The Miseducation of the American Boy

[Kelliezgirl]

Sorry. Say what you will about modern feminism, it didn't create Tate. He's an opportunist that caught a niche market and through radical extremist comments and behavior, turned it into a wild fire. The end result is very f'd up ideology that a lot of young men are taking to heart. And that is not a good thing. I have two college age sons. I got lucky that they both see Tate and his platform as a joke. But Modern Feminism creating him. Nope. he's completely self made.

Can you give me some examples of this "radical extremists behavior"?
That's kind of always the rub with this sort of conversation. People label someone as a "radical extremist" but they don't provide any context.
As an example, a sitting US Senator published an OpEd in the New York times about using the military to stop the riots in 2020. People screamed and cried that it was "radical and extremist" yet polls showed over half of all Americans supported it.
If we are going to label someone "extreme" we need to establish what the baseline is.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I certainly agree with you on this part. I haven't done much research into the matter but his primary followers and target audience seems to be very young confused men that struggle with finding their place in the world due to being made to feel like a villain just for being born a man. I'm not blaming feminists or women or any other group for it, though - but society's constantly shifting window of what a person is allowed to do, feel, think, and be. Many people that are made to feel like they're outsiders will flock to other ostracized people.

Still, the responsibility for acting poorly has to ultimately rest on the shoulders of the person who is misbehaving. Think of it this way; if someone is bullied, and eventually snap, and then does something horrible, is it the bullies fault? Partly, yes - but they're not the ones who commit the ultimate sin.

That's a good point.
Look at this thread, we have an article written by a woman being discussed by a bunch of women who are all arguing about how men should behave, and the answer invariably boils down to "more like women".
Is that what boys want? Is that actually healthy for boys? None of that seems to matter, it's just sort of an underlying assumption that boys acting like girls is "better".

 

[MillieDynamite]

Don't do it on my account. I'm done.

I think I’m going to ask for this thread to be locked. It seems impossible to have a reasonable conversation.

Em

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Don't do it on my account. I'm done.

I'm out, too, and I think it's more me than you @MillieDynamite

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Given we seem incapable of playing nicely and respectfully. I’ve requested this thread be locked for future posts.

I’ve had enough of trying to keep the peace.

Em

We are playing nicely. No one has attacked anyone personally, people are all disagreeing in a civil manner.

As for Tate and women "being responsible".
Actions have consequences, often unintended negative consequences. Every change you make, or attempt to make to a society will have myriad unforseen consequences.

 

[MillieDynamite]

You haven't done anything wrong. I didn't say I was out. I'm still here, just not going to discuss political parties, Jones, Tate, or Limbaugh any longer. By definition, a discussion of Miseducation is going to have some political overtures to it. I've met the worst of men and the best of them. And in my experience, the bad outweighs the good of the sex, but also I'd say the same is true of women.

I'm out, too, and I think it's more me than you @MillieDynamite

Edited for missing word.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

You haven't done anything wrong. I didn't say I was out. I'm still here, just going to discuss political parties, Jones, Tate, or Limbaugh any longer. By definition, a discussion of Miseducation is going to have some political overtures to it. I've met the worst of men and the best of them. And in my experience, the bad outweighs the good of the sex, but also I'd say the same is true of women.

Worst, best, I'd say it's about the same it just manifests differently. It's even more confusing when you're stuck in the middle trying to figure out where you belong. I look at myself and see a lot of good and bad in the man I was born as, but realize those same qualities would exist in the woman I feel I should have always been. I do my best to at least try to focus on the good.

 

[MillieDynamite]

As should we all!

Worst, best, I'd say it's about the same it just manifests differently. It's even more confusing when you're stuck in the middle trying to figure out where you belong. I look at myself and see a lot of good and bad in the man I was born as, but realize those same qualities would exist in the woman I feel I should have always been. I do my best to at least try to focus on the good.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Worst, best, I'd say it's about the same it just manifests differently. It's even more confusing when you're stuck in the middle trying to figure out where you belong. I look at myself and see a lot of good and bad in the man I was born as, but realize those same qualities would exist in the woman I feel I should have always been. I do my best to at least try to focus on the good.

Well said!

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Well said!

Biggest real difference is girls have way cuter shoes. LOL

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Biggest real difference is girls have way cuter shoes. LOL

At one time I'd have said more choices too, but these days... I've known a few guys who are sneaker freaks who have more shoes than I do.

 

[policywank]

I feel as though the extremes tend to feed on one another. Let's take it as a given for this purpose that we do need to give young men new and better models of masculinity. How do we do that?

It is a fairly clear element of human nature that if we want people to listen we need to be able to listen to them. Even if we truly believe that we are 100% correct (which is rare), we won't get anywhere with men if we insist that they can't be part of the conversation or are not allowed to say things with which we may disagree or which have been deemed too sensitive.

While I do strongly agree that we need to give young men new and better models of masculinity I also believe that many of the most prominent voices on this topic are not rational or open to dialogue. That destroys credibility and undermines the points they want to make.

Other, better men need to reject guys like Andrew Tait and encourage men not to listen to them. But that is not just a one-sided thing. Other better women need to reject the nonsensical notion that we should always "believe women" to the point of denying men due process and the presumption of innocence.

I understand why women feel that way just like I understand why we are reluctant to distinguish between different forms of sexual assault (the idea of lesser sexual assault plays into the manner in which women victims have been undermined in court). But those are nonetheless irrational points. And we can't expect to have a rational dialogue while clinging to them.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sometimes men hate women, and sometimes women also hate men. They call it the war between the sexes. Gonna happen to one degree or another. Hopefully, we can reduce that battle and the number of combatants. I'd make a joke at this point, but some folks around this place would call me Misandrist again.

I feel as though the extremes tend to feed on one another. Let's take it as a given for this purpose that we do need to give young men new and better models of masculinity. How do we do that?

It is a fairly clear element of human nature that if we want people to listen we need to be able to listen to them. Even if we truly believe that we are 100% correct (which is rare), we won't get anywhere with men if we insist that they can't be part of the conversation or are not allowed to say things with which we may disagree or which have been deemed too sensitive.

While I do strongly agree that we need to give young men new and better models of masculinity I also believe that many of the most prominent voices on this topic are not rational or open to dialogue. That destroys credibility and undermines the points they want to make.

Other, better men need to reject guys like Andrew Tait and encourage men not to listen to them. But that is not just a one-sided thing. Other better women need to reject the nonsensical notion that we should always "believe women" to the point of denying men due process and the presumption of innocence.

I understand why women feel that way just like I understand why we are reluctant to distinguish between different forms of sexual assault (the idea of lesser sexual assault plays into the manner in which women victims have been undermined in court). But those are nonetheless irrational points. And we can't expect to have a rational dialogue while clinging to them.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Other better women need to reject the nonsensical notion that we should always "believe women" to the point of denying men due process and the presumption of innocence.

No one on this thread has said that. Not sure who the admonition is directed at.

Em

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I feel as though the extremes tend to feed on one another. Let's take it as a given for this purpose that we do need to give young men new and better models of masculinity. How do we do that?

It is a fairly clear element of human nature that if we want people to listen we need to be able to listen to them. Even if we truly believe that we are 100% correct (which is rare), we won't get anywhere with men if we insist that they can't be part of the conversation or are not allowed to say things with which we may disagree or which have been deemed too sensitive.

While I do strongly agree that we need to give young men new and better models of masculinity I also believe that many of the most prominent voices on this topic are not rational or open to dialogue. That destroys credibility and undermines the points they want to make.

Other, better men need to reject guys like Andrew Tait and encourage men not to listen to them. But that is not just a one-sided thing. Other better women need to reject the nonsensical notion that we should always "believe women" to the point of denying men due process and the presumption of innocence.

I understand why women feel that way just like I understand why we are reluctant to distinguish between different forms of sexual assault (the idea of lesser sexual assault plays into the manner in which women victims have been undermined in court). But those are nonetheless irrational points. And we can't expect to have a rational dialogue while clinging to them.

You make some valid points, but the thing is you can't just encourage people not to listen to someone, you have to give them an alternative.
You've got a teenage boy who likes working out and playing sports.
He gets hit with this nonsense:
https://medium.com/equality-includes-you/the-surprising-link-between-fitness-and-racism-866039cec2ae

You are into fitness and sports? You're a white supremacist!

Or you've got Andrew Tate saying, "working out and being fit and healthy is good."
Why should the kid not listen to that?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

No one on this thread has said that. Not sure who the admonition is directed at.

Em

I think he's just pointing out that too much of the discussion occurs at the extremes, and not in the middle where there is room for reasonable compromise.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

No one on this thread has said that. Not sure who the admonition is directed at.

Em

Pretty sure she's drawing a contrast implying that we need more moderate and reputable examples on both the male and female front. Admonition directed at the greater "We."

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think he's just pointing out that too much of the discussion occurs at the extremes, and not in the middle where there is room for reasonable compromise.

It would be helpful not to employ straw man arguments.

Em

 

[djrip]

Let's take it as a given for this purpose that we do need to give young men new and better models of masculinity. How do we do that?

I don't think that's a given. Why does anyone need models of masculinity or femininity or whatever? I don't generally hear that we need to give girls models of femininity, actually. I think all every individual, male or female, needs, is to grow up around adults and peers who demonstrate basic levels of humanity. You learn how to not be a psychopath by being raised by non-psychopathic parents or guardians and hanging around non-psychopathic peers.

You don't need to learn how to be a guy or how to be a girl; "how to be a guy" just happens. Just get a bunch of guys together, don't tell them anything, and whatever they do, that's how to be a guy. Add in another guy who's doing something else, guess what, that's part of how to be a guy now, too. Same for girls. Guys and girls don't need to learn what guys are girls do; they define what guys are girls do. Whatever they find themselves doing, that's what it is that guys and girls do.

I don't think there's any need for any kind of reckoning where society gets together and figures out how to fix the problem. I don't think there is any problem, beyond the fact that individuals exist who can be problematic as individuals.

You make some valid points, but the thing is you can't just encourage people not to listen to someone, you have to give them an alternative.
You've got a teenage boy who likes working out and playing sports.
He gets hit with this nonsense:
https://medium.com/equality-includes-you/the-surprising-link-between-fitness-and-racism-866039cec2ae

You are into fitness and sports? You're a white supremacist!

Or you've got Andrew Tate saying, "working out and being fit and healthy is good."
Why should the kid not listen to that?

There's lots of bs out there. People don't have to pay it any mind. In fact knowing what not to pay attention to is a very important skill. You can just be fit, and not try to make it about anything else but being fit. You don't have to glom onto Andrew Tate in order to get away from people saying exercise is racist. You can just ignore both ridiculous positions and dozens of others as well.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don't think that's a given. Why does anyone need models of masculinity or femininity or whatever? I don't generally hear that we need to give girls models of femininity, actually. I think all every individual, male or female, needs, is to grow up around adults and peers who demonstrate basic levels of humanity. You learn how to not be a psychopath by being raised by non-psychopathic parents or guardians and hanging around non-psychopathic peers.

You don't need to learn how to be a guy or how to be a girl; "how to be a guy" just happens. Just get a bunch of guys together, don't tell them anything, and whatever they do, that's how to be a guy. Add in another guy who's doing something else, guess what, that's part of how to be a guy now, too. Same for girls. Guys and girls don't need to learn what guys are girls do; they define what guys are girls do. Whatever they find themselves doing, that's what it is that guys and girls do.

I don't think there's any need for any kind of reckoning where society gets together and figures out how to fix the problem. I don't think there is any problem, beyond the fact that individuals exist who can be problematic as individuals.

There's lots of bs out there. People don't have to pay it any mind. In fact knowing what not to pay attention to is a very important skill. You can just be fit, and not try to make it about anything else but being fit. You don't have to glom onto Andrew Tate in order to get away from people saying exercise is racist. You can just ignore both ridiculous positions and dozens of others as well.

The entire feminist movement for the last 50 years has pushed the idea that girls need role models, were they wrong?
https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/life/female-role-models-713464

Boys are no different.

We aren't talking about adults, we are talking about kids and teenagers who are still developing.
How is Andrew Tate's position that exercise and being healthy is good for you and important "ridiculous"?

 

[Red_Herring4]

You are into fitness and sports? You're a white supremacist!

I don't believe that is what the article you linked to is saying. It does say: "The fitness world has always favoured one body type over another — that is, the slim, white body — and people whose bodies do not match this norm are constantly left out of dominant representations."

That's a far cry from the way you've summarized it.

Or you've got Andrew Tate saying, "working out and being fit and healthy is good."

Andrew Tate is not a lone voice in the wilderness saying this. Most people of all stripes would agree with the statement "working out and being fit and healthy is good." Most people would also agree that many of the other things that Andrew Tate has said are disgusting. Like these little gems:

"If you put yourself in a position to be raped, you must bare [sic] some responsibility."

"So people defend depression. They get angry when I say this. Because they need this bullshit to justify their own failures. By admitting I’m right, they need to work hard to make themselves happy. To avoid the work – argue with me and pretend depression is a thing."

"I'm not a rapist, but I like the idea of just being able to do what I want. I like being free."

Andrew Tate doesn't represent a natural and inevitable response to feminist extremes. He's just an asshole who is being investigated for human trafficking and rape.

 

[djrip]

The entire feminist movement for the last 50 years has pushed the idea that girls need role models, were they wrong?
https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/life/female-role-models-713464

Boys are no different.

We aren't talking about adults, we are talking about kids and teenagers who are still developing.
How is Andrew Tate's position that exercise and being healthy is good for you and important "ridiculous"?

Those are role models for achievement and career. If you want to achieve a lot in science or the corporate world or whatever, having some role models may be helpful. To the extent that seeing someone of your own gender achieve success motivates you or makes you believe it's possible for you to do the same, having both male and female role models for achievement is a good thing. But I don't think anyone needs role models for how to be male or for how to be female. Because there is no particular way one should be male or female.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don't believe that is what the article you linked to is saying. It does say: "The fitness world has always favoured one body type over another — that is, the slim, white body — and people whose bodies do not match this norm are constantly left out of dominant representations."

That's a far cry from the way you've summarized it.



Andrew Tate is not a lone voice in the wilderness saying this. Most people of all stripes would agree with the statement "working out and being fit and healthy is good." Most people would also agree that many of the other things that Andrew Tate has said are disgusting. Like these little gems:

"If you put yourself in a position to be raped, you must bare [sic] some responsibility."

"So people defend depression. They get angry when I say this. Because they need this bullshit to justify their own failures. By admitting I’m right, they need to work hard to make themselves happy. To avoid the work – argue with me and pretend depression is a thing."

"I'm not a rapist, but I like the idea of just being able to do what I want. I like being free."

Andrew Tate doesn't represent a natural and inevitable response to feminist extremes. He's just an asshole who is being investigated for human trafficking and rape.

https://time.com/6242949/exercise-industry-white-supremacy/

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ar-right-is-recruiting-with-online-gym-groups


https://monitormag.ca/articles/the-wellness-to-white-supremacy-pipeline-is-alive-and-well

https://www.instyle.com/beauty/health-fitness/yoga-racism-white-supremacy



Some other Tateisms...

Every action you take is molding who you are as a person.

Every time that you sleep in.
Every time you are undisciplined, you are training yourself that it’s okay.
A downward spiral towards mediocrity.


Men are not designed to be comfortable.
They want to achieve.
They want to feel pain and suffering.
They want to conquer something.

The person who goes to the gym every day regardless of how they feel will always beat the person who goes to the gym when they feel like going to the gym.


Not hard to see why that would be more appealing than "you are toxic for being a boy!"

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Those are role models for achievement and career. If you want to achieve a lot in science or the corporate world or whatever, having some role models may be helpful. To the extent that seeing someone of your own gender achieve success motivates you or makes you believe it's possible for you to do the same, having both male and female role models for achievement is a good thing. But I don't think anyone needs role models for how to be male or for how to be female.

But it doesn't "just happen" the people all around us are our role models. You mentioned getting a group of boys together. They take curs and model each others behavior. They model the behavior of the adults around them.

 

[djrip]

https://time.com/6242949/exercise-industry-white-supremacy/

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ar-right-is-recruiting-with-online-gym-groups


https://monitormag.ca/articles/the-wellness-to-white-supremacy-pipeline-is-alive-and-well

https://www.instyle.com/beauty/health-fitness/yoga-racism-white-supremacy



Some other Tateisms...

Every action you take is molding who you are as a person.

Every time that you sleep in.
Every time you are undisciplined, you are training yourself that it’s okay.
A downward spiral towards mediocrity.


Men are not designed to be comfortable.
They want to achieve.
They want to feel pain and suffering.
They want to conquer something.

The person who goes to the gym every day regardless of how they feel will always beat the person who goes to the gym when they feel like going to the gym.


Not hard to see why that would be more appealing than "you are toxic for being a boy!"

There is no reason why anyone should listen to anyone who says you are toxic for being a boy, and there is certainly no reason why anyone should pay any attention to Andrew Tate.