How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[CandiCame]

People aren't suffering in heaven. We just have to live this life before we get there. There are still things to do.

Debatable.

 

[Led_Astray]

People aren't suffering in heaven. We just have to live this life before we get there. There are still things to do.

So - he stopped the suffering but not on earth, but for "eternity".

I assumed eternity to be the afterlife. Which implies from your prior post, that *before* Jesus was crucified, people in the afterlife were suffering, and afterwards they were not.

But now you say those in heaven were not suffering. So who was? He didn't end the suffering on earth. He didn't end the suffering in heaven. One assumes he didn't end the suffering in hell, or what would be the point of sending people there.

So what suffering did he end, exactly?

I would love to pull the mother card though, and tell you "because I said so.

Spank me, mommy! I've been bad!

 

[Tryharder62]

It's the top brand in the local market. Jesus is the One True God, or rather one of the three One True Gods.

It's brand hyperbole, like Best Buy, Wonder Bread or Topps Bubble Gum.

Maybe it is because it is the best "product" and there is truth in advertising!

Debatable.

Would love to do that!

So - he stopped the suffering but not on earth, but for "eternity".

I assumed eternity to be the afterlife. Which implies from your prior post, that *before* Jesus was crucified, people in the afterlife were suffering, and afterwards they were not.

But now you say those in heaven were not suffering. So who was? He didn't end the suffering on earth. He didn't end the suffering in heaven. One assumes he didn't end the suffering in hell, or what would be the point of sending people there.

So what suffering did he end, exactly?

He will end the suffering on earth. Jesus is coming back. We don't have to suffer eternally for our sins if we believe. If you don't believe then why worry about it. Hell is just a separation from God. If you don't want him you don't have to have him.

CS Lewis. “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.

You know what it means when you assume something!

Spank me, mommy! I've been bad!

Don't make me come over there! https://youtu.be/O-018qBMlBs

 

[CNYCarol]

How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Go push your CatLicker crap elsewhere. IF you actually KNOW scripture, the ONLY man that is currently alive and IN Heaven is Jesus.

Read 1st Thessalonians 4, ALL that have died are currently in "sheol", in English that means "grevedom".

NO ONE, not even King David nor Abraham are alive today.

Even water Baptism does NOTHING! There is another Baptism, the baptism of "PNEUMA HAGION". That is the only baptism that will save.

 

[CandiCame]

Would love to do that!

I would be in eternal torment if I had to serve the Christian god for all eternity. I'd be fighting tooth and nail to get out of that situation- except I couldn't. Because supposedly I'd be happy to do it.

Which means it isn't me. It's a brainwashed shell. Humans were an experiment in free will, and apparently that experiment ends if you get into Heaven. Then you become a happy husk who doesn't care that all your friends and relatives are being tortured for all eternity, who would make no move to save them, because he wouldn't think to.

That's not /real/. That's torture. That's being broken in like an unruly horse with an abusive trainer. That's a programmed little robot who lives to serve, to worship, and is happy because of the attention he gets from his master- which is basically what subspace is, and it's supposed to be TEMPORARY. Your dom should know it isn't you- that's why you HAVE a dom; the dom is the designated driver of sex. So you choose someone who isn't a genocidal baby-murderer, who DOESN'T curse kids to the 4th generation for shit their grandpa did that they had nothing to do with. You choose the kindest, most responsible person you know. Not this fucking basket-case who genuinely does not care if I live or die, because to him I'm just a servant, a disposable experiment who can be thrown away on a whim. A guy who had his own child tortured, betrayed by his best friend, and murdered to prove a point. That's not a small thing, that's the cornerstone of the religion. The only way I could be in the same room with someone like that and not try to attack him- even if I knew full well it could kill me- was if I was as brainwashed as Christians tell me I will be.

No person with a functional human brain can live like that- so your functional human brain is taken away and replaced by a dopamine rush. The only reason that Heaven looks tolerable is because they play the alternative up to make it look as shitty as possible. If I converted right now, washed away my sins and fully bought into it, and it turned out to be real- I would never see my friends and family again. They would be being /tortured/. My /child/, my unbaptized, probably-going-to-sin in her lifetime, /child/- would be tortured for all eternity. And I would know about it. And I wouldn't want to stop it.

I can think of no greater torment. I literally can't think of anything worse.

 

[CandiCame]

In my case, I don't mean to be boastful. I just get excited. Imagine you're on a thread about pizza. Some people like thin crust ......some people like thick crust.....some people like gluten free crust .....some people hate pizza. Meanwhile you have just had a pizza that has forever changed the meaning of the word pizza. You want to share every detail. You want your friends to try it. It is Pizza Perfection.

I really do have a thing about pizza.

Think of something that has changed the very core of who you are. It has changed you for the better. I just kind of get carried away cuz I would love for you to try it. I respect that you are on your own path if you choose not to.

Man now I want pizza!

Yeah, I used to be a club kid too. This is a really, really dangerous mindset. This is incredibly unhealthy. You learn in therapy how not to do this for a BUNCH of reasons.

1: It's aggravating as shit
2: It's ALWAYS over something destructive because everything is destructive in obsessive, addictive excess
3: It causes you to surround yourself with people who are also into whatever your obsession is, and that leads to groupthink, which leads to othering behavior. It makes it a thousand times harder to break the addiction.
4: You might convert people to your vice- because let's call a spade a spade, which can cause them to join the group-think and get the same obsession, which is just detrimental to the society and creates a culture where this group-think becomes so viable that it gets hard to change- even if you have science telling you that drugs kill you or that faith healers and prayer don't work.
5: It isolates people outside the group. If all you talk about is partying or Jesus or whatever, then people who don't do that don't want to be around you, because of point #1, and eventually you DO start casually forgetting about them. With religion this is PARTICULARLY dangerous, because this isolation and othering coupled with the groupthink is what causes people to see people who AREN'T their religion as less human than they are.
6: Once you break out of it, you realize that you were a goddamn idiot and regret your actions. This is a huge thing. You realize that you wasted time you can never get back negatively affecting your community.

The link between addiction and religion is well known- that's why organizations like AA and NA exist. And why they don't work. Immersion therapy is the only known way to prevent relapses with predictable success, because it actually uses a variety of techniques to treat addictive personality disorder and teach you how to control it. AA and NA teach you how to replace one addiction (the drugs) with another (religion) without ever addressing the underlying CAUSE- the thing that gets you addicted and causes these repetitive negative behaviors and thought schemas. They'll tell you that's what they're doing, too- which is why it doesn't work. If you don't cure the disease and just switch the focus- then the person can switch it back on a whim.

Obsessions are NEVER good. This is literally what makes religion dangerous. If it's just something that a person is using as an emotional crutch because they're going through a hard time, and they NEED an external force to rely on even if they have to make one up- that's fine with me. It's a part of scaffolding that humans naturally do during development, and it makes sense that some people would do it in adulthood.

It's once it becomes this obsession that you feel an urge to talk about, to explain to other people, to organize, to create groups of like-minded people- that it gets dangerous. There's a slippery slope between, "I love Jesus!" to "I'm a part of this church!" to "I love this preacher!" to "This preacher says that we should send kids to gay conversion camps to be tortured because of Leviticus!"

If it becomes a part of your identity- that's when you know you've gone too far. "I smoke" and "I'm a smoker" are two statements that make a very important distinction like, "I take drugs" and "I am a junkie" or "I follow the teachings of Christ" and "I am a Christian". "I do" statements mean that you aren't on a dangerous path. "I am" statements mean that you've fucked up and you need to fix it.

"My name is Candi and I'm a X"

Is a different statement than,

"My name is Candi and I DO X".

The fact that NA FORCES you to self-identify is another reason it doesn't work. You can change what you do- you can't really change what you are.

 

[Tryharder62]

I can think of no greater torment. I literally can't think of anything worse.

That is just the thing. If you don't want to go to heaven you don't have to! So why so angry?

 

[Generic_chick]

That is just the thing. If you don't want to go to heaven you don't have to! So why so angry?

I'd say that what you quoted didn't seem angry to me. It sounded profoundly sad.

And if what you posit were true, it doesn't change the reality that that little child, unabaptised and sinning, is going to be tormented for eternity and their parent won't want to change it.

 

[CandiCame]

That is just the thing. If you don't want to go to heaven you don't have to! So why so angry?

I'm not angry. I never gave any indication that I was.

And it's not that easy. If the Christian god exists, it's very possible that there is no other afterlife. There are tons of places in the bible where it says that Heaven is the ONLY afterlife- sometimes deeds matter, sometimes they don't. Because of canonical inconsistencies, I could very well be doomed to this existence. It's possible that hell exists and no human person goes there- it's reserved for the angels who betrayed god (and interestingly, when you look at their motives, they're exactly the same as mine. They didn't want to be brainwashed servants, and when they saw the free will that humanity had, it unlocked something in them, and they wanted it. That's all they wanted- the freedom from thought-policing. They weren't WRONG to want that. Every sentient creature should be free to think and feel whatever it wants.) It's possible that humans who don't make good servants are simply erased from the book of life and cease to exist. The bible is not super clear on an afterlife. But NONE of them are good or worth spending a lifetime toiling to get into.

You said that you wanted to debate whether or not Heaven was a good place. I told you why it's literally the worst thing my mind can conceive of. I didn't get emotional at all while doing so, though emotions are normal human responses, so it wouldn't hurt my case if I did.

Heaven is a torturous hellscape of brainwashing and servitude, as seen by contemporary Christianity, and as described, several times, in the bible.

But people are so gung-ho about this bullshit that they're doing horrible things on Earth, influencing my life and making it shittier. They are /actively harming me/. You don't seem to understand that. This isn't a theoretical thing to debate on the internet. According to some Christians, I was born a sin- my parents mixed tribes and I'm a walking tribute to that sin who will be cursed regardless of what I do. I was conceived out of wedlock, again, born a sin. Your god has hated me since I was in the womb, and according to Deuteronomy, not only was I cursed for their sin of conceiving me breaking a BUNCH of laws, but my descendants will be cursed for 10 generations. So according to that book, even if I repented, I couldn't get into Heaven- but according to others, I can.

The closer you look at it, the more the whole thing falls apart. Yet, people are still out here acting like we should be passing laws according to this book. Which is not cool. It is making society worse for me, in particular.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

 

[Tryharder62]

If it becomes a part of your identity- that's when you know you've gone too far. "I smoke" and "I'm a smoker" are two statements that make a very important distinction like, "I take drugs" and "I am a junkie" or "I follow the teachings of Christ" and "I am a Christian". "I do" statements mean that you aren't on a dangerous path. "I am" statements mean that you've fucked up and you need to fix it.

"My name is Candi and I'm a X"

Is a different statement than,

"My name is Candi and I DO X".

The fact that NA FORCES you to self-identify is another reason it doesn't work. You can change what you do- you can't really change what you are.

Well I say:

"My name is Kathy and I am a Christian"

Because I can't go around saying

"My name is Kathy and I do Jesus":

I don't think it is unhealthy to ask someone for help when you need it.

Christians are not weak-minded, but they readily admit their spiritual weakness without Christ. The fact is that we all have a spiritual impediment called sin (Romans 3:23), and we all need Christ's power to overcome it. Admitting the fact is nothing to be ashamed of. No one makes fun of a handicapped man who uses a crutch to compensate for his physical disability. Neither should anyone ridicule a Christian whose faith compensates for his spiritual disability. There's nothing wrong with a needy person seeking help.

 

[CandiCame]

Well I say:

"My name is Kathy and I am a Christian"

Because I can't go around saying

"My name is Kathy and I do Jesus":

I don't think it is unhealthy to ask someone for help when you need it.

Christians are not weak-minded, but they readily admit their spiritual weakness without Christ. The fact is that we all have a spiritual impediment called sin (Romans 3:23), and we all need Christ's power to overcome it. Admitting the fact is nothing to be ashamed of. No one makes fun of a handicapped man who uses a crutch to compensate for his physical disability. Neither should anyone ridicule a Christian whose faith compensates for his spiritual disability. There's nothing wrong with a needy person seeking help.

"My name is Kathy, and I follow the teachings of Christ."

That actually is how people originally presented that information, if you read older books, manuscripts and stuff. It gets more flowery, but it wasn't always an identity. "I follow the teachings of our lord Jesus Christ" or something like that.

Again, though, the Heaven thing. Why would anyone want that?

Edit: Typo

Edit #2: Also, that's exactly what I said. Using it as a crutch is fine- making it part of your identity is a slippery slope into stoning me to death.

 

[Tryharder62]

I'd say that what you quoted didn't seem angry to me. It sounded profoundly sad.

And if what you posit were true, it doesn't change the reality that that little child, unabaptised and sinning, is going to be tormented for eternity and their parent won't want to change it.

I think you are confused about 1 Corinthians 7:14. That is simply a verse about believers who marry unbelievers staying together so the child can be exposed to Christianity.

Luke 18:15-16 New International Version (NIV)
The Little Children and Jesus
15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Mathew 18:3
New International Version
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Babies and children go to heaven until the time they can formally make up thier own mind is my belief. We all get to choose!

 

[Tryharder62]

CandiCame;89896281]"My name is Kathy, and I follow the teachings of Christ."

That actually is how people originally presented that information, if you read older books, manuscripts and stuff. It gets more flowery, but it wasn't always an identity. "I follow the teachings of our lord Jesus Christ" or something like that.

Oooh I like it!

Again, though, the Heaven thing. Why would anyone want that?

Well I don't picture it the way you do. I have thought it might get boring praising the Lord for eternity. Sometimes I get bored after an hour in church. I don't think I understand how amazing it is going to be.

Edit: Typo

Edit #2: Also, that's exactly what I said. Using it as a crutch is fine- making it part of your identity is a slippery slope into stoning me to death.

Did we agree?

 

[Led_Astray]

No one makes fun of a handicapped man who uses a crutch to compensate for his physical disability. Neither should anyone ridicule a Christian whose faith compensates for his spiritual disability. There's nothing wrong with a needy person seeking help.
[/I]

On the other hand, if a man using a crutch then started to insist that I too was crippled and must start using the exact same crutch as him, and if I refused I was going to be tortured for all eternity...

Well, I might just consider him a bit of a nutcase.

Even worse in when that same man convinces perfectly healthy children that they too are in need of a crutch (and its their fault!), leaving them confused, damaged and bearing guilt for something they didn't do. That would be pretty much child abuse.

 

[Tryharder62]

On the other hand, if a man using a crutch then started to insist that I too was crippled and must start using the exact same crutch as him, and if I refused I was going to be tortured for all eternity...

Well, I might just consider him a bit of a nutcase.

Even worse in when that same man convinces perfectly healthy children that they too are in need of a crutch (and its their fault!), leaving them confused, damaged and bearing guilt for something they didn't do. That would be pretty much child abuse.

Well I only know one perfect dude that lived on this earth. Everyone can use a little help now and then. We all have different "hurts". Just my opinion! Again if you don't believe there is a God don't worry about it.......or are you secretely wondering, in your heart, if it could be true?

Yes, I could be a nutcase!
Kathy

 

[CandiCame]

Well I only know one perfect dude that lived on this earth. Everyone can use a little help now and then. We all have different "hurts". Just my opinion! Again if you don't believe there is a God don't worry about it.......or are you secretely wondering, in your heart, if it could be true?

Yes, I could be a nutcase!
Kathy

Well, a big part of it is that the REASONS they give us for being "crippled" to continue this metaphor, are bullshit. I have a spiritual birth defect because my parents didn't have a piece of paper- that SHOULD be on them, not me, even by Christian's own logic.

And we ought not be sending kids to literal torture camps to "cure" them of the gay.

Real children and being psychologically, emotionally, and physically tortured over PERCEIVED defects- not even real ones.

 

[CandiCame]

Well I don't picture it the way you do. I have thought it might get boring praising the Lord for eternity. Sometimes I get bored after an hour in church. I don't think I understand how amazing it is going to be.





Did we agree?

The reason that you're not getting how "amazing" it's going to be is because yu have a human brain that can comprehend emotions other than "happiness through slavery". That will be stripped from you in Heaven. You'll be a husk. A shadow of your former self.

And yeah, my problem isn't that religious people need their faith to get them through hard times. People do crazy shit, start believing crazy shit, when times get tough. It's when they pretend that that crazy shit is TRUE and start trying to pawn it off on other people and create a culture of bullshit that gets DANGEROUS. Real people are suffering for their fake beliefs that are not rooted in reality.

You're supposed to get better and realize that what you did was a crutch, and that you don't need it anymore- not to try to get other people to use a crutch they don't need.

 

[Tryharder62]

Well, a big part of it is that the REASONS they give us for being "crippled" to continue this metaphor, are bullshit. I have a spiritual birth defect because my parents didn't have a piece of paper- that SHOULD be on them, not me, even by Christian's own logic.

And we ought not be sending kids to literal torture camps to "cure" them of the gay.

Real children and being psychologically, emotionally, and physically tortured over PERCEIVED defects- not even real ones.

I am not getting the piece of paper reference. I don't think we should torture anyone.

The reason that you're not getting how "amazing" it's going to be is because yu have a human brain that can comprehend emotions other than "happiness through slavery". That will be stripped from you in Heaven. You'll be a husk. A shadow of your former self.

And yeah, my problem isn't that religious people need their faith to get them through hard times. People do crazy shit, start believing crazy shit, when times get tough. It's when they pretend that that crazy shit is TRUE and start trying to pawn it off on other people and create a culture of bullshit that gets DANGEROUS. Real people are suffering for their fake beliefs that are not rooted in reality.

You're supposed to get better and realize that what you did was a crutch, and that you don't need it anymore- not to try to get other people to use a crutch they don't need.

Now what I did was the crutch instead of my belief in Jesus? No it is a sin. The stupid things humans do in the name of Jesus is on them. Not on Jesus. He told us the important thing to do is love one another. There isn't torture in heaven. If you don't need Jesus so be it.

 

[CandiCame]

There isn't torture in heaven. If you don't need Jesus so be it.

Try to come up with something MORE torturous. Heaven is nothing but torture.

 

[Tryharder62]

Try to come up with something MORE torturous. Heaven is nothing but torture.

A million ants eating your eyeball out. Being hit by a train, but not dying, and being drug for miles. Fingernails screeching against the chalkboard while acid rock is playing in the background for eternity. Having to look at a Tanner's apple orchard pumpkin bar but never being allowed to eat it. Ooooh that other place called Hell.

 

[Tryharder62]

Oops double post

 

[CandiCame]

A million ants eating your eyeball out. Being hit by a train, but not dying, and being drug for miles. Fingernails screeching against the chalkboard while acid rock is playing in the background for eternity. Having to look at a Tanner's apple orchard pumpkin bar but never being allowed to eat it. Ooooh that other place called Hell.

None of those things are worse than knowing my child is being tortured and not wanting to stop it- being HAPPY about it. I would do any of those things a thousand times to prevent, stop, or even lessen her torture. Heaven is worse than anything you've listed here by a LONG shot.

I have a bug phobia- and I can still say without a shadow of a doubt that if that omnipowerful sadist said "If you let me put these ants in your eyes so they can eat it from the inside out, I'll let her go."

I wouldn't have to think about it. If I knew I couldn't fight him and my ONLY option was to appeal to mercy from someone I, even in my heart of hearts KNEW didn't have any- I should still WANT to do it. I shouldn't magically turn into a selfish prick who knows no mercy, love, or empathy just because I want to serve some master.

But I wouldn't want to do it. I would be happy to see my baby suffer to appease someone else.

Which is a fate worse than any hell any Christian has ever tried to throw at me.

I thought you said you were a parent. I don't understand the mindset.

Edit: Typo

 

[Tryharder62]

None of those things are worse than knowing my child is being tortured and not wanting to stop it- being HAPPY about it. I would do any of those things a thousand times to prevent, stop, or even lessen her torture. Heaven is worse than anything you've listed here by a LONG shot.

I have a bug phobia- and I can still say without a shadow of a doubt that if that omnipowerful sadist said "If you let me put these ants in your eyes so they can eat it from the inside out, I'll let her go."

I wouldn't have to think about it. If I knew I couldn't fight him and my ONLY option was to appeal to mercy from someone I, even in my heart of hearts KNEW didn't have any- I should still WANT to do it. I shouldn't magically turn into a selfish prick who knows no mercy, love, or empathy just because I want to serve some master.

But I wouldn't want to do it. I would be happy to see my baby suffer to appease someone else.

Which is a fate worse than any hell any Christian has ever tried to throw at me.


I thought you said you were a parent. I don't understand the mindset.

Edit: Typo

Seriously? I wouldn't give my sons up for you either. You have to remember Jesus, God and the Holy spirit are one. He actually took the punishment for our wrong doings. He didn't torture anyone....humans did. My son once took the blame for something my other son did. He loved him that much. Think of how much God loves us to take that burden from all of us.

I misunderstood your question earlier or I never would have joked about it.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Salvation comes by placing your FAITH in Jesus Christ and BELIEVING in your heart that He died and rose again for your sins.