Story Structure and Construction

[JGittes]

I want to start a thread about the details of story structure and construction from the perspective of how I went about assembling the nuts and bolts of one of my stories. I understand this forum has not been active due to a variety of historical problems, but this looks like the right place for what I’d like to do. I’m not looking for reviews (although go right ahead if you wish) nor do I have specific questions as are asked usually asked in the Authors’ Hangout.

I’ve already written a couple thousand words for this thread and understand there is a limit (700 words, I believe) per individual post, so I’ve broken things up into several separate sections that I’ll post every few days. I’ll answer any questions as, and if, they arise. If they bear on things I’ve already written and scheduled to post, I’ll modify that future post. If there’s no interest, I’ll leave it at that and not waste anyone’s time.

Here’s the story: https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/mid-valley-league-swim-finals

Trigger warnings: Mother/son incest, anal.

Story genesis:

Most of my stories begin from some form of personal experience that I embellish with pure fantasy. ‘Swim Finals’ started with one, rather specific memory. When I grew up, my family wasn’t that strict about nudity. My parents slept nude and didn’t bother covering up for a late-night bathroom run, or early morning shower. That gradually changed when I hit puberty, but not completely.

The memory is of me, 14 or 15, after taking a shower, sitting on our living room couch wrapped in a towel, watching TV. My mother, having come home from her graveyard shift at the hospital, had wrapped herself in a towel in preparation of taking a shower. On the way, she sat down on a dining room chair a few yards away to chat. When she got up, for the briefest of moments, her legs parted and she was inadvertently exposed.

The circumstances were not unusual for our family, but the specific exposure was. That was it, but has remained lodged in my memory all these years. After I started writing erotica, I realized that memory, taken less innocently than it happened, might make an interesting incest story. All I needed were plot, characters, setting, time, you know, the things that make a story, a story.

Time and setting:

I’m basically lazy. I don’t relish doing research all that much. I can do it, but only as a last resort. If I set the story today, I’d have to figure out how 18-year-old kids behave in a cell phone, Instagram, tik tok world. I’ll be long dead before I can do that, so I set it where and when it would have occurred in my memory. I’ve lived in enough places to have a large collection of locations I can use that don’t require me to build an imaginary physical world and keep track of all the details. I use what I remember from the time.

I initially framed the story as an explicit memory from long ago, something like the movie ‘The Bridges of Madison County.’ Unfortunately, I couldn’t keep control of the tone that would let it be a flowing, presently felt, erotic story, any better than Clint Eastwood did with his movie. I just set it in 1971 and tried to run it real time. (To be clear, I like the movie, The Bridges of Madison County, but the contemporary framing story grinds everything to a halt whenever it pops up.)

The problem of indicating the time period remained. My ultimate solution of the clunky first paragraph is the least satisfying part of the entire story. I experimented with a variety of ways to introduce the time period and location, but decided that a brief ‘ripping the band-aid off’ approach was least painful. Not quite as bad as title cards, but not much better.

That’s it for this post. Still to come:
About myself as a writer:
POV:
Plotting:
Characters:
Literotica considerations:

Jake

 

[_Lynn_]

The official description for the AH is 'A place for writers and readers to socialize and discuss the craft of writing'. You might not have specific questions but the AH is a better forum than the SDC to discuss story structure and construction.

(Thread moved to the AH by mod.)

 

[NotWise]

The problem of indicating the time period remained. My ultimate solution of the clunky first paragraph is the least satisfying part of the entire story. I experimented with a variety of ways to introduce the time period and location, but decided that a brief ‘ripping the band-aid off’ approach was least painful. Not quite as bad as title cards, but not much better.

The exact timing doesn't seem very important to me, and using the San Fernando earthquake didn't help me place the time. I had to go look it up.

For me, it might have worked better if your character were listening to (or singing) "American Pie," and for others it might have been the Stone's "Sticky Fingers" album.

There are a lot of other cultural references that you could have built into the story to frame the time without requiring your first paragraph. Dial telephones, mini-skirts, Richard Nixon, and the Vietnam War come to mind.

 

[jaF0]

I’m not looking for reviews (although go right ahead if you wish) nor do I have specific questions as are asked usually asked in the Authors’ Hangout.

I’ve already written a couple thousand words for this thread and understand there is a limit (700 words, I believe) per individual post, so I’ve broken things up into several separate sections that I’ll post every few days. I’ll answer any questions as, and if, they arise. If they bear on things I’ve already written and scheduled to post, I’ll modify that future post. If there’s no interest, I’ll leave it at that and not waste anyone’s time.

The memory is of me, 14 or 15,

First paragraph. This is not the place to submit stories.

Second paragraph. As far as I know the only reference to 700 words is a minimum for story submissions.

Third paragraph must be left out entirely for both stories and board posts.

 

[NotWise]

First paragraph. This is not the place to submit stories.

His story is already submitted.

Second paragraph. As far as I know the only reference to 700 words is a minimum for story submissions.

I've haven't heard of that limit either, but I appreciate shorter posts.

Third paragraph must be left out entirely for both stories and board posts.

Nope. He's talking about his inspiration. The character in the story is eighteen.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I'm a little confused. You said you don't want feedback and you don't have specific questions. You didn't ask for opinions on anything. It sounds a bit like you just want a place to journal. Is that it? Or are you looking for replies? Comments on your process?

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm curious what you are looking for with this thread. You say you are not asking for reviews and don't have specific questions. Is there any feedback you are looking for regarding your story or your account of how you constructed it?

I haven't read it all but started reading it. A few thoughts:

1. I don't know if jaFO is correct that you cannot recount a pre-18 incident in these comments but I'm not aware of such a rule as long as it's not too detailed. If that snippet had been in your story I think it would have been prohibited but you took care of that in the story by making clear your character is over 18. So I see no problem.

2. NotWise makes some wise comments about setting the time period. This is a long time ago, well before many of the readers (not me) here were even born. I remember the quake you refer to and when it happened but some won't. More cultural references would help.

3. When you set a story in the distant past like this the use of tense is very important. In your first paragraph you use the present tense: "It's been an eventful first six months of the year."

What you should write is either past tense or past perfect tense:

"It was an eventful first six months of the year."

"It had been an eventful first six months of the year."

It might seem like a hypertechnical grammar point, but with a story like this where the time setting is important it's not. It's very important. The reader must be fixed in a certain time setting and kept there and you don't want to disorient the reader through the imprecise use of tense.

I think the premise of your story is interesting and, relatively speaking, plausible. I was on a swim team when I was young and I keenly remember the constant presence of flesh and the skimpiness of the swimwear and the way it stimulated the adolescent imagination. And the 70s were a much looser and more easy-going time on issues of sexuality. It's easier to imagine just about anything happening then than now. I think that's a good choice on your part.

 

[NotWise]

I'm a little confused. You said you don't want feedback and you don't have specific questions. You didn't ask for opinions on anything. It sounds a bit like you just want a place to journal. Is that it? Or are you looking for replies? Comments on your process?

His thread was originally started in the Story Discussion Circle, and it was moved to AH. He wants your thoughts.

 

[ElectricBlue]

The official description for the AH is 'A place for writers and readers to socialize and discuss the craft of writing'. You might not have specific questions but the AH is a better forum than the SDC to discuss story structure and construction.

(Thread moved to the AH by mod.)

I don't understand why the thread was moved.

Surely the title in the forum named Story Discussion Forum is plain English, and describes exactly what JGittes wants to do?

 

[jaF0]

The paragraph mentioning age is clearly out of bounds based on the last part of it.

If the OP isn't submitting a story here and doesn't want comments, what is the point?

 

[lovecraft68]

I browsed the comments, story seems well received, but one made me laugh.

Gist was the reader was upset they had anal....that would never happen during the first time.

But of course a mother sleeping with her son in the first place, that's totally logical.

I love the line drawn by some readers when it comes to suspension of belief in a category like I/T.

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't understand why the thread was moved.

Surely the title in the forum named Story Discussion Forum is plain English, and describes exactly what JGittes wants to do?

Maybe it was moved because that forum is nothing but tumbleweeds?

This forum is for the discussion of writing, just seems like he wants to have a one sided discussion and just plot out his process like some kind of blog.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't understand why the thread was moved.

Surely the title in the forum named Story Discussion Forum is plain English, and describes exactly what JGittes wants to do?

This may all be true in theory but that Forum is deader than a doornail. If there is any hope of this thread amounting to anything it's here, not there.

 

[SimonDoom]

I browsed the comments, story seems well received, but one made me laugh.

Gist was the reader was upset they had anal....that would never happen during the first time.

But of course a mother sleeping with her son in the first place, that's totally logical.

I love the line drawn by some readers when it comes to suspension of belief in a category like I/T.

So true! I've encountered this with comments to my mom-son stories.

In one of them, at some point son is spying on mom and she's playing with herself back there.

Reader gets upset: no self-respecting mom would have anything to do with anal!

Sons, yes, but not the booty!

That was a howler.

 

[lovecraft68]

So true! I've encountered this with comments to my mom-son stories.

In one of them, at some point son is spying on mom and she's playing with herself back there.

Reader gets upset: no self-respecting mom would have anything to do with anal!

Sons, yes, but not the booty!

That was a howler.

I take heat at times because my 'moms' talk dirty and get kind of wild. In my mind this is a woman crossing a line, caught up in the moment and cutting loose. I'll sometimes add something slower and softer later on now that the edge is off.

That's my take, but I'll get this one anon-same guy I'm sure-with the 'why is all the moms in this author's stories whores?

His opinion, but we're talking about mothers who would have sex with their sons...that's okay, but some porno sex isn't?

Factions among the factions.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I’m basically lazy. I don’t relish doing research all that much. I can do it, but only as a last resort. If I set the story today, I’d have to figure out how 18-year-old kids behave in a cell phone, Instagram, tik tok world. I’ll be long dead before I can do that, so I set it where and when it would have occurred in my memory. I’ve lived in enough places to have a large collection of locations I can use that don’t require me to build an imaginary physical world and keep track of all the details. I use what I remember from the time.

Jake

It's okay to have a favorite time period as a setting, especially if you remember it.

I have written some stories set in the present (I'm 65) but I never mention Instagram and such. I just go around it. I do know about texts and emails; not sure I've ever used them in a story.

A lot of research was necessary if you were James Michener or Herman Wouk (both now gone I think). For this site, I do check on certain details if I can to get them right. (For example, I couldn't use a reference to the movie Network in the summer of 1976 because it hadn't been released yet.)

As for setting a time period with the San Fernando earthquake, that's fine too. If readers doesn't get, then they can look it up.

 

[NotWise]

As for setting a time period with the San Fernando earthquake, that's fine too. If readers doesn't get, then they can look it up.

If someone has to look it up then they're out of the story. I had to look it up. That put me out of the story and I didn't go back, but that was partly because the OP's discussion points didn't go any farther than that.

 

[_Lynn_]

His thread was originally started in the Story Discussion Circle, and it was moved to AH. He wants your thoughts.

The SDC would work if the OP had specific questions or wanted critique on the stories. I would have left it there if the post fit the basic criteria for the forum. However, since he wasn't asking for feedback either, the AH seemed to be where he would get the most responses to his thoughts.

Sorry. Some threads just don't quite fit anywhere.

 

[JGittes]

Hello everyone.

Thank you for your comments so far. I'm making this comment without carefully reading any of the other comments, so this is a general clarification from my perspective. I will specifically reply to the posted comments a little later.

My intention with this thread was to have a discussion about story structure and the process of actually coming up with the story using one of my already published Literotica stories. Story Discussion Circle seemed the proper place because it would be an author led discussion about an already published story. I wasn't after reviews, although if offered, fine, but a general conversation about your processes for story construction and structure with my example as a jumping off point.

I PM'd Lynn back in April asking if the Story Discussion Circle would be an acceptable place for what I wanted to do, and she replied that it would be OK but that I might get more replies in AH. Since I didn't have specific questions, but rather wanted to generate a more general discussion, I thought SDC was good, even if few people saw the thread or it took a long time to generate interest.

I know that the minimum story submission is 750 words, I submitted one that length in the last 750 word challenge. I recalled reading a comment somewhere over the past couple of months that there was a 700 word limit on posted comments in the forums. I was mistaken in that recollection, but I still think I would use that as a guideline. I expected a slow burn in any interest this thread would generate, and that rather than posting a single 3K word post that I think many would see as overwhelming and proceed no further, I would break up my comments and post as interest developed.

When I went to bed last night, (I'm in southeast UK) there were a few views over at SDC and no comments. This morning I checked in, and saw that the thread was missing from SDC and had been moved here. That's fine (although I had specifically asked permission to post in SDC and been approved) but I can see from many of the replies that my basic concern about posting directly to AH as the most appropriate forum for what I'm trying to do with this thread, may be valid. AH is a great forum, I read it all the time and have learned a great deal here. However, except for the long term coffee shop style threads , writing games and puzzles, and the contest support threads, most threads here address short, specific questions or concerns and are answered quickly.

Having said all that, I'll plow ahead. I'm in the last week of an eight week project replacing the cladding on our 600 year old, Wealden Hall house, so I may not be as prompt in reply as I would otherwise like. Bear with me if possible.

Regards

 

[JGittes]

The exact timing doesn't seem very important to me, and using the San Fernando earthquake didn't help me place the time. I had to go look it up.

For me, it might have worked better if your character were listening to (or singing) "American Pie," and for others it might have been the Stone's "Sticky Fingers" album.

There are a lot of other cultural references that you could have built into the story to frame the time without requiring your first paragraph. Dial telephones, mini-skirts, Richard Nixon, and the Vietnam War come to mind.

Thank you for your comments. This is the sort of reply I was hoping for. Previous versions of the story had all those things and more. I eventually removed them because it seemed that I was trying to make the story more about a faithful recreation of 1971 than a son having sex with his mother. It's also difficult to know which cultural references are sufficiently known that they will serve the widest audience without needing to look them up. An example for me is 'Inherent Vice', both the book by Pynchon and the film by P.T. Anderson. I lived through the time and location of Inherent Vice but found Pynchon's detailed written references, particularly through music cues, to be a complete distraction for exactly the reason you mentioned; I had to look them up. The film however, presented everything clearly and absolutely evoked the time and place. I couldn't have named the music cues, but hearing them captured the essence of the time.

It's okay to have a favorite time period as a setting, especially if you remember it.

I have written some stories set in the present (I'm 65) but I never mention Instagram and such. I just go around it. I do know about texts and emails; not sure I've ever used them in a story.

A lot of research was necessary if you were James Michener or Herman Wouk (both now gone I think). For this site, I do check on certain details if I can to get them right. (For example, I couldn't use a reference to the movie Network in the summer of 1976 because it hadn't been released yet.)

As for setting a time period with the San Fernando earthquake, that's fine too. If readers doesn't get, then they can look it up.

Thank you for your comments. I've written other stories set in the non-specific 'present time' and, like you, just write around those things such Facebook and Instagram that I know nothing about. I'm definitely not writing Tales of the South Pacific, Hawaii, The Caine Mutiny or Winds of War. I've read about Michener in particular, that he employed a staff of researchers to get the basic facts.

If someone has to look it up then they're out of the story. I had to look it up. That put me out of the story and I didn't go back, but that was partly because the OP's discussion points didn't go any farther than that.

I certainly understand that the need to look something up can take one out of the story. As I mentioned above, it can be difficult to know which cultural references wouldn't require looking something up.

 

[JGittes]

I'm a little confused. You said you don't want feedback and you don't have specific questions. You didn't ask for opinions on anything. It sounds a bit like you just want a place to journal. Is that it? Or are you looking for replies? Comments on your process?

Thank you for your comment. As NotWise said below, I originally posted this in the Story Discussion Circle and hoped to get thoughts on story structure and construction. I know there is a review forum and occasionally think of submitting something to be reviewed there, but don't know if I have a thick enough skin yet. I've read quite a few comments in AH that authors need to be disciplined and set aside time to write every day, or write an outline, or read good literature as a way to learn to write better. These are all effective ways to improve my craft.

However, I wanted to inquire into how we go about actually figuring out the structure of the story and constructing it. And rather than just ask the question here, I wanted to use one of my already published stories to discuss how I went about it and why, purely as a starting point.

A frequent answer in AH to a question of what to do about a story point is, 'Write what you want and don't worry about what others think. There is a wide enough audience on Lit that you'll find someone to connect with.' I find that good advice in general.

Sometimes, though, when I'm building a story and get to a point where I have a character needing a logical reason to be able to do something, and the only way I can see to accomplish that is create another character earlier in the story, well, do I go back and do that or will that create too many characters and get in the way of the more basic story I want to tell. That is the thing I'm interested in.

His thread was originally started in the Story Discussion Circle, and it was moved to AH. He wants your thoughts.

That's a bingo. Thank you.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Sometimes, though, when I'm building a story and get to a point where I have a character needing a logical reason to be able to do something, and the only way I can see to accomplish that is create another character earlier in the story, well, do I go back and do that or will that create too many characters and get in the way of the more basic story I want to tell. That is the thing I'm interested in.

What you're zeroing in on here is the difference between a "plotser" and a "pantser." The former, and I think most writers here in the AH are "plotsers", are those writers who plan out the nuts and bolts of their storiess before writing: outlines, character sheets, timelines, the broad direction of the story. "Pantsers," on the other hand (and I'm one) just start writing without a plan or a plot, and see what happens.

Neither approach is "better" than the other, there's no right or wrong, and if you're extremely one you're definitely not the other (my plotlines can turn on a sentence, and a character arrive just like that). It's useful to know which you are, it stops insanity later.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Thank you for your comment. As NotWise said below, I originally posted this in the Story Discussion Circle and hoped to get thoughts on story structure and construction. I know there is a review forum and occasionally think of submitting something to be reviewed there, but don't know if I have a thick enough skin yet. I've read quite a few comments in AH that authors need to be disciplined and set aside time to write every day, or write an outline, or read good literature as a way to learn to write better. These are all effective ways to improve my craft.

However, I wanted to inquire into how we go about actually figuring out the structure of the story and constructing it. And rather than just ask the question here, I wanted to use one of my already published stories to discuss how I went about it and why, purely as a starting point.

A frequent answer in AH to a question of what to do about a story point is, 'Write what you want and don't worry about what others think. There is a wide enough audience on Lit that you'll find someone to connect with.' I find that good advice in general.

Sometimes, though, when I'm building a story and get to a point where I have a character needing a logical reason to be able to do something, and the only way I can see to accomplish that is create another character earlier in the story, well, do I go back and do that or will that create too many characters and get in the way of the more basic story I want to tell. That is the thing I'm interested in.



That's a bingo. Thank you.

It might help guide the discussion if, when you post a section, you indicate what you were wondering about the content of that section. In your comment to me, you mentioned something specific (adding a character to supply motivation for an action). I realize that's just an example, but if you mentioned a question like that when you cover plot, I'd have a better idea what you were looking for than I would if you just explain how you formulate the plot. Explaining how you do it doesn't tell me what about your process you want to improve. It's not like there's a right way and a wrong way, so I wouldn't know from reading your description what about it wasn't working for you.

Story structure and construction is so broad that it's almost like asking how to build a house. Since you've written the story already, I imagine you have specific things in mind. Your comment to me was process-oriented. It's possible to give a general critique of your setting elements, as some have already done, but if you want to discuss the process, I think it might be helpful if you mention which particular things make you want to revamp your process. It would be like asking how to install a door, rather than how to build a house. You'll get a ton of different answers to every question, but having that variety to choose from makes it more likely you'll find one that works for you.

 

[JGittes]

I'm curious what you are looking for with this thread. You say you are not asking for reviews and don't have specific questions. Is there any feedback you are looking for regarding your story or your account of how you constructed it?

I haven't read it all but started reading it. A few thoughts:

1. I don't know if jaFO is correct that you cannot recount a pre-18 incident in these comments but I'm not aware of such a rule as long as it's not too detailed. If that snippet had been in your story I think it would have been prohibited but you took care of that in the story by making clear your character is over 18. So I see no problem.

2. NotWise makes some wise comments about setting the time period. This is a long time ago, well before many of the readers (not me) here were even born. I remember the quake you refer to and when it happened but some won't. More cultural references would help.

3. When you set a story in the distant past like this the use of tense is very important. In your first paragraph you use the present tense: "It's been an eventful first six months of the year."

What you should write is either past tense or past perfect tense:

"It was an eventful first six months of the year."

"It had been an eventful first six months of the year."

It might seem like a hypertechnical grammar point, but with a story like this where the time setting is important it's not. It's very important. The reader must be fixed in a certain time setting and kept there and you don't want to disorient the reader through the imprecise use of tense.

I think the premise of your story is interesting and, relatively speaking, plausible. I was on a swim team when I was young and I keenly remember the constant presence of flesh and the skimpiness of the swimwear and the way it stimulated the adolescent imagination. And the 70s were a much looser and more easy-going time on issues of sexuality. It's easier to imagine just about anything happening then than now. I think that's a good choice on your part.

Thank you for taking the time to comment. I hope my previous replies to other comments answers your basic question of why I'm posting.

On point one. I didn't think discussing a personal event, in non sexual terms, about an inspiration for a story would be a problem in these forums. So I think I agree with you, but if it is a problem, I can easily edit it out.

On point two. NotWise made excellent points regarding setting the time period, and I won't repeat my replies to him above.

On point three. Very much the sort of thing I like to hear. Well, I don't like to hear that I fucked it up, but you provide a very clear path for further work on my part to clarify a problem and a way out. I appreciate that everyone has different limits on what they perceive as deal killing mistakes, whether it is grammar, spelling, cultural reference, logic, consistent character naming, specific sex practice, or whatever. I try to be clear, grammatically correct and all the rest. Grammar is like a well paved road, it makes it easy and pleasant to get from A to B. Sometimes an unmarked, potholed, dirt road is the only way to get there, but the trip better be worth the effort. I wish I had your comment before my final edit to eliminate that problem.

My most recent grammatical issue with an author concerns Sally Rooney, a currently up and coming young Irish writer. Based on reviews in the Guardian I bought both her books with high hopes of discovering a new talent. After the first five pages of 'Normal People' I found myself confused beyond reason. It took a few minutes to realize that she doesn't use quotation marks and I had no idea who was saying what to whom. Maybe they just fell off my copies of the books on the bus trip home, but I think not. Clearly, most people don't find this a difficulty, but I just couldn't get beyond it. I spent an hour marking the quotes in pencil and tried again. After 40 pages I gave up, it wasn't worth all that work.

I hope it's not because I just don't like difficult works. I read Proust, in English translation and very slowly. I find the difficulty of keeping such long sentences alive in my mind is part of the joy contained in the payoff. I suspect, though, he correctly and consistently uses past perfect tense, or at least his English translator does.

 

[JGittes]

I browsed the comments, story seems well received, but one made me laugh.
Gist was the reader was upset they had anal....that would never happen during the first time.
But of course a mother sleeping with her son in the first place, that's totally logical.
I love the line drawn by some readers when it comes to suspension of belief in a category like I/T.

So true! I've encountered this with comments to my mom-son stories.
In one of them, at some point son is spying on mom and she's playing with herself back there.
Reader gets upset: no self-respecting mom would have anything to do with anal!
Sons, yes, but not the booty!
That was a howler.

I take heat at times because my 'moms' talk dirty and get kind of wild. In my mind this is a woman crossing a line, caught up in the moment and cutting loose. I'll sometimes add something slower and softer later on now that the edge is off.

That's my take, but I'll get this one anon-same guy I'm sure-with the 'why is all the moms in this author's stories whores?

His opinion, but we're talking about mothers who would have sex with their sons...that's okay, but some porno sex isn't?

Factions among the factions.

Thanks for your comments.

This is one plot point that I went back and forth on several times, specifically because of reading SimonDoom's many comments on this subject in other threads.

I began writing the story with the scene in the living room culminating with the mother bent over the dining room table, wantonly demanding anal. I thought, 'To hell with the negative comments SimonDoom's stories have received, I'll write what I want.'

However, as I filled out the story and developed the characters, it was clear that an abrupt ending like that wouldn't work at all. There's a reason the trope of progression from oral, to vaginal, to only afterward, anal works is that's mostly the way it works in real life. Several refinements later I ended completely before the anal, consciously thinking of negative comments.

As I finished working on the whole lead up to the actual sex, I realized I'd created a character along the lines of lovecraft68's, who'd crossed a line, got completely caught up in the moment, and needed to completely cut loose for release. That's where the story seemed to culminate. It may have been more 'realistic,' whatever that means in this context, for their relationship to develop another week or so and then go the full course, but I'd already gone on long enough.

I knew this would be an issue, but in the end I went with electricblue66's usual advice and write what you want and don't worry about offending a few readers.