Is there a minimum amount of material to publish?

[jasperrocks51]

Hi everyone,

I'm writing my first story and have a few questions.

I'm at about 27,000 words, and counting, but most of that needs work, editing, rewrites etc. I'm very close to being ready with about 4,500 words.

1. Are the readers receptive to something of this length as an introduction, or would they be happier with a larger body of work for a new story?

2. Related to that, what about "dripping" chapters after that vs publishing whole sections, ie Part 1, Part 2, etc

3. How sensitive are the readers to a story fitting neatly into a given Category? Mine has a few elements of several, but I think Fantasy is the umbrella where it fits the best.

Thank you

 

[KeithD]

I've never seen an indication that a preponderance of readers here likes one presentation form (all of it or chapter by chapter) over the other.

 

[NotWise]

1. YMMV. Reader appreciation (measured by rating) tends to be low for short stories. I try for more than two Lit pages, or about 7500 words in a chunk, regardless of what you call the chunk.

2. Not sure what you mean.

3. The content of most stories probably overlap categories. The story should normally go into the category appropriate for it's main theme. SF&F is particularly flexible because it requires no particular kink.

 

[ElectricBlue]

27,000 is quite typical here on Lit. You could simply publish it as a whole, or spread across maybe three or four parts (7k - 10k chapter lengths are a bit of a sweet spot, there's a fairly high consensus on that).

Multi-chapter stories are handy in that they give you some idea how many readers actually finish the story, from the Views the last chapter gets. With a single submission, you have no idea about that. Never correlate Views = Reads. A View merely means someone has clicked in on the first page, they might click out a paragraph later.

Once a completed story has been out for a month or two, the release question of Chapters vs Standalone doesn't matter - it's how you want to present the story that counts.

If it's Sci-Fi first and foremost, I'd stick to a single category. Sci-Fi & Fantasy readers expect a bit of a mix with their story, and are pretty tolerant about a range of kinks.

 

[TheRedChamber]

As the others have said, there's no hard and fast rule. When breaking your story up, I think the important thing is to make sure that you leave your readers satisfied with what's there but also hungry for more. Generally speaking, it's good to end the first part at a point where readers can imagine for themselves where the story is going to go (even if they are wrong or there will be curveballs). They need to be starting to get a handle on what the main dramatic conflict is going to be about, and, for an erotic story, need to be interested in who the central romantic couple are and want to see them get together/take things further. Basically, you need to be able to ask them (metaphorically) 1) what do you think will happen next and 2) why should someone read this story and get positive answers from them.

Getting to that stage (if I can at all) differs per story, but it's probably easier to achieve with 7,500 words than it is with 4,500.

Regarding dripping - if you mean what I think you mean, I'd say that kind of the same thing applies. However much you publish in one chuck, it needs to demonstrate some kind of clear progress - if you're setting up a new arc or conflict then the whole what's next and why is is a good story-telling development questions are still important. If you're progressing existing arcs then the characters and plot need to move and end up in a clearly different place/situation from the start of the story.

(Or you can just make the sex in that section particularly hot/perverted)

 

[AchtungNight]

Depends on your genre. Sometimes readers want you to get to the sex quickly or are ok with plot layout first. I like to vary it a bit. You’re probably more ok with long intros and plot in fantasy/sci-fi or fanfiction. Romance or Incest can tolerate more character development too. Fetish stories or other pure stroke categories want you to get to the action fast. I think I’m right anyway. Just write the story you want, see where it goes.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I've given advice on this topic as both a reader (I won't even start to read a story that is obviously incomplete), and as an author (My readers prefer single submissions over bits and pieces).

In general, I think it depends a lot upon the category that you intend to post in and what the typical readers there expect/tolerate. I suggest that you review some of the stories in your target category and see how other writers have submitted their stories as well as the reaction of readers (views/scores/comments/favorites). As others have mentioned, the first part of any story is likely to get the most views. See how many the subsequent parts of the story received to gauge reader retention.

Oh, and the need for there to be sexual activity in every story or part of it is hugely overstated and proven untrue. Don't let some perceived need to include a sex scene interrupt the flow of your story. An interesting fantasy with compelling characters and an intriguing premise could go far here.

 

[PastMaster]

Oh, and the need for there to be sexual activity in every story or part of it is hugely overstated and proven untrue. Don't let some perceived need to include a sex scene interrupt the flow of your story. An interesting fantasy with compelling characters and an intriguing premise could go far here.

Totally agree. I have been told by my readers, and I have found myself, that if the story is good - I, and they, actually start to skip over the sex scenes because they want to see how the story progresses.

 

[jasperrocks51]

Totally agree. I have been told by my readers, and I have found myself, that if the story is good - I, and they, actually start to skip over the sex scenes because they want to see how the story progresses.

This raises a point that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. There is some kink in this story that seems to be less well received, but first and foremost, I'm attempting to write a good story that people want to follow, characters that have depth, and it has some philosophy about life that some will find interesting. To the main point, I've wondered about the possibility that there could be readers who are able to skip the sex they don't like, and just keep following the story. If so, then this lowers my anxiety level considerably.

 

[jasperrocks51]

Depends on your genre. Sometimes readers want you to get to the sex quickly or are ok with plot layout first. I like to vary it a bit. You’re probably more ok with long intros and plot in fantasy/sci-fi or fanfiction. Romance or Incest can tolerate more character development too. Fetish stories or other pure stroke categories want you to get to the action fast. I think I’m right anyway. Just write the story you want, see where it goes.

I'm staying with Fantasy, I don't think it fits anywhere else. And it's primarily a love story. I started with a longer intro but after reading it dozens of times, it started sounding blah. I was overplaying some of the romantic elements, (which suited my 'hopeless romantic' core). But, I began to see that the beginning lacked the energy to achieve liftoff. The first full blown sex scene doesn't occur until around 5k words, but I've tried to build in a lot of sexual tension and intrigue, while also developing the plot and characters.

 

[jasperrocks51]

1. YMMV. Reader appreciation (measured by rating) tends to be low for short stories. I try for more than two Lit pages, or about 7500 words in a chunk, regardless of what you call the chunk.

2. Not sure what you mean.

3. The content of most stories probably overlap categories. The story should normally go into the category appropriate for it's main theme. SF&F is particularly flexible because it requires no particular kink.

I've been advised to get the first part out there and see what happens, and that amounts to about 6.7k words. I'm still confused about chapter length, I've been using chapters to indicate major changes of 'scenes'. If I hold to my internal system, this means 5 chapters are almost ready to publish. If this were to constitute Part 1 of a longer series, I think the ending occurs at a point where there is enough resolution of certain themes to allow for satisfaction, but larger themes are not, and would leave readers curious about how they will play out. And Fantasy is definitely where it's going.

1. YMMV. Reader appreciation (measured by rating) tends to be low for short stories. I try for more than two Lit pages, or about 7500 words in a chunk, regardless of what you call the chunk.

2. Not sure what you mean.

3. The content of most stories probably overlap categories. The story should normally go into the category appropriate for it's main theme. SF&F is particularly flexible because it requires no particular kink.

 

[ElectricBlue]

To the main point, I've wondered about the possibility that there could be readers who are able to skip the sex they don't like, and just keep following the story. If so, then this lowers my anxiety level considerably.

You should be okay in Sci-Fi and Fantasy with a kink or two that in other categories might explode tiny minds. Readers in that category are mostly adults who can cope with, you know, sex stuff they might not always like.

 

[jasperrocks51]

As the others have said, there's no hard and fast rule. When breaking your story up, I think the important thing is to make sure that you leave your readers satisfied with what's there but also hungry for more. Generally speaking, it's good to end the first part at a point where readers can imagine for themselves where the story is going to go (even if they are wrong or there will be curveballs). They need to be starting to get a handle on what the main dramatic conflict is going to be about, and, for an erotic story, need to be interested in who the central romantic couple are and want to see them get together/take things further. Basically, you need to be able to ask them (metaphorically) 1) what do you think will happen next and 2) why should someone read this story and get positive answers from them.

Getting to that stage (if I can at all) differs per story, but it's probably easier to achieve with 7,500 words than it is with 4,500.

Regarding dripping - if you mean what I think you mean, I'd say that kind of the same thing applies. However much you publish in one chuck, it needs to demonstrate some kind of clear progress - if you're setting up a new arc or conflict then the whole what's next and why is is a good story-telling development questions are still important. If you're progressing existing arcs then the characters and plot need to move and end up in a clearly different place/situation from the start of the story.

(Or you can just make the sex in that section particularly hot/perverted)

I'm doing my best to incorporate a lot of what you're talking about, and I'll just have to see how it's received. Being a love story (in a Fantasy setting), building the relationship between the romantic couple has been my primary focus. And, in my constant rewrites, I've become more aware of conflict and how it affects the story. The kink alone does a lot of this but I don't want that to be the only source of tension. I threw out large sections of my early drafts specifically because they were sounding namby pamby. In one sense, I'm trying to write an erotic story that has a lot of heart, while also exploring a range of interesting concepts.

As to dripping, let's say I have a 3 part series with 6 chapters each, just to pick a number. Dripping would be publishing one chapter at a time vs a whole part at a time. I read a comment elsewhere that if someone publishes in pieces, then the next installment needs to come out pretty quickly so the reader doesn't get frustrated by delays. The section I'm about ready to publish stands on its own, I think, and leaves the reader curious about what's coming next. It's about 6,700 words, and I would like to get some feedback from readers before spending the considerable time necessary to rewrite/edit the remaining 20,000 words. If my story gets zero traction, I won't have the heart to continue.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As to dripping, let's say I have a 3 part series with 6 chapters each, just to pick a number. Dripping would be publishing one chapter at a time vs a whole part at a time. I read a comment elsewhere that if someone publishes in pieces, then the next installment needs to come out pretty quickly so the reader doesn't get frustrated by delays. The section I'm about ready to publish stands on its own, I think, and leaves the reader curious about what's coming next. It's about 6,700 words, and I would like to get some feedback from readers before spending the considerable time necessary to rewrite/edit the remaining 20,000 words. If my story gets zero traction, I won't have the heart to continue.

Chapter release only impacts the first, let's say, thirty days of a story's life. Once the whole thing has been published for a month or so, the drip rate is irrelevant.

People seem to forget a story's life is measured in years, not weeks.

If you're waiting for feedback before you write more, you're going to be very, very, disappointed. My rule of thumb (with over a hundred stories/chapters over nine years) is one comment per thousand Views. That's not much incentive, really.

Writing based on feedback is a mug's game, I reckon. It's the wrong motivation for writing.

 

[jasperrocks51]

As a reader, I get annoyed when I'm spoon-fed. I see no reason to spread chapters of fewer than 30K words unless each chapter can stand alone. If you're concerned about readers' reactions to certain kinks, it's advisable to provide a warning in the author's note beforehand.


I don't think reader preferences should be considered. I'll even go so far as to say that even you, as a reader, shouldn't be considered. Creators must always prioritize their stories and characters. We are temporary, readers are temporary, but stories are eternal. When editing, always ask yourself if it is relevant to the story or if it is just your own projection. Do the characters' fantasies, feelings, words, worldviews, and actions truly align with their characters, or are you unjustly imposing yourself?

You raise a lot of valid points, and I appreciate the wisdom in what you're saying. My reasoning goes something like this, if I were writing solely for my own enjoyment, I could just write for fun and never publish. I am writing for myself, and I've had so much fun that I'd like to continue. Maybe I'm missing something, but based on comments in this forum, it does seem possible to have a positive feedback loop that could act as motivation. And given the amount of work required to produce something ready to publish, I don't see the point in going through all of that if nobody wants to read what I have to say.

The suggestions in the latter part of your comments are currently outside of my skill as a writer. This first story is precisely my own projections and fantasies, so my objectivity is severely limited. The process of rewriting is slowly moving me in that direction, and I can see some progress. My first draft was so immature, it could only be classified as adolescent. I received some coaching which helped me claw my way into juvenile status, and I'm trying to build on that as I continue to reshape the story with greater awareness and discernment. It's been an interesting and rewarding journey.

 

[SimonDoom]

If you have a story that you anticipate will be 27,000 words, and you are determined to publish it in segments rather than all at once, then I recommend breaking it into three separately published chapters and not six. They are much more likely to be well received. There's a noticeable difference in the receptions that 4,500 word stories get and 9,000 word stories get. The longer ones are better received.

As far as the gap between publication, if you can swing it I think about a week is ideal. That way each individual chapter can cycle through the new story list and maximize attention before the next one comes out, but you're not keeping readers waiting TOO long.

 

[SouthernCrossfire]

I agree with Simon's post above.

Three longer submissions posted about a week apart will get you the maximum exposure, but don't expect Parts 2 and 3 to receive the same number of views as Part 1 (it's possible but not likely since Part 1 will continue being read over time, too). The issue with a multi-part story is if someone doesn't enjoy Part 1, they probably won't be back, and if they missed Part 1, they probably won't be willing to jump to a point later in the story (in Part 2 or 3). Of course, readers often start one-part-complete story and don't finish it either, so you never can tell how many people are reading you work versus how many take a quick look and move on. That essentially makes it like an old 6 of one, half-dozen of the other scenario.

Whatever you decide, make sure the beginning or Part 1 is interesting and well polished to capture the reader's attention and make them want to continue reading or to look forward to the next part.

Good luck!

 

[jasperrocks51]

Chapter release only impacts the first, let's say, thirty days of a story's life. Once the whole thing has been published for a month or so, the drip rate is irrelevant.

People seem to forget a story's life is measured in years, not weeks.

If you're waiting for feedback before you write more, you're going to be very, very, disappointed. My rule of thumb (with over a hundred stories/chapters over nine years) is one comment per thousand Views. That's not much incentive, really.

Writing based on feedback is a mug's game, I reckon. It's the wrong motivation for writing.

Let me pose a question to see if I can illustrate more clearly what's happening for me, that spawned my questions. Over your nine years of writing, and the thousands of hours it would take to produce that body of work (congrats BTW), did you completely ignore all of the rating and feedback mechanisms on Lit? I most certainly understand the creative drive to write and express, what I'm trying to do is connect the dots to the concerted effort needed to publish.

Chapter release only impacts the first, let's say, thirty days of a story's life. Once the whole thing has been published for a month or so, the drip rate is irrelevant.

People seem to forget a story's life is measured in years, not weeks.

If you're waiting for feedback before you write more, you're going to be very, very, disappointed. My rule of thumb (with over a hundred stories/chapters over nine years) is one comment per thousand Views. That's not much incentive, really.

Writing based on feedback is a mug's game, I reckon. It's the wrong motivation for writing.

 

[SimonDoom]

Following up further on SouthernCrossFire's comment, in terms of what to expect:

Let's say you publish your story in 3 chapters, published one week apart. Suppose they are all of about equal quality and equal length and all are in the same category.

You can expect that over time Chapter 1 will have about twice as many views as Chapter 2. If Chapter 3 is your last chapter, it might have fewer views than Chapter 2, but it might have more, but it won't have nearly as many views as Chapter 1. There is a normal and entirely predictable drop off after Chapter 1. It makes sense: not everybody who clicks on Chapter 1 will read it through or like it, and it's likely that none of those people will read Chapter 2.

When you publish Chapter 2, you will get a brief uptick in views of Chapter 1. When you publish Chapter 3, you will get a brief uptick in views for Chapters 1 and 2. Each time you publish a chapter, it boosts, somewhat, interest in the story as a whole.

What authors disagree about is whether the boosts and added interest one gets from publishing in chapters over time offsets what appears to be a strong reader bias in favor of standalone stories v. chaptered stories. 8Letters did some analysis about this a few years ago and there appears to be strong evidence indicating that standalone stories tend to receive more views than chaptered stories. What we don't know is how views translate into actual reads.

I wholly agree with SouthernCrossfire that if you're going to take the chaptered route, make sure Chapter 1 is a good one. Make sure it will standalone in the sense of providing content that will satisfy the readers of the category in which it is published. If it's an Anal story, for example, then by all means make sure Chapter 1 has good anal content. If you can't do that, then don't publish it as a chaptered story. Wait until the whole thing is done and publish it as a single standalone story.

I also agree with Electricblue66 that you should try to think long-term, not just short-term. Over the years your story will keep gaining views and reads. Don't focus too much on the reception it gets in the first month.

 

[jasperrocks51]

If you have a story that you anticipate will be 27,000 words, and you are determined to publish it in segments rather than all at once, then I recommend breaking it into three separately published chapters and not six. They are much more likely to be well received. There's a noticeable difference in the receptions that 4,500 word stories get and 9,000 word stories get. The longer ones are better received.

As far as the gap between publication, if you can swing it I think about a week is ideal. That way each individual chapter can cycle through the new story list and maximize attention before the next one comes out, but you're not keeping readers waiting TOO long.

This is very useful, thank you. Part of my dilemma is having run headfirst into the wall of reality that my early writing was so bad, that it will take a very long time to clean up the entire 27k words (I'm not just talking about grammar). My writing did improve as I got further into the story, but getting all of it ready to publish represents an enormous amount of time. And I really don't have a lot of time for this, but I have been so consumed and driven by this process, that I'm doing it anyway.

 

[SimonDoom]

This is very useful, thank you. Part of my dilemma is having run headfirst into the wall of reality that my early writing was so bad, that it will take a very long time to clean up the entire 27k words (I'm not just talking about grammar). My writing did improve as I got further into the story, but getting all of it ready to publish represents an enormous amount of time. And I really don't have a lot of time for this, but I have been so consumed and driven by this process, that I'm doing it anyway.

Here's your practical problem. If you really think you're writing is bad, and you want to use feedback for Chapter 1 as a way of making Chapter 2 better, then you're going to be screwed if in fact Chapter 1 IS bad, because those who don't like it won't bother to read Chapter 2 even if it is better. So I recommend 1) trying to make Chapter 1 as good as you can, or 2) publishing it as one story (27,000 words really isn't THAT much), or 3) trying a shorter story that you can use as a way to work on your skills.

Many new writers seem to insist on wanting to write a long story when I think they'd be better off starting with stories under 10,000 words until they feel more confident.

 

[jasperrocks51]

Following up further on SouthernCrossFire's comment, in terms of what to expect:

Let's say you publish your story in 3 chapters, published one week apart. Suppose they are all of about equal quality and equal length and all are in the same category.

You can expect that over time Chapter 1 will have about twice as many views as Chapter 2. If Chapter 3 is your last chapter, it might have fewer views than Chapter 2, but it might have more, but it won't have nearly as many views as Chapter 1. There is a normal and entirely predictable drop off after Chapter 1. It makes sense: not everybody who clicks on Chapter 1 will read it through or like it, and it's likely that none of those people will read Chapter 2.

When you publish Chapter 2, you will get a brief uptick in views of Chapter 1. When you publish Chapter 3, you will get a brief uptick in views for Chapters 1 and 2. Each time you publish a chapter, it boosts, somewhat, interest in the story as a whole.

What authors disagree about is whether the boosts and added interest one gets from publishing in chapters over time offsets what appears to be a strong reader bias in favor of standalone stories v. chaptered stories. 8Letters did some analysis about this a few years ago and there appears to be strong evidence indicating that standalone stories tend to receive more views than chaptered stories. What we don't know is how views translate into actual reads.

I wholly agree with SouthernCrossfire that if you're going to take the chaptered route, make sure Chapter 1 is a good one. Make sure it will standalone in the sense of providing content that will satisfy the readers of the category in which it is published. If it's an Anal story, for example, then by all means make sure Chapter 1 has good anal content. If you can't do that, then don't publish it as a chaptered story. Wait until the whole thing is done and publish it as a single standalone story.

I also agree with Electricblue66 that you should try to think long-term, not just short-term. Over the years your story will keep gaining views and reads. Don't focus too much on the reception it gets in the first month.

It's taken a while, but taken as a whole, I'm beginning to see more clearly, and your summary of the comments here is helping tremendously. Basically, I had an idea, and just started writing, and before I knew it, I had 27k words. I could have kept going, but I took a pause, found an editor who started cleaning up my grammar, and realized I'd better clean up what I had before adding to it. It was a completely undisciplined effort, I wrote like a madman, and just let the ideas pour onto the page. Now I'm trying to take stock of my situation, and figure out how to proceed from here.

 

[jasperrocks51]

Here's your practical problem. If you really think you're writing is bad, and you want to use feedback for Chapter 1 as a way of making Chapter 2 better, then you're going to be screwed if in fact Chapter 1 IS bad, because those who don't like it won't bother to read Chapter 2 even if it is better. So I recommend 1) trying to make Chapter 1 as good as you can, or 2) publishing it as one story (27,000 words really isn't THAT much), or 3) trying a shorter story that you can use as a way to work on your skills.

Many new writers seem to insist on wanting to write a long story when I think they'd be better off starting with stories under 10,000 words until they feel more confident.

I'm starting to wonder if the feedback I need is not from the general readership after publishing, but from beta readers who are willing to give me brutal, unvarnished critiques. I no longer think it's truly bad, I did get some feedback from an author that helped me move the needle after significant changes to how I expressed certain ideas.

 

[PastMaster]

This raises a point that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. There is some kink in this story that seems to be less well received, but first and foremost, I'm attempting to write a good story that people want to follow, characters that have depth, and it has some philosophy about life that some will find interesting. To the main point, I've wondered about the possibility that there could be readers who are able to skip the sex they don't like, and just keep following the story. If so, then this lowers my anxiety level considerably.

If the story is good enough - they will. I am writing a series of stories that has both gay and straight sex in, and some of my readers have told me that they dont like the gay sex, but they still read on for the story

 

[jasperrocks51]

I've learned a lot from all of the comments here, and I'm grateful that so many of you took the time to provide me with your thoughtful and valuable insights.

Reality is setting in, the section I thought I could publish is incomplete. I really, really wanted it to be sufficient, and it meets some of the criteria for a 'complete thought', but it's lacking something. I'll get to work and begin rewriting the subsequent sections, at least I have lots of material to work with, so that's a positive.

Looking back, I can see that a deeper issue churning beneath the surface all along has been the fear of rejection. Which is distinct from the fear of failure. I made friends with failure long ago, and consider it an ally. But rejection cuts deeper, and I haven't needed to examine that one in a while.