The Doormat Discussion

[ownedsubgal]

I'm having a hard time explaining the take I have on this. OSG, and people like her, are capable of affirmative choices. We all are. If someone says, "Take the chocolate. You will like the chocolate," then her nature may well cause this sort of very submissive person to take the chocolate so as to avoid conflict. But if she is asked, "Would you like chocolate or vanilla?" she is perfectly capable of deciding. And our hypothetical non-assertive person can likewise put him or herself in situations where the outcome will not be pressured.


...So the decision can be made. Positive can be sought after. It is just that pressure will cause acquiescence, which makes a "no" all but impossible.

very well explained, Homburg.

 

[JMohegan]

this is truth. but while i may not be able to choose to whom i submit, i can certainly choose to whom i give myself. i did not initially choose to submit to my Master, but i chose to give myself, my whole self and all i could ever be, to him. had someone else come along and snatched me up instead...they would have owned nothing more than an empty shell.

This clears things up for me, osg. Thanks.

I apologize for the confusion; I previously misunderstood what you were trying to say.

 

[graceanne]

That's a very good way to think about it all I sometimes (and by "sometimes" I actually mean "very often") get too focused on abstract "what am I?" questions which always end with me trying to be what I think I'm SUPPOSED to be, not what I am.

I don't give off a victim vibe either, and while I think my personality can be very timid, I wouldn't describe my personality as a particularly submissive one. And wasn't the term "service-oriented" thrown into this discussion a few times? Yeah, I'm not service oriented at all. I guess I just started to think too much about how I am similar to a doormat, and not enough about the rest of me and about how I feel (as vague as that is).

Glad I could help. *hugs*

I don't feel like a doormat. I feel like a deer in the headlights sometimes, but not a doormat.

I can second that! LOL

 

[ataxia.girl]

He will often tell friends of the night we first met, when after dinner and comfortable conversation we had made plans to stay in the same hotel room together, in separate beds. i was wrapped securely in my flannel teddy bear-themed pjs, never for a moment thinking anything sexual might take place. then after some hours out of the blue he calls over to me, "come over here and suck my dick." i was like whaaaaa?? but instinctively i moved to do as he said, my mind racing with questions...why? where did this come from? was he planning this all along? has he ever mentioned anything before about how he likes his dick sucked? lol. and much later he answered those questions for me. no, he had not been planning to touch me sexually. He met with only the most pure and honorable of intentions...but he says something about my submissiveness and timid manner just lit a spark in him, and he was unable to hold himself back. when he told me to suck his dick, he was expecting at the very least some hesitation and questioning. what he was not expecting was for me to say nothing and instantly obey. that only served to further ignite the flames, and he says he knew at that moment he had to own me.

Mmmmmm Daddies and their inability to help themselves from doing naughty things. Although i assumed we would have sex the first night we met it was much the same. i was as usual not in any kind of sexual state. i was terrified mostly. i never once considered disobeying but nor did i feel the pressure i usually feel to be and act sexual. i am severely sexually repressed and yet am a very sexual person and i think that gets manifested in very strange ways sometimes. i crave to have sexual experiences and be used sexually but i have an almost impossible time positively seeking sexual gratification or even enjoying myself sexually in the moment of an encounter.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I think that how you describe doormat is all that's really important. Do you consider yourself a doormat? Because how you (and/or your PYL) think of yourself is all that's really important.

With Daddy, no, i do not feel like a doormat.

With my husband, sometimes and he feels it too and is frustrated by it. He has an innate desire to help me be stronger but by acquiescing to his desire for me to be\act stronger i feel even more like a doormat because it isn't really what I want. i do not internalize the values he wants me to have and own them for myself. i feel less like a doormat with him when i am brave enough to be my submissive self even though it sometimes makes him uncomfortable because it transfers more of an emotional burden to him. He feels a burden then to stop and think before asking me to do something for fear of wearing me out, rather than expecting me to stand up and say "no, i cannot take on anything else". For the most part we have met in the middle. i try not to be a martyr and say "no" or at least indicate i'm on the edge or craziness if one more thing gets dropped in my lap and to be brave enough to stand up for the few things i need to be authentic. He at least recognizes that my strong, independent woman show is largely for him, rather than for me. That it doesn't really bring me happiness although i do see it as useful and necessary. Were i in a 24/7 D/s relationship i would not likely choose a D who expected those things from me even if they thought they were in my best interest.

 

[Netzach]

What's shitty is that my dreams and aspirations don't exactly align themselves with my characteristics. Life would probably be easiest for me if I married rich (or at least wealthy) and was able to focus on hobbies and house-keeping and other relatively pressure-free things that I know I can do, but I don't want to be a housewife. I want to be a screenwriter, and help make movies and television shows, and I want to be successful and admired. This is going to be incredibly difficult for me. I am trying to change these qualities as much as a I can, not because I think they are bad, or unhealthy, or broken, but because I know that they could be a gigantic roadblock in my life. There are things I want to do, and the only way to make anything happen in that direction is to change my "timidness," or at least learn to ignore it.

With some exceptions I see a lot of myself in some of the things you wrote - a lot of what you're talking about hits me as "introvert" not "doormat."

Almost everything I've worked in has demanded that I put my natural introvert on the self somewhere and just DEAL and get up in the world's face more than I'd ever do were there not money motivating me. I like money. I like money more every year. I like the high of small chunks of success.

I actually find this is healthier for me, weird as that may sound. The further work takes me from my natural inclination to just live in my head and ignore people, in some ways, the more detached from the risk I can feel. I get better at this the older I get.

 

[BiBunny]

and what amazed me most about that night? the fact that i really wanted to serve and please him, that i really wanted to make him happy. while i have always submitted reflexively, previously it was always coupled with resentment or sadness or even anger. but there was none of that darkness with him...for the first time i felt eager to please and not simply driven to please.

and that is why, when a month later he asked me the question, "will you be my property? will you give your life to me?" i was able to say "yes!" of my own conscious choice and free will, perhaps for the first time ever.

I always knew that there was a difference in me doing what others expected of me and me giving myself to my Owners, but I never knew how to define it, really. But you just did it for me, LOL.

 

[Keroin]

[Beware: an entire threads-worth of pent up thoughts below]

Reading this thread has made me think a lot about what I've always seen as my own "timidness." I've never thought of myself as a doormat, and am hesitant to apply that label to myself, but throughout this thread I keep coming across traits and anecdotes that are very familiar to me. Throughout the last few days I've become pretty self-aware of my "timidness," the different ways it influences my life, and when and how it shows itself. I've also started to think a lot more (than I already have been) about how my "timidness" is a problem for me.

One of the main things I've come to notice is my reluctance to say "no." For a long time I denied that this was a trait I possessed because I can say "no" and in some situations its actually very easy. This reluctance mainly shows up around Seb, and I'm tempted to say "other men I feel at all submissive to," but that isn't quite right. I have trouble saying "no" to pretty much anyone who I am close to (friends, lovers, loved ones, etc) who has a dominant or even simply a big personality. The only exception that I can think of to this is my parents (of course ). If I really need to, I can say no to just about anyone, but it can be difficult.

Another part of my timidness is indecision. Like others here have expressed, making decisions, even on things as simple as what to eat for dinner, is a struggle. I don't want to make most decisions, and find it exhausting and frustrating when I have to. If I have a particularly strong feeling on something, I certainly won't stay quiet, but more often than not I don't care very much one way or the other and prefer someone else decide.

I'm also very dependent. I don't like being alone, and I've found that when I'm single I'll start talking A LOT with just about any dominant-ish male friend about EVERYTHING, and I've found that I become much more attracted to men who I wouldn't normally glance at, and I'll jump at just about any opportunity for intimacy that comes along. Before Seb, I was dating guy who, towards the end of the relationship, I realized I was only with in order to be with someone. And directly after that I got into a very sexual mentor/mentoree relationship that ended with me feeling very used. I was lucky to find Seb during that time, since he's someone who I actually really love and want to be with, and who I know for a fact isn't at all just a convenient warm body. This sort of desperate, dependent quality really bothers me, and something that I would change if I could, because I foresee it causing me a lot of trouble in the future.

Another main aspect of this that I've realized, really only in the last few days, is my lack of confidence, assuredness, and an over all "go-getter" attitude. I'm one of those people who would rather go through official channels and get very little done very slowly rather than call any phone numbers or go to anyone's office and get in anyone's face, which, I'm coming to realize, is something you often need to do in order to get anything done. I'm TERRIBLE at this. I've spent that last week emailing everyone at my school, trying to get something done, and nothing has happened until yesterday when I finally gathered the courage to make some phone calls. And even then I was only able to really do it after Seb got home (There's that dependence). This is the main thing that I'm trying to change, because my lack of those "go-getter" qualities could seriously hamper any possibility I have of getting into my chosen career.

I recently got quarter-finalist in a script competition and received a letter with a very encouraging note from one of the contest directors. My mother suggested I email him and ask how he got into that position, and what his career has looked like. That's probably a very good idea. and email like that would show interest, and possibly make me a valuable contact for the future. I shrugged off the idea. A few days later she suggested it again, and again I shrugged it off. I don't enjoy putting myself out there. I don't like sending unsolicited emails, because what if I'm overstepping some boundary? What if I'm bothering him? What if this guy already gets a ton of obnoxious ass-kissing emails? But even these are weak excuses, right? I just don't know how to explain how difficult it is to do something like that. It's hard in the same way that its sometimes hard to say no. I'm timid. My mother told me that she just couldn't understand my reluctance to do this sort of thing, and how she found my lack of assertiveness both mystifying and troubling.

How do I explain this to her? How do I explain this to her in such a way that she'll stop being disappointed with me? I know that she see's my timidness, specifically my lack of a "go-getter" attitude, to be a defect. Something that is broken that needs to be fixed. I know that the popular opinion here on this thread would be that I'm not broken, and I agree that I'm not broken, but I do think that I need to be fixed, or at least get a new coat of paint to hide under.

What's shitty is that my dreams and aspirations don't exactly align themselves with my characteristics. Life would probably be easiest for me if I married rich (or at least wealthy) and was able to focus on hobbies and house-keeping and other relatively pressure-free things that I know I can do, but I don't want to be a housewife. I want to be a screenwriter, and help make movies and television shows, and I want to be successful and admired. This is going to be incredibly difficult for me. I am trying to change these qualities as much as a I can, not because I think they are bad, or unhealthy, or broken, but because I know that they could be a gigantic roadblock in my life. There are things I want to do, and the only way to make anything happen in that direction is to change my "timidness," or at least learn to ignore it.

Hey Syd, I’d like to jump in here for a minute because I’ve been you, to some extent. My career was the biggest motivator for me to shed my timidity – the film business ruthlessly weeds out the weak, as I’m sure you’re already aware.

But first, congrats on making the quarterfinals with your script! That’s awesome and you should be really proud.

You are going to have to learn to be a little “forward” if you want to get ahead in your chosen field, that’s just the sad truth. I think it will help you to try to understand the other side. For example, your mother’s advice about emailing the judge with questions. Consider this, how do you feel when someone asks you for advice or expresses appreciation for your skills or achievements? Most of us are flattered. When I was established and novice stunt people would approach me and ask for advice I never felt imposed upon or put out, I felt flattered.

Even if this judge doesn’t have time to give you a response, or a detailed response, I doubt he would look at your enquiry as being pushy or bothersome.

Also, I’d say if you have someone in your life who gives you confidence, someone you respect – I’m guessing Seb – don’t be ashamed of that. This is a bit like Dumbo’s feather. At some point you’ll realize that you can fly without it but if it gets you in the air, hang onto it. JM has spoken of his coach and how he and his teammates used the coach’s set of ethics as their own, whether they really wanted to or not, and I think this is an excellent way to set yourself on the right path. If you can find someone in your chosen field that you can model yourself after, by all means do.

I could blab forever but I have work to do. However, I’ll just say to keep taking small steps forward, keep pushing the edges of your comfort zone, millimeter by millimeter. Big changes don’t happen overnight. If this career is what you want, then grit your teeth and do it. You can do it.

I used to be that person who was afraid to pick up the telephone and talk to a stranger. That was me. Dreams and goals can be amazing forces for change.

 

[00Syd]

Hey Syd, I’d like to jump in here for a minute because I’ve been you, to some extent. My career was the biggest motivator for me to shed my timidity – the film business ruthlessly weeds out the weak, as I’m sure you’re already aware.

But first, congrats on making the quarterfinals with your script! That’s awesome and you should be really proud.

You are going to have to learn to be a little “forward” if you want to get ahead in your chosen field, that’s just the sad truth. I think it will help you to try to understand the other side. For example, your mother’s advice about emailing the judge with questions. Consider this, how do you feel when someone asks you for advice or expresses appreciation for your skills or achievements? Most of us are flattered. When I was established and novice stunt people would approach me and ask for advice I never felt imposed upon or put out, I felt flattered.

Even if this judge doesn’t have time to give you a response, or a detailed response, I doubt he would look at your enquiry as being pushy or bothersome.

Also, I’d say if you have someone in your life who gives you confidence, someone you respect – I’m guessing Seb – don’t be ashamed of that. This is a bit like Dumbo’s feather. At some point you’ll realize that you can fly without it but if it gets you in the air, hang onto it. JM has spoken of his coach and how he and his teammates used the coach’s set of ethics as their own, whether they really wanted to or not, and I think this is an excellent way to set yourself on the right path. If you can find someone in your chosen field that you can model yourself after, by all means do.

I could blab forever but I have work to do. However, I’ll just say to keep taking small steps forward, keep pushing the edges of your comfort zone, millimeter by millimeter. Big changes don’t happen overnight. If this career is what you want, then grit your teeth and do it. You can do it.

I used to be that person who was afraid to pick up the telephone and talk to a stranger. That was me. Dreams and goals can be amazing forces for change.

Thank you so much for that, it's exactly the sort of thing that I need to hear

I might be going on a field trip with my school to the Austin Film Festival Screenwriters Conference where I'll be forced to be forward and talk to people and ask questions. I think it will be really good for me, and I'm really looking forward to the event. Also, literally minutes ago, Seb pushed me to call my school again because what I needed to get done just wasn't happening fast enough. I was very reluctant, but made the call, and everything fixed itself within seconds That certainly made me a bit more confident. I guess Seb is sort of like my Dumbo feather (however silly of a metaphor that is ).

Again, thank you so much for this post. I really admire you and its so nice to have a friend who not only knows where I am, but also where I'm (hopefully!) going.

 

[BiBunny]

You know, I've been thinking. It's certainly not just in discussions like this that I've been called lazy, ambitionless, unwilling to take responsibility, etc. I've heard it my entire life by, you guessed it, my mother.

I don't know what I want to do with my life. I feel as if this is a huge disappointment to everyone around me. What I want is what will do the most good for the people around me, and I haven't yet figured out what that is. A very large part of me wishes that someone would make this decision for me, so I could just concentrate on doing what I have to do to achieve that end, rather than spending all my time worrying if I'm doing the right thing.

I'm like ataxiagirl and osg in that respect. I'm sick of hearing "Whatever makes you happy." I don't know what makes me happy. Whatever makes you happy is what makes me happy.

The funny thing is, though, no one I've ever worked for or been in a position of subordinance (I think I just made up a word) to would ever say those things about me. In a situation where others are counting on me not to screw up, I'm conscientious and mostly pleasant, even though I tend to be pretty quiet and keep to myself. My current boss adores me.

Take from that what you will, I guess.

 

[graceanne]

With some exceptions I see a lot of myself in some of the things you wrote - a lot of what you're talking about hits me as "introvert" not "doormat."

That's how I see what she's written. Honestly some of the strongest willed people I've ever met were introverts and shy.

You know, I've been thinking. It's certainly not just in discussions like this that I've been called lazy, ambitionless, unwilling to take responsibility, etc. I've heard it my entire life by, you guessed it, my mother.

I KNEW it! I almost posted something to the affect of this, wondering if the person who's the loudest in criticizing you is your mother, but I didn't. Don't know why - probably figured it would derail the original intent of this thread or something.

Just remember what netz said - no matter what you do, she'll find a way to criticize you.

 

[BiBunny]

That's how I see what she's written. Honestly some of the strongest willed people I've ever met were introverts and shy.



I KNEW it! I almost posted something to the affect of this, wondering if the person who's the loudest in criticizing you is your mother, but I didn't. Don't know why - probably figured it would derail the original intent of this thread or something.

Just remember what netz said - no matter what you do, she'll find a way to criticize you.

I know that's right!

 

[SimonBrooke]

I might be going on a field trip with my school to the Austin Film Festival Screenwriters Conference where I'll be forced to be forward and talk to people and ask questions. I think it will be really good for me, and I'm really looking forward to the event. Also, literally minutes ago, Seb pushed me to call my school again because what I needed to get done just wasn't happening fast enough. I was very reluctant, but made the call, and everything fixed itself within seconds That certainly made me a bit more confident. I guess Seb is sort of like my Dumbo feather (however silly of a metaphor that is ).

So can you get Seb to push/order you to write the email to the competition judge? It isn't 'unsolicited' - the judge wrote to you, it's polite to reply!

 

[Netzach]

i think part of it is just evolution and genetics. There was a time when the smartest mate for a woman to choose was the guy who took everyone else out. He offered the best chance of survival. i fully believe its harder for women in general to say no than it is for men. Some women have zero problem with it but i think they are of a significantly lower proportion of all women than men who have no problems saying no.

I think your evolutionary perspective makes sense, but in a less direct fashion. What *has* worked for women, and what our functional psychology seems to gravitate towards is a better ability to create detente, relationships, and alliances. Saying direct "no" is an affront to those things. It's in historical female best interests to say their "nos" in very indirect manner, where everyone walks away still feeling like a winner.

Some people are good at that. Some people are not for one reason. Other people are not for other reasons. I have very little patience with indirectness and I've always felt *entitled* to fucking say no LOL, but feeling entitled doesn't make actually *doing* it any easier. There's a huge social stigma, enforced primarily by women among women, against being the person who isn't overwhelmingly positive in the face of a chance to help everyone along.