Questions and discussions on the subject of character description lengths and introductions.

[Jmanchu]

Hey how everyone doin on this fine day? I hope pretty good. Anyways, I got some questions and just a want for conversation of the art of writing and hearing the insights from you fine people.

So, I've been working on a project on and off for a while now, a modern fantasy story that is going 24k words strong and counting(think a sexy Harry Potter kind of story with a wizarding world in a Hogwarts-like magic university and you get the basic idea of the setting). Now the draft I have starts with a lengthy introduction(1.2k). First starting with the introductory paragraphs of the classroom laboratory(150 words) where much of the first part of the story takes place. Then the female main as she gets ready for her groundbreaking magical experiment she's about to undertake. It includes the prep work for the intricate ritual magic she's about to perform as she's setting up the last parts: her anticipation and nervousness for this experiment, as well as getting ready for the incoming arrival of the main male character a student in her class who agreed to help her after school and whom she has a major crush on.

There's also a bit of her background where she quickly reminisces over her journey to where she got at the point she is now. how she started as a young studious and talented witch recognized with having a bright future to being the youngest professor at the famous university where she's now ready to take on one of the most career defining moments of her life(her major is advanced portal studies).

With her last-minute prep for her big moment, checking out her wand her precious companion throughout her years doing her studies, then last minute check up of making sure she looks her absolute best. Basically, making sure her makeup, her very carefully picked out wardrobe, her entire look is as on point as possible --- she wants to look and feel sexy yet professional and classy, dress to impress, to give the best impression for the male main coming and for herself too (just for that slight ego boost and reassurance of lookin and feeling sharp and ready for her big moment, both in her career and possibly in love). Then after she does her little checking of her appearance and showing off, she feels as ready as she'll ever be. THEN the story kicks in when the male main makes his entrance.

The entirety of it all is 1.2k words, which I'm still undecided on if I should shorten some parts. I might, but I'm waiting to finish the story draft first. Then I'll decide to maybe even get a beta reader(ie. asking friends or people from the editor's forum) or two to look it over first. Or just let a volunteer editor deal with the mess. All future Jmanchu problems to figure out once he crosses that landmark of course. Which all of this got me thinking about what makes effective introductions and character descriptions for a story without it bogging everything down.

And it prompted me to start this thread:

 

[Jmanchu]

Now, onto the gist of my question or rather my interest for this discussion: What your guys' thoughts are in general when it comes to how long a good introduction should be? How detailed is too detailed? And for any stories that have effectively done lengthy intros and dedicated character descriptions, how did they managed to keep your interest throughout, if any?

To be clear, I know there's no singular answer for this. Some like it short, some like it where it even starts right in the middle of it all cutting out all the good prep work. I know even with famous authors some get straight to the point of their story letting it tell who their characters are while weaving any descriptions into the action as all the missing details are essentially filled by the reader. Like Robert E. Howard and his pulp fiction prose (not counting his separate introductory historical summary of the world his Conan stories take place in).

Others may have long detailed narrations for their introductions and focused character descriptions especially for key characters. I'm thinking Charles Dickens and Tolkien right off the top of my head.

And some find a balance between this of course.

I imagine like how some people prefer eating out at a fast-food restaurant, buffet, or any place where the food is already good to go right from the start or will come out quick enough. And others don't mind it, even enjoying the wait for their food to be prepared at a fancy restaurant while admiring the atmosphere of the place. All while they possibly have a good discussion with their partner or friends, dining on some appetizers(all of it the intro) before the entrée comes and the desert after(Main story and the sweet payoff of course).

Anyways, back to my purpose for this thread for everyone here. I'd love to know your personal perspectives, personal preferences, and opinions on this subject of introduction length and character description length, and anything to do with what makes good intros for plot, setting, and characters.

So, let's get to discussing. All opinions, all different insights welcome

 

[StillStunned]

You can do whatever you like, as long as you do it well.

There, that was a trite and useless answer. But let me clarify.

Readers of online stories are impatient. They haven't paid for anything, so they feel no sense of obligation to continue - as opposed to someone who's bought a book, and who's presumably given the purchase at least some thought, and so is more invested even before they begin to read.

What this means is that you have a handful of paragraphs to engage your reader. You can do this through backstory, through character, through action, through the promise of hot sexy stuff, or if you're very good through sheer storytelling ability.

The easiest way is to begin with some action, or at least a setup that hooks the reader. Once the reader is engaged, they're more willing to give time and mental energy to learn about your world and your characters' backstory. Without that buy-in, you're asking them to keep reading on credit.

If you have a dozen stories that your reader is familiar with, they're more likely to give you that credit. If it's your first story, you'd better make sure that your storytelling abilities are good enough.

 

[Carnevil9]

I like writing (and reading) stories that start in the middle of the action. I don't want to be bored with scene description or character description. First, engage me in some action that I will enjoy. Let me infer the details, or go back and fill them in later. After I'm already convinced that you can write an interesting story.

Not that I believe everyone is like that, but I am.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If it's already up to 24k words then it's a longer story. A longer story will allow for a longer intro, provided that it's not info-dumpy.

Furthermore, if this is posted in N/N no problem as novella crowd expects longer scenes and more descriptive writing and they understand they are, and even want to be, in for the long haul. It sounds obviously like SF/F, in which case so long as that intro gives sufficient fantasy setting details, that should be grabby enough.

You also mention that you main character is getting ready for a presentation and trying to look her sexiest best. In that case it is an opportunity to write it sexy despite no actual sex, which can still grab a more general audience.

If it's a shorter story then we might have a different discussion, but from what you describe I think you'll be just fine.

 

[AllenWoody]

I’m a strong advocate of less is more when it comes to exposition, especially at the beginning of a story. If you have 1500 words of character description or setting, try spreading it out and sprinkling it in with action and dialog. Rather than have the reader read those words all in a chunk, have your characters talking as they’re on their way to the magic class, indirectly describing the scene.

Instead of “Hoggwartz Castle was an imposing structure of granite stones. Seven towers and seven walls in seven different colors sat on a seven-sided precipice above the sea…” write

“Herrmione and Elsinore wove their way through the myriad passages and arches of Hoggwartz, neither willing to acknowledge that they were lost. ‘You know,’ Herrmione said, ‘each of the seven colors is said to represent one of the ancient dragons summoned by Gryyfindor to build Hoggwartz. The stones are so large only a dragon could possibly have quarried them, much less lifted them into place…”

Nothing throws me off like a wall of text.

 

[ElectricBlue]

If your story intro is anything like your opening post, I reckon I'd be gone after a couple of hundred words. You've got to have something happening, but infodumps or long background blah blah blah isn't "happening stuff," it's something I've got to wade through. What's worse, is you're expecting me to remember what's important. In most info-dump beginnings, I've found that most of it's never mentioned again, so why are you telling me this?

 

[Jmanchu]

You can do whatever you like, as long as you do it well.

My thoughts exactly right here^^^

Also, about online readers wanting quick action. That's been a concern of mine, but not much I can do aside from considering what parts to shorten. Just hopin that if the right people who can enjoy it come and find it, they'll come, and for the ones that don,t I'll just hope the intro is grabby enough.

Also, I have about 5 stories, several of which have a full intro, but most aren't close to as long as this one (though one has a lengthy enough introduction establishing the setting during the second scene or chapter). So while I could have at least some credibility, I don't know how much since I don't have many stories(Only one is a complete story, and the others are ongoing chapters, one on definite hiatus...)

I like writing (and reading) stories that start in the middle of the action. I don't want to be bored with scene description or character description. First, engage me in some action that I will enjoy. Let me infer the details, or go back and fill them in later. After I'm already convinced that you can write an interesting story.

I usually try to stick a balance between this. Avoiding just pure exposition dump while giving the feel that the story is happening or fleshed out actively, as in a show don't tell approach.

And I try to rely on the characters to show off details about themselves.

Even the character description isn't just a narration of what the female main looks like. She's actively engaging with her outfit as she makes last minute adjustments. Little inspections like trying to make sure her skirt and outfit is neat and not wrinkled, checking her bangs, trying to figure out how much decolletage to show through her blouse as she fiddles with the buttons, little playful poses as she admires how she looks and feels in her carefully picked out style while trying to give herself that confidence boost to feel ready for her big moment.

I tried to give a sense of nervous anticipation and excitement. A little something, something that shows her attention to detail as a character, her style and tastes while she has fun with it, etc. Although, that part is one of the parts I'm mainly thinking of shortening and making more concise.

If it's already up to 24k words then it's a longer story. A longer story will allow for a longer intro, provided that it's not info-dumpy.

Furthermore, if this is posted in N/N no problem as novella crowd expects longer scenes and more descriptive writing and they understand they are, and even want to be, in for the long haul. It sounds obviously like SF/F, in which case so long as that intro gives sufficient fantasy setting details, that should be grabby enough.

You also mention that you main character is getting ready for a presentation and trying to look her sexiest best. In that case it is an opportunity to write it sexy despite no actual sex, which can still grab a more general audience.

If it's a shorter story then we might have a different discussion, but from what you describe I think you'll be just fine.

I did consider putting it in novel because of that, but I don't know how well it would be received there, plus I don't know if it'll be much longer than that. Maybe 30-36k by the end of it but that's just a rough estimate. I'm not entirely sure how long a story should shoot for at a good minimum in word count for N/N. It definitely is descriptive prose, though. Sci-Fi and fantasy is where it likely will end up. And yeah, I tried to play up the sexy and fun for her description and demeanor. Good to know that I'm probably in the clear for that. Thanks for the response

 

[Jmanchu]

I’m a strong advocate of less is more when it comes to exposition, especially at the beginning of a story.

I tried to focus on the mood of the setting more than the physical descriptions themselves(for the intro of the setting and the university), even the character description though the details get definitely more descriptive and vivid for her. I wanted to try to make even the description feel like a journey instead of just an explanation. But I don't know how well I did that. I'm still trying to figure out the right prose for that.

If your story intro is anything like your opening post, I reckon I'd be gone after a couple of hundred words. You've got to have something happening, but infodumps or long background blah blah blah isn't "happening stuff," it's something I've got to wade through. What's worse, is you're expecting me to remember what's important. In most info-dump beginnings, I've found that most of it's never mentioned again, so why are you telling me this?

Ouch. I didn't know my posts sound that bad. Anyways, glad to have you here, and I do appreciate your feedback. I'll try to work on my future posting prose in the forums so I don't bore ya.

Well, I don't know about most other people who write in this site or other online sites(I do read, the story titles that catch my attention when I'm in a reading mood. And I have definitely read quality intros as well as stories with shit that's happening right from the go for sure.), but I try to make sure my stories' details all have something relevant while the story's world doesn't feel like its on pause, either for the plot, the mood, something of interest to the character and their sensibilities, or a detail that can give a potential plot thread or change the story in some way. I do avoid sharing excessive details that are irrelevant later on especially for an intro.

 

[intim8]

What your guys' thoughts are in general when it comes to how long a good introduction should be?

If it's an infodump, it is probably bad regardless. I prefer to introduce characters over time. Brief description initially, just to set a baseline, then bring out more details of their appearance, personality, background, etc as the story proceeds, using actions, dialog, interactions with other characters and some brief narrative passages.

 

[intim8]

Readers of online stories are impatient. They haven't paid for anything, so they feel no sense of obligation to continue - as opposed to someone who's bought a book, and who's presumably given the purchase at least some thought, and so is more invested even before they begin to read.

That's a really excellent point.

 

[CockSparrow]

One of my first real-world editors had a rule covering introductions and character descriptions: Tell the reader only what she needs to know - and only when she needs to know it. Follow this rule, and things seem to end up precisely the right length.

Next question?

 

[Jmanchu]

If it's an infodump, it is probably bad regardless. I prefer to introduce characters over time. Brief description initially, just to set a baseline, then bring out more details of their appearance, personality, background, etc as the story proceeds, using actions, dialog, interactions with other characters and some brief narrative passages.

Yeah, I don't think it's an info dump... But I'll have to check it out with outside eyes. Judging by what most people here are saying. It might be best if I shorten details and intro. At least, I'll seriously consider it...

One of my first real-world editors had a rule covering introductions and character descriptions: Tell the reader only what she needs to know - and only when she needs to know it. Follow this rule, and things seem to end up precisely the right length.

Next question?

That's probably what I'll do then. Aside from one little reminiscent part in the female mains' part thinking about how she got to where she's at while she's getting ready, everything has a purpose directly tied to the plot and romance. I think. I'll just give it a look over later on tonight. Well, on the subject of editors, I might just go get one in the forum when this draft is done.

I'll let you know when I get that next good question.

 

[Norway_1705]

Readers of online stories are impatient. They haven't paid for anything, so they feel no sense of obligation to continue - as opposed to someone who's bought a book

Yes. The ancient Romans recommended starting IN MEDIAS RES, that is, in the middle of the action.
Precisely because you have to harpoon the reader before he gets bored and reads another writer.
No wall of words (the seven towers with the seven columns with the seven colors) but also no dialogue that is a trick to embellish the wall ("Look, Elsinore, have you noticed that the colors of the seven columns...").

See, this comment of mine is already boring after only a few lines. And anyone, even me, would have stopped reading after the word "ancient."

Try it this way:
"...and the pierced clitoris was still crying out for attention. The young witch rested the Magic Wand on her shaved mons and murmured "Engorgito." Her fingers went toward...."

Without explanation. Someone pierced that clitoris, but how, when, why? What spell would Engorgito be, and what would happen next? Who the fuck is the nameless young witch? If these silent questions work like fish hooks, you will have hooked your reader, and he will resist the long descriptions because he wants the answers to the questions already triggered.
This is a Fragment. it is as if someone had torn out the first few pages. Which is like in real life: you didn't get to see the Behind the Scenes, you didn't get to see the makeup and getting ready phase, you're already in the thick of the action.
A 19th-century scholar wrote that we like ancient Greek poetry so much because it's just fragments. That way the reader is always left wanting to know what was before and what was after.
The most boring books are those that explain everything. The most fascinating books are those that leave mystery, allusions, people not introduced, motivations not explained, magic with side effects that no one anticipated (Tolkien and Rowling but also Martin).
Good luck! Don't imitate my bad example: I am most boring both in life and in writing. But the idea of "ripping out the first five pages" can be useful (you don't throw them away, you refer to them later, even in a flashback or prequel after the reader has become an avid fan (to the level of reading not only The Silmarillion but also Letters to the Laundry Woman).

 

[Jmanchu]

Good luck! Don't imitate my bad example: I am most boring both in life and in writing. But the idea of "ripping out the first five pages" can be useful (you don't throw them away, you refer to them later, even in a flashback or prequel after the reader has become an avid fan (to the level of reading not only The Silmarillion but also Letters to the Laundry Woman).

Hey thanks for the message, bro. Nah, I hear ya. After hearing pretty much the majority of the people already saying "start in the middle of the action" I'm considering just starting the story in the next scene from the get-go. Well, considering it after I get some Beta Readers to look at it.

The intro I did try to avoid a wall of text, like avoiding a Star Wars-esque intro explaining the setting itself or something like that. Technically there's stuff going on in the intro, but it's mainly setting the scene with the female main getting ready for her big moment, though it isn't dialogue action from the get-go. Like Finishing setting up her major experiment(which plays a huge part in the plot) and getting ready for the arrival of the male main character whom she's got a thing for. There's some stuff like a quick paragraph or two of her reflecting inwardly a bit on her journey in the wizard school(Totally not a Hogwarts school or anything like that...), her nervousness, excitement, a little bit of primping her outfit and getting sensual with her having just a little fun with it, etc but it's all before the major start of the story where the main male character comes in and all of the parts in the chapter play their part.

It wasn't done out of me needing to explain or thinking something wouldn't make sense, it just seemed like a fun scene to write and it was, but it's technically introduction. Honestly, I kind of wish that Literotica would put in a tool for table of contents inside of a story. The series function works for that, I guess, but I feel they should have something an option for inside the stories themselves like an option for the table of content. Would make it so much easier.

Which is why I made this thread. To get answers, and possibly to hear thoughts of other people here who have read novels that have very extensive intros and what works(or doesn't) or just to hear what people would say. And just to see if my worries about having a proper dedicated intro chapter was a recipe for disaster. Maybe I should put this story on the backburner for now. Maybe, we'll see. I'm just worried now about the beta readers after all the advice saying it might not be the best of ideas... or at least a risky one if I were to do it.

Yeah, the Silmarion, I loved that book, I liked it a little more than The Lord of the Rings even. And speaking of stories with "magic with unintended consequences" That instantly makes me think of the Shannara Chronicles by Terry Brooks.

 

[lustychimera]

I'm not staunchly against exposition, like one of those "show don't tell" browbeaters, but 1200k of exposition seems pretty excessive.

As a reader, I'd give it maybe 4-500 words of exposition if it was alluding to a trope that I really liked, but that's probably only if the prose is really gripping. In my mind, that should be the author's absolute A-game. That's their pitch to sell me on the story.

I love writing fantasy and have spent hundreds of hours on that site with two R's, but in pretty much every community I've been in, the general consensus always seems to be, readers don't care about an author's worldbuilding or lore--not even a little bit (Magic systems, too). They only care about the worlds they already care about, and yours isn't making a very good pitch.

Your intro sounded really cool. I really do like that. She's powdering her nose or painting her fingernails while simultaneously checking the ratio of dolphin cocks to pigs feet for some gurgling diabolical magical experiment. Like, that sounds engaging af to me. Those priorities are hilarious. I have her pictured as some kind of Regina George smarty pants bitch.

I don't need you to spoon feed me who she is, her backstory, her cup size, who she has a crush on, all that. With a set-up like you described, her actions alone would totally hold my attention. And the engaging part would be trying to figure out that enigma of a character.

As an aside, I think the best intros are when you can have something of a small stakes mini-arc that both foreshadows the story and gives the characters a real chance to showcase their characteristics or who they need to grow into.

 

[Jmanchu]

I'm not staunchly against exposition, like one of those "show don't tell" browbeaters, but 1200k of exposition seems pretty excessive.

As a reader, I'd give it maybe 4-500 words of exposition if it was alluding to a trope that I really liked, but that's probably only if the prose is really gripping. In my mind, that should be the author's absolute A-game. That's their pitch to sell me on the story.

I love writing fantasy and have spent hundreds of hours on that site with two R's, but in pretty much every community I've been in, the general consensus always seems to be, readers don't care about an author's worldbuilding or lore--not even a little bit (Magic systems, too). They only care about the worlds they already care about, and yours isn't making a very good pitch.

Your intro sounded really cool. I really do like that. She's powdering her nose or painting her fingernails while simultaneously checking the ratio of dolphin cocks to pigs feet for some gurgling diabolical magical experiment. Like, that sounds engaging af to me. Those priorities are hilarious. I have her pictured as some kind of Regina George smarty pants bitch.

I don't need you to spoon feed me who she is, her backstory, her cup size, who she has a crush on, all that. With a set-up like you described, her actions alone would totally hold my attention. And the engaging part would be trying to figure out that enigma of a character.

As an aside, I think the best intros are when you can have something of a small stakes mini-arc that both foreshadows the story and gives the characters a real chance to showcase their characteristics or who they need to grow into.

I'll tell you, I'm TERRIBLE at making pitches, giving interesting summaries, etc for when I tell people about any story I like. But thank you for the very constructive advice, and the encouragement, makes me feel like hope is not lost yet. Yeah, the expository "chapter" might be a bit long. Although, the prose, I really went all out with it, like all out, just to make sure it got the right feel and mood. I edited and sculpted that writing like it was my clay vase masterpiece in art class. Still am. Is it any good? I'd like to think so since I put my all into it. But I'll just have to find out once I get people to look at it. ;P

And that's what I try to avoid, spoon-feeding exposition. Aside from the little "backstory" where she quickly reminisces a couple of paragraphs(my main focus on where I might try to shorten, or possibly remove in later edits) about how she got to where she is in the story at the moment, getting ready for her big experiment. There are no cup size references or anything in particular about body measurements (I try to avoid that like the plague ), and the only mention of her crush is one line "It was almost time for 'MMC' to come..." before she does a last minute checkup and her little primping ritual, and giving herself that last minute ego boost to make herself feel like a lady ready to face her big moment.

Regina George... That's Mean Girls, right? That just gave me a new idea. A sassy group of mystic valley girls and the going ons of their magic high school everyday life. Watch out. Because the magic and action is every bit as witchy and dramatic as these mean girls' attitude. Bitch Witches. *flourishing enthusiastic hands out in front and by my side at end of my pitch*