Generational differences in perspective

[countdowntolov3]

I've just assumed that "Gen Z is make-it-rich focused" is due to the rise of streamers/influencers in their media. These media personalities are by their nature extremely wealthy (success in that space is lucrative) and they also produce content that is often authentic (or appears authentic) to their real lives and is designed to create a social attachment with their viewers. This leaves their viewers somewhat socially attached to folks who have piles of money and feeds a worldview that success looks like that.

Obviously, talking about generational trends here. Not every Gen Z kid (er, young adult, now).

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I saw two articles online this morning that made me think about this thread.

One was about the fascination Millennials and Gen Zers have about getting rich. Polls, so this article says, indicate these cohorts are much more obsessed with the idea of making money and money they don't have than preceding generations. Based on conversations I've had with my kids and observations I've made, I'd say this is somewhat right. I certainly knew people who wanted to strike it rich coming out of college in the 1980s, and some of them did. But my impression is that there's a greater focus even than before on making as much money as possible as soon as possible and then retiring.

I also read an article about the fascination and disapproval some young people seem to have toward age gap relationships--in this case the relationship between actor Aaron Taylor-Johnson and his wife, who is 23 years older than he is and started dating him when he was 18. This is my impression as well--that the younger generation is much more likely to criticize behaviors like these, in relationships, as inappropriate.

Admittedly, this is all very non-scientific, and I never put much stock in the empirical worth of "studies" reported in social media.

I think the biggest difference between my generation and the past in terms of money/wealth isn't the interest in making it. People have always wanted to get rich, but now it's about getting in and getting out. They want to make enough money to quit and live an Instagram lifestyle. Many of my peers can't wrap their heads around why people like Warren Buffett and Elon Musk are still working.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I've just assumed that "Gen Z is make-it-rich focused" is due to the rise of streamers/influencers in their media. These media personalities are by their nature extremely wealthy (success in that space is lucrative) and they also produce content that is often authentic (or appears authentic) to their real lives and is designed to create a social attachment with their viewers. This leaves their viewers somewhat socially attached to folks who have piles of money and feeds a worldview that success looks like that.

Obviously, talking about generational trends here. Not every Gen Z kid (er, young adult, now).

Most of those media personalities aren't as wealthy as they'd have you believe. The top tenth of a percent like Mr. Beast are making crazy money, but most people down stream are lucky to be breaking 6 figures. It's a quite a bit like publishing. You've got a handful of extremely wealthy authors, the household names, then you've got a lot of people scraping by.
The problem with social media is that most people watching don't know that.
OnlyFans is probably the worst about that. something like less than a percent make more than a $1000 a month.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

I'm not obsessed with money. I'm obsessed with stability.

Seconded, at least from the US.

I have a friend who just started became eligible for Medicare. The rest of us were green with envy. As far as I'm concerned, she's made it. Yes, we can complain about funding and coverage and so on. It's not perfect. But she has healthcare for life, even if she can't work anymore. You know what's highly correlated with needing expensive medical care? Inability to work the sort of lucrative jobs that offer good health insurance.

When I think about what it costs to stop worrying (in the US) today...yeah, I want to be rich. Isn't that what you are nowadays, if you can buy a house, and see the doctor, and send your kids to college? I won't even get into doing it on one income, as used to be the norm. Most people in my generation can't do that on two incomes.

We're obsessed with money like castaways are obsessed with water.

People have always wanted to get rich, but now it's about getting in and getting out.

This I attribute to (again in the US) the hellscape that paid employment has become. I don't really know anyone my age who expects work to be rewarding or even okay. The assumption is that we'll be abused and exploited.

 

[SimonDoom]

When I was a kid and teen, we used to always watch stuff and think or tell each other, "man, what they have thought about this in the 50s? They would have freaked out!"

Now every time a movie more than 20 years old comes up somebody goes "that sure couldn't be made today!"

I notice this a lot in social media feeds. "You couldn't do this today/get this published today/say this today/make this movie today/wear this today."

My view about things is that some things should be required, some things should be forbidden, and most things should fall in the middle and be tolerated. I think the range of things in the middle today is smaller than it was in the past, and I see that as regress, not progress. There's so much carping and fussing and shaming over what you must or must not do. It was not at all like this when I was in college in the 1980s, and I went to a school that was well left of center by the standard of its day. We see some of this attitude in this forum, and I think there's been a bit of an uptick in this sort of talk in just the 7+ years I've participated here. The "you shouldn't say or write that" attitude.

 

[SimonDoom]

The assumption is that we'll be abused and exploited.

And I cannot help, as a middle-aged person, saying, "Oh, Please." Working conditions for the average American today are far better than for the vast majority of people that have ever lived on this planet, or better, for that matter, than they were for Americans living a generation ago, or two generations ago. Conditions are safer, employers are far more regulated in what they can say or do to workers, benefits exist that never existed before. Discrimination and harassment are regulated in ways they weren't before. Working conditions have never been LESS abusive or exploitative in the USA than they are now.

The difference between now and then is not reality, it's expectations. Yes, housing is very expensive. At the same time, it's true that the average family home in the USA is significantly larger today than it was in 1970, and home ownership rates are not that different.

In my profession, starting salaries for those right out of graduate school are around three times what they were when I started, or a little more, in nominal terms. And housing prices are . . . a little over three times what they were then. It's not as night and day different as people seem to think. People expect a lot more today regarding things like travel, entertainment, communication, big screen TVs, restaurants, toys, everything. In the past, people scrimped and saved to get a house, and they gave up all those other things. That's the way my parents were. When I was a little kid, we lived in a small house, had a crappy little black and white TV, never traveled, and had no fancy clothes. My father became a successful professional, but until he was in his mid-30s he lived on a shoestring. Nobody wants or expects to live that way anymore. That's the big difference.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I notice this a lot in social media feeds. "You couldn't do this today/get this published today/say this today/make this movie today/wear this today."

My view about things is that some things should be required, some things should be forbidden, and most things should fall in the middle and be tolerated. I think the range of things in the middle today is smaller than it was in the past, and I see that as regress, not progress. There's so much carping and fussing and shaming over what you must or must not do. It was not at all like this when I was in college in the 1980s, and I went to a school that was well left of center by the standard of its day. We see some of this attitude in this forum, and I think there's been a bit of an uptick in this sort of talk in just the 7+ years I've participated here. The "you shouldn't say or write that" attitude.

Unfortunately, that's very true. Usually hidden under the guise of being "nice". We've created this idea that words cause "harm" to certain people but not to others, and golly why wouldn't you want to be nice and "just treat people as human"?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

And I cannot help, as a middle-aged person, saying, "Oh, Please." Working conditions for the average American today are far better than for the vast majority of people that have ever lived on this planet, or better, for that matter, than they were for Americans living a generation ago, or two generations ago. Conditions are safer, employers are far more regulated in what they can say or do to workers, benefits exist that never existed before. Discrimination and harassment are regulated in ways they weren't before. Working conditions have never been LESS abusive or exploitative in the USA than they are now.

The difference between now and then is not reality, it's expectations. Yes, housing is very expensive. At the same time, it's true that the average family home in the USA is significantly larger today than it was in 1970, and home ownership rates are not that different.

In my profession, starting salaries for those right out of graduate school are around three times what they were when I started, or a little more, in nominal terms. And housing prices are . . . a little over three times what they were then. It's not as night and day different as people seem to think. People expect a lot more today regarding things like travel, entertainment, communication, big screen TVs, restaurants, toys, everything. In the past, people scrimped and saved to get a house, and they gave up all those other things. That's the way my parents were. When I was a little kid, we lived in a small house, had a crappy little black and white TV, never traveled, and had no fancy clothes. My father became a successful professional, but until he was in his mid-30s he lived on a shoestring. Nobody wants or expects to live that way anymore. That's the big difference.

My dad loves to point out the scene in Back to the Future where they are watching TV at Marty's grandparents' house and he makes a comment about having two TVs. His uncle (as a child) responds with "Wow, you must be rich." and grandmother says, "Oh, he's just teasing you. Nobody has two TVs."

Couples my age go through a house on House Hunters that would have been your generations dream starter home and complain endlessly about how small it is, how dated it is, it doesn't have granite countertops and I just couldn't possibly cook in that...
Expectations have definitely changed.

 

[AlexBailey]

My dad loves to point out the scene in Back to the Future where they are watching TV at Marty's grandparents' house and he makes a comment about having two TVs. His uncle (as a child) responds with "Wow, you must be rich." and grandmother says, "Oh, he's just teasing you. Nobody has two TVs."

Couples my age go through a house on House Hunters that would have been your generations dream starter home and complain endlessly about how small it is, how dated it is, it doesn't have granite countertops and I just couldn't possibly cook in that...
Expectations have definitely changed.

That’s only a particular well to do perspective.

The average cost of housing to income ratio is a different reality than it was a few decades ago. My kids are painfully aware that the longer they wait, the more out of reach homeownership may become. They’re very realistic about the need to buckle down to get in as early as they can so they can have the better things later in life.

It’s a very different perspective than I grew up with. I bought in much later than I could have and it cost me. I shared my thoughts with my kids and they diligently looked things up. They have respect from their parents and broad easy access to information, unlike I did when I was their age.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That’s only a particular well to do perspective.

The average cost of housing to income ratio is a different reality than it was a few decades ago. My kids are painfully aware that the longer they wait, the more out of reach homeownership may become. They’re very realistic about the need to buckle down to get in as early as they can so they can have the better things later in life.

It’s a very different perspective than I grew up with. I bought in much later than I could have and it cost me. I shared my thoughts with my kids and they diligently looked things up. They have respect from their parents and broad easy access to information, unlike I did when I was their age.

It's certainly a complicated issue. If I were in the position I am in now financially with the rates and housing costs from 5 years ago I could afford to buy a house. Unfortunately, prices have gone up significantly as have mortgage rates so I'm still in an apartment diligently saving.
Expectations have changed though. They don't even build 2 bedroom houses anymore, which is ironic when you consider that family sizes are significantly smaller than they used to be.

 

[lustychimera]

It's certainly a complicated issue. If I were in the position I am in now financially with the rates and housing costs from 5 years ago I could afford to buy a house. Unfortunately, prices have gone up significantly as have mortgage rates so I'm still in an apartment diligently saving.
Expectations have changed though. They don't even build 2 bedroom houses anymore, which is ironic when you consider that family sizes are significantly smaller than they used to be.

Because they're building homes for companies, not families.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

In my profession, starting salaries for those right out of graduate school are around three times what they were when I started, or a little more, in nominal terms. And housing prices are . . . a little over three times what they were then.

Yeah, nominal terms is the wrong way to make these comparisons. Here are some inflation-adjusted figures.

"Salary Trends Through Salary Survey: A Historical Perspective on Starting Salaries for New College Graduates" by National Association of Colleges and Employers. https://www. n a c e w e b .org/job-market/compensation/salary-trends-through-salary-survey-a-historical-perspective-on-starting-salaries-for-new-college-graduates/

See figure 2, which shows starting salary of college graduates hovering around 40-50k since 1970, when denominated in 2006 dollars.

"Inflation Adjusted Housing Prices" by InflationData.com https:// i n f l a t i o n d a t a .com/articles/inflation-adjusted-prices/inflation-adjusted-housing-prices/

See the chart titled "Inflation Adjusted Housing Index" which plots data from the Fed's S&P/Case Shiller National Home Price Index showing prices approximately doubling between 1970 and 2022 (if denominated in 2000 dollars) or twelve-fold (not a typo!) in nominal terms.

(The latter makes me want a citation for your claim that prices have only tripled since you got started, which I thought was 1970 but maybe isn't?)

People expect a lot more today regarding things like travel, entertainment, communication, big screen TVs, restaurants, toys, everything.

There's a kernel of truth here. Some things have gotten a lot cheaper. Televisions, for example. I don't know how much money a 27" color TV would have cost in 1970, and a flat screen wouldn't have been available for any price. Nowadays I don't think 27" is even a big television. But that's been accompanied by a decline in the importance of the television as a home good. I don't have one and I don't know anyone who does. People my age don't "watch television." They watch made-for-streaming shows on their computers.

In general, the choice of which goods to use when comparing prices is a complicated and fraught subject. Adjustments to the basket used for, e.g., the consumer price index have enormous consequences. This unfortunately, is not something I know enough to argue with you about, but if you want to show me some citations I'll be happy to read them.

 

[MrPixel]

I don't know how much money a 27" color TV would have cost in 1970

27" didn't exist then. 24" was considered the largest that real people could buy, and that was a semi-round picture tube. ~$450 when Dad bought our RCA that year, and that was highly discounted through a membership buying service. According to the inflation calculators, that would be roughly $3400 today.

In 1963 my parents had a house custom built; $8000 for the in-town lot in a tony neighborhood, ~$27K to build. So $35K then. Same house is $460K today, and the neighborhood is not all that nice any more.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

27" didn't exist then. 24" was considered the largest that real people could buy, and that was a semi-round picture tube. ~$450 when Dad bought our RCA that year, and that was highly discounted through a membership buying service. According to the inflation calculators, that would be roughly $3400 today.

I still find it weird when I'm watching an old movie or something to see how TINY the screens were on TVs. Whole family sitting around a massive cabinet with a screen smaller than my laptop.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Because they're building homes for companies, not families.

A big part of it is overhead too.
The sitework (putting in the streets, water, sewer, electrical) for a neighborhood is a fixed cost. It's basically the same regardless of the size of the houses. Same with permitting and inspections. It really squeezes margins on building small affordable houses.

 

[MillieDynamite]

My father's mother had Alzheimer's when they took me in. We'd go visit her in the rest home, and invariable, she'd forgotten all about me. This always led to Dad reintroducing me to her as his foster daughter. Nana would, at some point, ask Dad, "Did you know she was a negro before you took her in?" He'd say, "Yes, Mom, don't you think she's beautiful." "Yes," she'd say, lowering her voice, "for a darkie, she's stunning." At some point, she'd ask, "So, is she from your black girlfriend in the 80s? I didn't think you knocked her." "No, Mom, she's not nearly old enough." "I was just curious. I know you think I remember everything, but I'm having some trouble with that these days. I can't remember why you didn't marry Carmela."

He never answers that question. It wasn't his mother's prejudice but Carmela's family that broke them up."

 

[joy_of_cooking]

It wasn't his mother's prejudice but Carmela's family that broke them up.

... Was it his mother that her family objected to?

 

[MillieDynamite]

No, it was that he was white, and they'd have problems with society. They harassed the girl, especially her mother, but not her Grandmother. She liked Pops and wanted them to get married. But the rest of her family were very adamant that it would never last. Prejudice is a two-way street. Pop's mom never said don't marry her. She said there would be problems. I'm not saying NaNa wasn't prejudiced, but she still believed we all make our own choices.

... Was it his mother that her family objected to?