one of my hard limits. I lived in a house where I was constantly critisized, and quite frankly I got married to escape that. I won't go back. Ever.

This is an issue for me too. I have really truly rotten self-esteem when it comes to how my loved ones view me. I consistently believe that I'm not good enough for them, and no amount of convincing will break me of it...I think it might just be permanent. Instead of learning to stop feeling that way, I need to learn to not believe myself when I feel that way. If my Daddy calls me a stupid cunt, I internalize that. Even if it was meant as part of a scene - if Daddy is deliberately talking dirty to get us both turned on - I still believe it. We even had a night once that devolved into me being utterly uncreative, unintelligent, and plain stupid. Recently I came to realize that these were major issues for me, and that I need to not feel so bad about myself because it's making me insecure in my relationships. I asked Daddy not to call me those kinds of names anymore - what I said was "please don't make me hate myself" - and so far from what I can remember it's been okay. I haven't had any major self-loathing episodes while with Daddy for a while - it's mostly distrust of myself when we're not together.

 

[Etoile]

I have actually had a somewhat positive experience (despite my previous two posts!) with this type of thing. When Daddy and I argue over something, it's usually part of friendly and intelligent discussion. For example, we disagreed recently about how to find an example of a specific outfit/costume Daddy was interested in finding pictures of. I said that kind of stuff was available online, and Daddy said we'd need to go to the library to look at costuming books. We argued back and forth about this, and it was the type of argument where it was okay for me to be right because it wasn't about us at all. It turned out that I was indeed right - I found the exact outfit we wanted online. (Admittedly the library was closed at the time, so we couldn't look there!) And Daddy conceded that I was right, that with the proper searching skills one can indeed find that kind of thing online.

That's the kind of argument Daddy and I have that works intelligently. If it's something about me, my training, marks on me, Daddy and me...then Daddy is pretty much always going to be right, and I'm going to go along with eir decision. But we also have intelligent conversations, insightful discussions, and debates about certain topics.

 

[graceanne]

This is an issue for me too. I have really truly rotten self-esteem when it comes to how my loved ones view me. I consistently believe that I'm not good enough for them, and no amount of convincing will break me of it...I think it might just be permanent. Instead of learning to stop feeling that way, I need to learn to not believe myself when I feel that way. If my Daddy calls me a stupid cunt, I internalize that. Even if it was meant as part of a scene - if Daddy is deliberately talking dirty to get us both turned on - I still believe it. We even had a night once that devolved into me being utterly uncreative, unintelligent, and plain stupid. Recently I came to realize that these were major issues for me, and that I need to not feel so bad about myself because it's making me insecure in my relationships. I asked Daddy not to call me those kinds of names anymore - what I said was "please don't make me hate myself" - and so far from what I can remember it's been okay. I haven't had any major self-loathing episodes while with Daddy for a while - it's mostly distrust of myself when we're not together.

*hugs* I know what you mean. It took years for me to not believe the voice that said I was ugly and stupid and a liar. (All things my mother would call me when she was mad and looking to hurt me.) For that matter, I'm not like my dad. I found that the first step was when I cought myself thinking those things, I'd point out to myself that it wasn't my voice saying that, it was my moms. I don't know if this'll help you at all.

 

[Aeroil]

I think having arguments, disagreememnts whatever are a natural progression of any relationship, a way to learn about each other, its how they are handled thats important. The outcome depends on how much of the Sub/Dom situations spills over into real life. My relationship with my partner is predominately roleplay, with a lot of spiritualism, honouring each other, respect etc. Sometimes when we argue, I have to fight the urge to submit to him, because its a natural instinct in me. He never plays on this, and things normally get sorted in an open realistic way. For us there are two types of arguments, the light and kinky kind that always end in a scene....or the serious ones that need to be worked through in a realistic way. I guess people have different bounderies as to how far they submit, a good master/dom should aim to know these bounderies in his/her partner.

Along with being yelled at, I'm also a bit touchy when someone insults my intelligence. Bad memories about being yelled at when my parents split, so I don't like yelling at all...... As for insults to my intelligence, my brother STILL does that, he is one of the most ignorant, self-made fools I know, and yet he has the audacity to insult MY intelligence for the STUPIDEST reasons ever . *ahem* anyway, I shouldn't be ranting, needless to say I get quite irked when people do that.......

 

[Marquis]

Along with being yelled at, I'm also a bit touchy when someone insults my intelligence. Bad memories about being yelled at when my parents split, so I don't like yelling at all...... As for insults to my intelligence, my brother STILL does that, he is one of the most ignorant, self-made fools I know, and yet he has the audacity to insult MY intelligence for the STUPIDEST reasons ever . *ahem* anyway, I shouldn't be ranting, needless to say I get quite irked when people do that.......

That's exactly why I keep it above your head. Aren't I the nicest?

 

[Aeroil]

That's exactly why I keep it above your head. Aren't I the nicest?

lol, very kind of you Marquis.