Privilege, then and now

Hey, what a surprise: a troll that doesn't want to read anything besides stroke stories. Keep covering those eyes, See No Evil. Maybe you and the rest of the monkeys can put your hands over your mouths, too.

I'm a troll because I don't value your opinion based on the words you type (or say).

You must know A LOT of trolls.
 
This touches on something I've thought about before. The goal should not be for those with privilege to lose it. The goal should be for those without it to gain it. Of course if everyone had it it would no longer be privilege, but the idea is everyone should move up to equality, not down.
I think sometimes the term privilege obscures this, makes people defensive, like the libs are coming to take things away. No, I don't want to take away your house; I want everyone to live in a house, to simplify.
In the modern world, almost all scarcity is created scarcity. We could feed, clothe, and house everyone in the world world without doing anything besides taxing billionaires to the point where they're "only" millionaires. Well, if you include the churches and the royals, that is. Which I do.
 
I'm a troll because I don't value your opinion based on the words you type (or say).

You must know A LOT of trolls.
Nah, you're a troll because your response to someone making an argument is a pithy comment and a "I won't read that." It's not a question of you agreeing with me or valuing my opinion. It's that you treat any argument as a game, one you can change the rules to whenever you start to lose.

I spent too much time arguing with devil's advocates when I was younger before I realized they were mostly just devils themselves. Once someone shows they aren't actually engaged, I disengage. And in case you think I'm engaging with you, troll? I'm not. I'm helping along anyone else who hasn't learned that yet. See? Acknowledgment CAN be action!

Learning is fun. Try it sometime.
 
Nah, you're a troll because your response to someone making an argument is a pithy comment and a "I won't read that." It's not a question of you agreeing with me or valuing my opinion. It's that you treat any argument as a game, one you can change the rules to whenever you start to lose.

I spent too much time arguing with devil's advocates when I was younger before I realized they were mostly just devils themselves. Once someone shows they aren't actually engaged, I disengage. And in case you think I'm engaging with you, troll? I'm not. I'm helping along anyone else who hasn't learned that yet. See? Acknowledgment CAN be action!

Learning is fun. Try it sometime.

You started off by saying, "I'm sorry, but that's a gigantic pile of shit."

Very intelligent. That's a person who has something to say and what they have to say is defiantly worth listening to and considering.

You're no teacher.
 
My view on privilege is somewhat different. I believe that life operates on a system of balance, where everything comes with its own cost. Those who enjoy privilege in one aspect of life often pay a price in another. Everyone gets their fair share of blows eventually.
Google "Just World Fallacy."

Those who have had a happy childhood and a stable, nurturing home environment may have a greater chance of obtaining a good education and pursuing successful careers. However, they may inadvertently spend most of their lives accumulating and maintaining assets they don't truly need. "The more you have, the more you worry."
I guarantee you, having been both poor and rich? I'd trade the worries I had when I was poor for the ones I had when I was rich every day and twice on Sunday.

Conversely, those who endure a more challenging childhood may develop greater resilience and become better equipped to confront adversity.
No they don't. Google "Complex PTSD." Developing a tough shell isn't a privilege, it's a toxic coping strategy.

Even the most privileged people cannot avoid loneliness, emptiness, boredom, severe illness, and loss at some point in their lives. Those who appear to have everything may be silently struggling behind the scenes. The less educated, blue-collar class often builds stronger bonds with their families and friends, who support them through tough times. "For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow."
Just World Fallacy again. Study after study shows that people are happiest when they have a minimum level of wealth, and that having that minimum level of wealth makes them more likely to also have healthy family and friendship connections, better opportunities, etc. Your argument is the "blind people have sharper hearing!" argument, a provably false statement that we've known is false for years, and which people still promulgate because it makes them feel better, either that they're doing better than the next guy (it's not my fault I'm privileged) or to cope with their inferior social/economic status (We're only poor in wealth, but we're rich in spirit!). They're both used to keep the status quo intact, and they're both bad.

If you have experienced a perfect childhood, a happy youth, a successful adulthood, and a fulfilling relationship, and have somehow managed to avoid loss, pain, and depression, then I regret to inform you that there may very well be a massive shitstorm awaiting you over the horizon.
Everyone MIGHT have a bad time coming. I might get hit by a bus tomorrow, but if I run through crosswalks without looking both ways, I'm more likely to. The "bad day" for a privileged person is a lot less likely to lead to homelessness, unrecoverable health issues, etc. than for an underprivileged person. Again, pure, provable facts.
 
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You started off by saying, "I'm sorry, but that's a gigantic pile of shit."
Because it was a gigantic pile of shit. Like, it took me three seconds to come up with the first unassailable argument against it, and they just kept coming.

Hey, other people reading? This is what trolls do. If they think you might be fun to troll, they try to keep you engaged by arguing that they were right all along. Don't do what I'm doing here; I'm not doing it for his benefit, I'm doing it for yours. Hence me not responding to the rest of his bullshit post. This particular tactic is called "tone policing," where they focus on the way you present your argument over the argument itself. "You're not polite enough, so I won't listen."

"Don't protest angrily."
"Don't protest peacefully."
"Don't kneel during the national anthem."
"Don't talk on forums unless you're willing to do something."
Repeat.

It's just another tactic.
 
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Because it was a gigantic pile of shit. Like, it took me three seconds to come up with the first unassailable argument against it, and they just kept coming.

Hey, other people reading? This is what trolls do. If they think you might be fun to troll, they try to keep you engaged by arguing that they were right all along. Don't do what I'm doing here; I'm not doing it for his benefit, I'm doing it for yours. Hence me not responding to the rest of his bullshit post.

I've been more than generous with giving you more time, but you've proven you don't deserve more.

If you want to engage in a discussion, then do so like an adult, not like a teenager looking for a fight.
 
I don't know you well enough to say for sure, but based on what you've shared in this thread, it's hard for me to see how your accomplishments have brought you closer to happiness, peace, and companionship.
Well, let's see. I've been happily married for two decades, with three great kids, a job that pays well and I enjoy decently enough, hobbies that make me happy, friends I enjoy being around, and a nice place to live. I've received the help that I needed over the last decade to get me into a place where I'm happy with myself--even if I would like to lose some weight--and to understand the difficulties that I did have when I was younger, which mostly stemmed from undiagnosed ADHD; medicine helps with that a lot (that's one of those places I didn't roll an 18). I've put my past struggles in their context, forgiven those who transgressed against me, rebuilt the bonds I want to, and am in a successful, happy place in my life.

Which is why I can afford the time to argue on the internet with total strangers when it suits me.

Whenever I see someone say "talking about this stuff doesn't matter," I KNOW it's bullshit, because I know that talking about it is SPECIFICALLY why I DO have a better life now. If my friend hadn't talked on and on about his ADHD diagnosis, I never would have gotten tested. If my wife (a Filipina woman) hadn't talked with me about representation on TV, and how much Sulu meant to her growing up, I wouldn't have that understanding, and our marriage would be poorer for it AND I'd have had more trouble relating to my children about struggles they face.

Whenever someone pulls the Just World fallacy out of their hat, I recognize it for one of two things, which it almost always is: "I don't want to feel guilty, because I've gotten lucky" and "I need to feel like this is for some reason, that I'm not a victim to my circumstances." I've been both, and I've believed it in both contexts. It's not a bad place to be, but it's a bad place to stay; if not for you, then probably for someone you care about.

"The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for; I agree with the second part." Detective Somerset's quote from Seven comes back to me more and more as I get older. The world can be a fine place, and for me? It is. But I want it to be a fine place for more people, and I'm willing to fight both for and against them to make it happen.
 
Apologies for the skepticism, but I haven't felt a forgiving vibe yet. Instead, I felt an aggressive assertiveness that said, "Either you're with me, or you're with me."
I have to imagine that last one is a typo, but if not, it's actually an accurate summation. If you're not with me, you should be. Even if you think you're against me, you're probably not; you just haven't realized that we're all in this together yet. Unless they're a troll; fuck them. "I am very clever, look how easy it is for me to anger people" isn't a cogent political stance.
I find it difficult to reconcile a belligerent and dismissive attitude toward others with happiness. Nevertheless, if you truly feel happy, I am happy for you. This, however, strengthens my belief in the balance system: your current happiness may be a result of enduring your fair share of suffering earlier in life.
Belligerent? Only in the face of belligerence. Dismissive? Sometimes. There comes a point when you see the same arguments over and over again, and you reach the point of responding in shorthand. If I say "Google X," I've been there, had the argument, gotten the t-shirt. There are better people than me that have successfully made the argument, and you're better off reading their words than mine.

Best of luck with your "I want to make the world a better place" attitude. As the saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
But the road out also is. I'll never know, at the end of my life, if I made it a better place. But I can try. It's that or sit there like the cartoon dog in the fire saying, "This is fine." I know which one I'll choose.
 
As the saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
If you have a surface paved with good intentions, you can pile good actions on it until you've built a building, and then the road won't be passable anymore.
 
I've been more than generous with giving you more time, but you've proven you don't deserve more.

If you want to engage in a discussion, then do so like an adult, not like a teenager looking for a fight.
One last one for the crowd at home: this is called flouncing. It's what trolls (among others) do when they realize they can't win, either because they've talked themselves into a corner or their assumed prey won't play with them anymore. It's the "I'm gonna take my ball and go home, so don't you pretend you won just because you were six goals up on me" of internet argumentation.

To MHW: Ta!
 
Well it was an attempt at the humor of irony, and I'm a lifelong atheist, so prayers are out, but you sounds like a good Christian who knows what's right for yourself and everyone else. So I understand.
Gee, that's a first. Nobody's ever mistaken me for a Christian before. Lol.
 
I'm getting a faint redolance of Tilan in my nostrils. And while he's been here (@MrHereWriting) for some time, I still get the fragrance of feedlot.
I've been more than generous with giving you more time, but you've proven you don't deserve more.

If you want to engage in a discussion, then do so like an adult, not like a teenager looking for a fight.
 
If you genuinely want to contribute to changing the world, consider starting with something as small as weaning yourself off snacks; those plastic wrappers are literally suffocating our planet.
Why do you assume that I am not currently doing anything to make the world better? I am capable of both talking and acting, believe it or not.
 
I'm getting a faint redolance of Tilan in my nostrils. And while he's been here (@MrHereWriting) for some time, I still get the fragrance of feedlot.

I wear Drakkar Noir. (I get a sense you're one of those privilege whiners who ignores those who have it worse than you.)

NoTalentHack acted like a child throwing a tantrum, so I let him know he wasn't worth my time . Once he matures, maybe I'll pay attention to him. No promises.
 
If you genuinely want to contribute to changing the world, consider starting with something as small as weaning yourself off snacks; those plastic wrappers are literally suffocating our planet.
Interesting example. Plastic waste is indeed a huge problem, and it's much harder to solve than merely giving up junk food; a lot of necessities come packaged in disposable plastics these days too.

But did you ever stop to think about how that situation came about?

To state the obvious, plastic wasn't always used for packaging; most plastics weren't even available until the second half of the 20th century. Before that, if you wanted to buy a Coke, it came in a glass bottle. But it's far cheaper to sell Coke in plastic bottles than in glass, so when plastics became available manufacturers adopted them enthusiastically as a giant cost saving.

Around the 1980s-1990s people noticed the growing problem of plastic garbage piling up, and they started to make noises about the problem. There are a few ways this could have gone.

Option #1, kind of a nuclear option, is regulation. Governments could've passed laws, either banning the use of plastics in packaging where not essential, or shifting the costs of plastics cleanup back onto the packaging industry.

Option #2 is self-regulation. Manufacturers agree among themselves to stop using plastics where not essential, and fund cleanup for the rest. (Gotta be careful with this one; sometimes self-regulation is ineffective and done merely for show. But it can work, sometimes.)

Option #3 is to shift the spotlight to somebody else and make it their responsibility to solve. And this is mostly what happened. The plastics industry funded a bunch of PR campaigns that encouraged people to focus on personal actions, "you can save the world by reducing, reusing, and recycling" kind of stuff, as a way to deflect the conversation from the choices their own members were making.

And it's been pretty effective - not as a way of actually solving the plastics problem, which continues to be a huge problem despite thirty-odd years of these Personal Responsibility initiatives, but as a way of shifting the responsibility away from the people who are making money by choosing plastic packaging.

This is not to say that people shouldn't cut down on use of plastics, and put our rubbish in the bin rather than tossing it into the ocean. Those are good things to do. But the idea that they're the path to saving the world is largely a smokescreen, and some of the "personal responsibility" initiatives promoted as smokescreens are worthless. Conscientious people spend a lot of time separating out their plastics from their trash, and then most of that "recycling" ends up in landfill alongside the other trash anyway.

Not saying that all recycling is futile; for some products, like aluminium, it can be very effective. But industry has known since the 1970s that the value of plastic recycling is mostly as a way to stop people asking the question "why is this stuff packaged in plastic anyway, and what if it wasn't?"

NPR piece on this: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/8976...ell More Plastic An NPR,work on a large scale.
 
I think you have me confused with someone else.
I wear Drakkar Noir. (I get a sense you're one of those privilege whiners who ignores those who have it worse than you.)

NoTalentHack acted like a child throwing a tantrum, so I let him know he wasn't worth my time . Once he matures, maybe I'll pay attention to him. No promises.
 
I'm getting a faint redolance of Tilan in my nostrils. And while he's been here (@MrHereWriting) for some time, I still get the fragrance of feedlot.
BAWAHAHA! đź‘ŤFEISTY LADY!


I guess, since I started this thing I ought to jump in and do what I said I would.


As a kid, I didn't have a concept of "privilege". There were some in my community who had less than we did, but not many and not by much. So my idea that would be analogous of privilege was those who had the things and got to do things my family didn't. To illustrate what I mean, my brother and I had our own bedroom. But it was an unheated 40's era bus body with a mill canvas curtain door, pulled up behind our house as storage. We talked my grandparents (who had custody of my siblings and me, even though my dad lived with us. A long story) into letting us move out there because we shared a 12 x 12 bedroom with my uncle (who was only 7 years older than I was) and my dad. It was a bit crowded so sleeping in the bus was preferable for us. Our toilet was on the other end of the garden 75 yards from the house, a wooden outhouse. And our bathtub was a galvanized tub placed in the middle of the kitchen floor with the water heated on the kitchen range. We did have indoor running water, but only for the kitchen faucet.


So anyone I knew who had an indoor toilet or their own bedroom, even if it was shared with a sibling, astounded me and made me envious. The same went for store-bought toys, or store-bought bread, or clothes without patches toward the end of a school year. What I'm trying to get to is back then things that others had, material things were to me a privilege. No I'm not as old as Metuzala. This all took place in the 1950s and 1960s. That was my concept of privilege then, things others had. Admittedly a child's view of the world. I never thought about some other privileges other kids had, like waking in the morning not stuck to the sheets because of the blood and lymph fluid leaking from the welts on your back and legs. Or that most families didn't have a slimy uncle who liked little kids, boys as well as girls. Those things weren't talked about so I had no frame of reference or things to compare them to. To me, at that time it was just part of my life.


At 19 I got drafted into the Army. At the time I just thought it was the way of things and my number had come up, which it had as my birthday was drawn at the #25 spot on the draft list. What I didn't know until a while after is I wasn't one of those with the privilege of having a rich, powerful father who would send me off to college so I'd get a 1Y deferment, or buy my way out of being drafted. I had no power or money, so I went to war, cannon fodder so those with privilege didn't have to.


When I began to realize what real privilege was I looked around and it didn't take me long to realize that privilege was, because of money and/or power not having to go by the rules that everyone else was expected to go by. It was being in a position where you could and did on a regular basis, ignore the rules. You could use others, screw them and walk away laughing because those you screwed had no way to make it right and society turned a blind eye to it. That is real privilege.


I have a really hard time with the concept of "white privilege". I know it exists and in some locals is very prevalent and the way of things. But I do not believe it is a universal thing. I do not believe I've ever been a recipient of it. I served for 6 years in the Army. In that time I served with and under black NCOs and officers. Some were friends, many I respected and some were assholes I couldn't stand, not because of their color, but because they were just that, assholes. An old saying we had, "when you put the green on all other colors fade".


Anyway, that was how I saw it as a child and how I see it now.


Comshaw
 
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