Non-consent

[Altissimus]

I write a lot of non-consent. Primarily, one might say.

I do not write rape. I feel what I write belongs more in the 'consensual non consent' (CNC) bracket, which might be called 'reluctance'. This is a popular fantasy for men and women alike, and a category with a great many writers and readers both.

But the fact remains that outside of Lit's rather-broad definitions (viz: not 'rape' if enjoyed by the victim; and not the primary focus of this thread), sometimes NC or CNC is rapey, and in the 'real world' (something we fortunately don't have to worry too much about) pretty much every noncon story would be illegal. 'Mind Control' also, arguably, belongs here.

So, questions for fellow authors - particularly those of us with a CNC predilection: how do you stop CNC being NC or rape? Where's your line? Do you find yourself rubbing up against it, or crossing it?

And, very much as a secondary focus: do you feel the non-con Lit rules should be refined? If so, how?

This is an emotive topic. Let's try not to get it locked faster than one started by lovecraft68, eh?

 

[NoTalentHack]

It really depends. There's a lot of stuff even in popular culture that is like PG-rated NC; I'm thinking in particular of that scene in Empire when Han Solo has really aggressive body language with Leia on the Millennium Falcon, basically daring her to admit that she likes him. In a modern context, it comes off as creepy, but at the time, it was sexy and (sort of) flirty. And for some people, with that particular taste, it still is. The line has moved so much over the past 30-odd years, and that's a good thing. But that also means it's moved in fiction, too.

I guess what I'm saying is, if I ever wrote a rape story, it would not try to glamorize it at all, which means it wouldn't be here on the site. And if it's reluctance, I'd be hard-pressed to use a first-person point of view; reluctance without insight comes off as rape-y. If I did, it would be clear afterwards that this was a thing the couple did and had done as foreplay before, an established game for them. It only seemed like reluctance.

The only NC/R story I've written so far is a CNC disguised as a rape for the first third of the story, but even the disguise was peppered with details that only made sense if there had been a timejump between the opening couple of paragraphs and the "rape." The only other one I'm considering is sort of the flipside of that; the POV is a first person from the FMC and she's wondering through the whole thing if her boyfriend has once again done the thing where he goes overboard in trying to make her happy and instead has turned what should have been a fun experience into one that is also really terrifying. Like, she's not sure if the guy in the mask that's broken in is him, because he's wearing colored contacts, has intentionally changed his gait and accent, brought a friend along (who's only there for set dressing), etc.

Essentially, at some point in the story, I explicitly state "This was intended to be a good time for the people involved, even if things went off the rails."

 

[oneagainst]

The opening chapter of Oxygen Games is this, but there is a definite point at the end where you know they're a couple. I personally (and this is someone with a lot of NC/R entries) would find going any further than a rough CNC scene between an established couple a bridge too far. There is a section of the readership who are reading it because they like power exchange and ravishment as opposed to rape and want to imagine themselves in one of the MC's positions, which is who I'd be writing it for.

 

[mirafrida]

If you're honest about what's involved, and not mentally disturbed, then real rape is gross. Still, if I'm going to indulge my fantasies in fiction, then NC/R is often going to be involved. I don't love that about myself, but it's how I'm built, and I've never had a problem keeping fantasy and reality clearly distinguished.

In terms of NC/R fantasies, the line between what excites and what repels is intensely personal and often razor thin. This is basically true of all kinks - but understandably, the emotions generated around this topic are even more heated. The things that appeal to me are idiosyncratic. I don't like violence, for example, so that's not something you'd find in my stories. But I'm sure many people would find the stuff I write reprehensible. (Occasionally they'll let me know that in a comment.)

All I can really do is put one of those hated "author's notes" at the front of each story, strongly affirming the importance of consent in real life, and warning people of the sort of content the story contains. I'm always trying to get better at including all the necessary red-flags without totally spoiling the story, but it's a work in progress.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Hmm. To me, CNC is people who've agreed in advance to play out a non-consensual scenario, "reluctance" doesn't involve that prior consent. That's a significant difference. What do you understand by those terms?

 

[NightPorter]

Hmm. To me, CNC is people who've agreed in advance to play out a non-consensual scenario, "reluctance" doesn't involve that prior consent. That's a significant difference. What do you understand by those terms?

That's CNC in the real world. In fiction you can take more liberties with fantasies. Plenty of woman have the R fantasy without ever wanting to experience it in real life and that's ok. Let them experience the loss of control to a dark and handsome man on the relative safety of the internet.

There are plenty of things you can write about that are ill advised in the real world. If you went to a party and let 10 random dudes have sex with you without condoms, statistically you would walk away with an STD. But STD don't exist unless the author decides that they exist. So write a story about it and live out your wildest fantasies from behind a keyboard. There's no reason to let reality encroach on people's online fun.

 

[NotWise]

I have one story ("Quarter to Midnight," two parts) in NonCon. Part one is one of my lowest-rated stories, but also one I happen to like. The story doesn't try to pussy foot around what happens. I also don't use the word "rape," but he rapes her -- three times. He's out of emotional control when it happens, and he's overwhelmed by remorse when it's over.

It all leads to some of the most tense and most emotional scenes I've written.

 

[SimonDoom]

This issue has been discussed a lot recently, and I'd recommend pulling up some of the recent threads. A few of my thoughts:

1. It's not true that "every noncon story in the real world would be illegal," because as a general matter fiction that describes illegal behavior is not illegal. You're free to read and write about rape and murder. Anybody watch Game of Thrones? This content is never prosecuted in the USA, except in rare cases where it involves young children.

2. If you mean that the behavior described in most noncon stories would be illegal in the real world, yes, that's true, unless the activity is "play-acting" noncon, meaning it's not really noncon. The kind of noncon fiction that this Site permits, however, meaning noncon where the victim enjoys it, but where it really IS against their will, would almost ALL be illegal in the real world. If the victim took the case to court, they would win, as long as the jury believed them (that's a whole different matter).

3. I personally believe the Literotica rules on non-con are just fine, so long as the Site does a reasonably diligent job of enforcing its rules and applying them evenly and fairly. I do NOT want to see the Site be more restrictive than it is.

4. How do you stop noncon from being rape? You don't. It IS rape, morally and probably legally, or at the very least a form of sexual assault. If character X forces Y to engage in sexual activity against Y's will, it's morally rape. As an author you face that fact and deal with it, whatever that means for you. I don't know what consensual nonconsent means. If it's consensual then it's not real nonconsent; it's voluntary power exchange, and that means it's probably BDSM or fetish, not noncon.

5. I haven't published a noncon story yet, but I'm working on some, and here's how I deal with it. First, I acknowledge that in the real world it's the moral and legal equivalent of rape, because it is. Second, I don't get wrapped around the axle about that because this is fiction and fantasy, and none of it is real or has any real implications or consequences (that we have any reason or evidence to know of or worry about). I have no guilt about what I write or read. Third, however, for me personally, I would avoid excessive cruelty or pain or suffering. I would try to play within the Site's somewhat fanciful space of "enjoyable nonconsent." I would try to make the nonconsent experience somewhat ambiguous. I wouldn't personally write about outright violent rape. Fourth, I try my best to make it at least slightly plausible that the victim would enjoy it, because I don't get off on violence against people, or on the idea that my readers enjoy portraits of human suffering. Is that being unrealistic? Sure, but I don't feel fiction has to be realistic. The key in a story like this--and it's tough to pull off with this subject matter--is verisimilitude, i.e., making the unrealistic just realistic enough to pull it off for the purposes of the story. It doesn't have to hold up to the scrutiny of the real world.

6. Let me give a specific example. I'm working on a story where a woman on a corporate mission visits an island in the South Pacific ruled and controlled by an enigmatic but highly intelligent and attractive Sultan, with whom her company wishes to do business. She violates the law of the island and as punishment has to join the Sultan's harem of sex slaves for one year. The relationship between the two becomes more one of cat and mouse rather than assailant and victim. They're both intelligent people, and she finds herself reluctantly attracted to him. Realistic? Of course not. And I'm still not sure I can pull it off the way I want to. But I'm going to try.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

I think a lot of people have hit this topic on the head here... and it's always interesting getting new takes on it without it spiraling into some big argument of morality and reality. I really think trying to find a grey area here is mostly in regards to one's own moral compass and not wanting to be seen as creepy or mentally unstable. However, if the victim character has said no, is crying, distressed, or is threatened/blackmailed/forced into a situation they don't want to be then it is rape. Even if they have a positive physical reaction to it or derive enjoyment. Even if they eventually accept that is happening mentally and even grow to care for the aggressor... no means no. I don't make exceptions for that realism in fantasy, but I DO acknowledge very much that non-con erotica is just that... a fantasy.

With the exception of CNC as described by a few other members already (where the parameters are established between a couple and they are both consensually acting out a rape fantasy), everything else I consider rape to varying degrees of evil/intensity. I have felt very fortunate not to come across any such material in the NC/R category that made me squeamish and feel like it was too real to be a written fantasy here. It could exist, and far worse than written rape fantasies exist on the internet on the whole--I'm not going to go look for it, nor do I feel it's my job to police other authors' content. That's why we have guidelines, and Laurel and Manu.

I've got a series in the NC/R category, and it is quite well received. While I'm not certain yet if I intend to make a major habit of publishing in NC/R especially to the degree of intensity this particular story goes (it does get very dark and brutal) I don't sugar coat what I'm writing and make certain to warn anyone who happens by it in an Author's Note heading before the story even begins. I leave my worries there, even without publishing controversial content I know I can't make everyone happy... but as long as I'm telling a story, and I'm happy with it, I really don't care to please the world with it.

Some people might hate it which tends to make me wonder why they're even reading in the NC/R category to begin with, but quite a few people love it, it got it's own little following who are very invested in the story and above all... it's a wildly unrealistic fantasy, before it is erotica. As far as the rules go, I don't see any issue with it, it's very clear what is allowed and what isn't to me... and I know some things do slip through the cracks, but I don't feel it's because the guidelines are too lax so much as the person vetting stories just doesn't have time to go over it all with a fine-tooth comb.

 

[lovecraft68]

I recently asked someone here to take a look at something I wrote, which they were kind enough to do, and they confirmed what I suspected. I don't have a clue when it comes to NC/R. What I know for myself-and I think someone mentions here-is I find a story that's true NC to be less creepy than the "I was raped and hated it for 5k words, but suddenly in the span of a paragraph I came five times and professed my undying love for my assailant.

 

[PeytonMirabelle]

how do you stop CNC being NC or rape? Where's your line? Do you find yourself rubbing up against it, or crossing it?

Along the lines of what Bramblethorn said, turning it into a roleplay worked out in advance. I wrote one along those lines (my first story on Lit, for that matter) and it was pretty well-received in category.

I try to think of it as the difference between paintball and actual battle. The former apes the latter, has all the superficial resemblance in thought and action but underneath that veneer, everyone involved knows it's not real ... even if they really get into it.

When does paintball get serious and people get upset? When someone breaks the rules or gets injured. That's how I draw the line. I wouldn't be comfortable writing an NCR story that involves actual emotional/mental harm.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's CNC in the real world. In fiction you can take more liberties with fantasies. Plenty of woman have the R fantasy without ever wanting to experience it in real life and that's ok. Let them experience the loss of control to a dark and handsome man on the relative safety of the internet.

There are plenty of things you can write about that are ill advised in the real world. If you went to a party and let 10 random dudes have sex with you without condoms, statistically you would walk away with an STD. But STD don't exist unless the author decides that they exist. So write a story about it and live out your wildest fantasies from behind a keyboard. There's no reason to let reality encroach on people's online fun.

Most of this feels like a reply to somebody else's post; I wasn't looking for an explainer or justification for why NC fantasies are popular. I'm still not sold on the idea that "CNC" as applied to fiction is equivalent to "reluctance".

 

[SimonDoom]

That's CNC in the real world. In fiction you can take more liberties with fantasies. Plenty of woman have the R fantasy without ever wanting to experience it in real life and that's ok. Let them experience the loss of control to a dark and handsome man on the relative safety of the internet.

There are plenty of things you can write about that are ill advised in the real world. If you went to a party and let 10 random dudes have sex with you without condoms, statistically you would walk away with an STD. But STD don't exist unless the author decides that they exist. So write a story about it and live out your wildest fantasies from behind a keyboard. There's no reason to let reality encroach on people's online fun.

I agree with all of this, except, how is it "CNC"? CNC means consensual nonconsent, which is a contradiction. Give me an example of a story that depicts CNC. It's true that women have fantasies about rape even though they don't really want to be raped. But their fantasies are NOT CNC. Their fantasies are NC--nonconsent or rape. That's what gives the fantasy its sizzle. They're not interested in fantasizing about people who play-act rape.

I confess I'm not at all clear about what people mean by "CNC."

 

[Bramblethorn]

4. How do you stop noncon from being rape? You don't. It IS rape, morally and probably legally, or at the very least a form of sexual assault. If character X forces Y to engage in sexual activity against Y's will, it's morally rape.

This.

But a lot of folk, not limited to Literotica and not limited to erotica, are keen to create distinctions between "real rape" and "not really rape", often based on whether the perpetrator used physical force or some other method to inflict unwanted sex on somebody else. I suspect a lot of that is coming from cognitive dissonance: "everybody agrees rapists are monsters, I'm not a monster, therefore the things I do/the things that turn me on can't possibly be rape".

I'm not going to think badly of somebody for having a rape kink, as long as they don't act on that kink in nonconsensual ways. But defending that kink on the grounds of "what I fantasize about isn't rape, it's just non-con" means giving succor to the people who want to argue "what I did wasn't rape, just non-con".

As an author you face that fact and deal with it, whatever that means for you. I don't know what consensual nonconsent means. If it's consensual then it's not real nonconsent; it's voluntary power exchange, and that means it's probably BDSM or fetish, not noncon.

That's my understanding, a situation where people have agreed to play out a fantasy of nonconsent. But the OP has me wondering if some are using it differently.

 

[lc69hunter]

I personally will not, and do not read, anything in that category. It, and mind control, are so far out of my wheelhouse that I do not want my mind cluttered with it. If it not consensual and loving, with maybe some quirks thrown in, I want no part of it

 

[SimonDoom]

I personally will not, and do not read, anything in that category. It, and mind control, are so far out of my wheelhouse that I do not want my mind cluttered with it. If it not consensual and loving, with maybe some quirks thrown in, I want no part of it

That's fair and that's your right.

To me, it's no different from going to a Friday the 13th movie so you can watch Jason (or his mom) slaughtering teenagers. I see no moral difference. But people are perfectly free to say they don't want to watch Friday the 13th movies, either.

 

[lc69hunter]

That's fair and that's your right.

To me, it's no different from going to a Friday the 13th movie so you can watch Jason (or his mom) slaughtering teenagers. I see no moral difference. But people are perfectly free to say they don't want to watch Friday the 13th movies, either.

I do agree with you. I don't watch those either. Despite what you may think, based upon my comments and stories, I am a sucker for Rom/Coms, basically happy endings

 

[alohadave]

I confess I'm not at all clear about what people mean by "CNC."

Roleplay. If you are playing parts in a fantasy and you agree on a storyline that involve NC, but you've agreed with each other that you are on the same page. The characters are doing the same thing. It might not be explicitly stated or spelled out, or there may be a comment alluding to it.

 

[alohadave]

Jason (or his mom)

SPOILERS!

It was quite a surprise growing up with the awareness of Jason as a horror movie meme, and watching the first movie for the first time to find out that it was nothing like I thought it was. Then that last scene!

 

[SimonDoom]

Roleplay. If you are playing parts in a fantasy and you agree on a storyline that involve NC, but you've agreed with each other that you are on the same page. The characters are doing the same thing. It might not be explicitly stated or spelled out, or there may be a comment alluding to it.

Do you have examples of stories that fit this bill? Where the characters in the stories are pretending that their conduct is nonconsent? If you don't have examples, then CNC is not a real thing at Literotica. It's a type of role play people engage in in real life, ie., husband comes through the window and pretends to rape the wife. What does this have to do with Literotica stories?

 

[SeraphNocturne]

I have a story in my files that is CNC. A couple of friends have worked out a pattern of play intent, but don't always discuss it beforehand. He shows up at her apartment at random times, he has a key and turns off the power to her place. That is the tell that signals her the game is on.

She doesn't know when he's going to grab her or what he's going to do, exactly, but she knows she's going to fight him with everything she has and that includes damaging the goods. She also has no way of knowing it's actually him, she just trusts that it is. He's aware of that as well. There's real risk of injury to both of them, but it's also already agreed upon by them. Either one can end it at any time, but never do because they get a thrill from the anticipation and reaction.

So, it's noncon play that has rules already agreed upon. That is to say, if someone witnessed it, it would look like rape even though it's not rape to the participants.

Only reason I haven't posted the above story is because it also has a gm element to it and I'm stalled on which category it should go in between gm and noncon. Basically which category is the trumpiest trump category?

That’s an interesting dilemma… since you’re smack in the middle of the categories, I guess the deciding factor would be whether or not the NC/R crowd would be tolerant of a homosexual story, or whether the GM crowd would be tolerant of an CNC story. You might have to do some research and consult with people who publish more commonly in either category.

I’ve only happened by one story written as gay NC recently, and the story did well in category at a reluctance angle, but I feel like someone like KeithD might be able to better weigh in on how tolerant the GM category would be of a CNC story.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I have a story in my files that is CNC. A couple of friends have worked out a pattern of play intent, but don't always discuss it beforehand. He shows up at her apartment at random times, he has a key and turns off the power to her place. That is the tell that signals her the game is on.

She doesn't know when he's going to grab her or what he's going to do, exactly, but she knows she's going to fight him with everything she has and that includes damaging the goods. She also has no way of knowing it's actually him, she just trusts that it is. He's aware of that as well. There's real risk of injury to both of them, but it's also already agreed upon by them. Either one can end it at any time, but never do because they get a thrill from the anticipation and reaction.

So, it's noncon play that has rules already agreed upon. That is to say, if someone witnessed it, it would look like rape even though it's not rape to the participants.

Only reason I haven't posted the above story is because it also has a gm element to it and I'm stalled on which category it should go in between gm and noncon. Basically which category is the trumpiest trump category?

I can’t help but think of Inspector Clouseau and Kato.

 

[alohadave]

If you don't have examples, then CNC is not a real thing at Literotica.

Not off the top of my head, I don't. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.

What does this have to do with Literotica stories?

This, referring to how characters in stories do things that people do similarly to real life:

The characters are doing the same thing. It might not be explicitly stated or spelled out, or there may be a comment alluding to it.

 

[Wifetheif]

I'm primarily a non-con reluctance guy. Heck, even my deliberately misspelled handle hints at it. While a few of my stories are "heavy" I tend to eschew violence. I also base things on "reality." I put typical people, mostly but not always women, in situations that could happen in the real world. One of my most popular stories "Mrs. Cheng Pays the Debt" is based a great deal on an old Chinese girlfriend of mine and what she told me about the intersection of Western and Chinese culture. I have had Asian readers tell me I got the scenario and emotions spot on. Anne Cheng is mortified at first but agrees to protect her two small children. Very quickly she realizes that the admittedly illegal scenario has done wonders for her libido and she leaves her encounter as almost literally a new woman. I would not have attempted the story if I had not had that relationship under my belt. "I Know What I Am Doing Honey" is about a woman who agrees to serve as a collared slave for a year to a stranger for a multi-million dollar payout. While that probably hasn't happened, it COULD. Just as unhappy but quite willing "Trophy Wives" are a very real phenomenon. It IS a tight line to walk. One way around it is for there to have been some prior contact with the nonconsent initiator. Friends of the husband and bosses are always good bets. Even if she despises the guy at first, he's not a completely unknown entity like a dangerous stranger in a parking lot. I also have put some very religious people in my stories. I once traveled in fundamentalist Christian circles and there was no bigger group of perverts than my co-congregationalists! The guys lusted after every young female in the church all while "praying for deliverance." The women were all repressed and dying to cut loose. Especially bad were the wives and girlfriends who had gym memberships. They weren't there to get in shape! Deeply religious people are the easiest to corrupt. They will blame the DEVIL (always in capital letters) for their "stumbling." I knew a guy who was cheating on his wife with a hotter, blonder, younger babe who would pore over the Bible to find verses that could justify his distinctly unbiblical behavior. God "wanted" him to have her -- sure! I was propositioned regularly while married and attending church every Sunday. Some of those wives were quite forthright. Had I acted upon their desires, however, as soon as the roll in the hay concluded, they would accuse me of being a rapist or that I was possessed by the DEVIL. In short, non-consent is just as tricky in the real world as it is in the fictional one with the interpretation up for debate by the very people who l; longed for the relationship in the first place!

 

[SimonDoom]

I have a story in my files that is CNC. A couple of friends have worked out a pattern of play intent, but don't always discuss it beforehand. He shows up at her apartment at random times, he has a key and turns off the power to her place. That is the tell that signals her the game is on.

She doesn't know when he's going to grab her or what he's going to do, exactly, but she knows she's going to fight him with everything she has and that includes damaging the goods. She also has no way of knowing it's actually him, she just trusts that it is. He's aware of that as well. There's real risk of injury to both of them, but it's also already agreed upon by them. Either one can end it at any time, but never do because they get a thrill from the anticipation and reaction.

So, it's noncon play that has rules already agreed upon. That is to say, if someone witnessed it, it would look like rape even though it's not rape to the participants.

Only reason I haven't posted the above story is because it also has a gm element to it and I'm stalled on which category it should go in between gm and noncon. Basically which category is the trumpiest trump category?

I'd go Noncon. In GM you'll have GM readers freaked out by the noncon elements. In noncon you'll have hardened readers who probably can handle the GM elements. To answer your question, according to TexasTallTales, Noncon is trumpier than GM.

Your story idea is a good example of a "CNC" story that comes really close to actual NC, so I think NC readers won't be disappointed. Play up the edgy, borderline elements. Play up the FMC's uncertainty.