Be bold! But how and when?

[Thefireflies]

Several months back I received a generally positive comment on one of my stories, however it also included genuine constructive criticism that, “This story never surprised – be bold!”

I take comments on their merits and this one has stuck in my mind and I can’t shake it. Even when I’m not writing stories, something I haven’t done in a few months, I’m almost always writing something in my head, and now I’m wondering about how and when to be bold if I were to write them. Do I take the character arcs or plot in a different directions to how things played out in my mind?

What does being even bold mean? After all, being bold can mean many things here at LitE, and is likely to be different across categories and readers. If surprising the reader is being bold, how does one take a story from the obvious path and make it satisfying? For example, in a romance story, would it be bold not to end with a happy ever after or not delivering other expectations people generally like for satisfying reading, and still somehow manage to satisfy? And at what point in the process of story telling should/could you be bold? At the end with a twist or something else?

This makes me think of the balancing act a writer may attempt when writing something entertaining and satisfying to most readers, but not necessarily following the obvious path. I think of two Cormac McCarthy stories: No Country for Old Men and Blood Meridian. I’ve never read No Country for Old Men, however I assume the movie is generally faithful to the events in the novel, and when I first watched that movie, my first reaction to the way it played out was that the ending was unsatisfactory, because the ‘good guys’ died or gave up, and the ‘bad guy’ got away. Later I’ve considered that this is a valid and realistic outcome. But was it any less entertaining? Probably not.

I have read Blood Meridian, in which most events in that story are described in explicit detail, but the finally between the Judge and the Kid came across to me as ambiguous or vague, raising more questions than are answered. Yet, I found this ending to be completely satisfying because of the questions it raised, and I still occasionally think back to that story. As far as I’m concerned, Blood Meridian is an example of bold writing. I’m sure there’s many more.

As authors, what does being bold when writing mean to you? Do you think as hobby writers here we have opportunities to be bolder in our story telling, if only because we don’t have the demands of publishers and profits to think about? Do you try to push boundaries as far as expectations are concerned? Do you feel you've written something bold, where you've maybe pushed boundaries or followed a less traditional path, and still felt you succeeded in your writing aims, and/or entertained?

 

[KeithD]

Yes, be bold. My idea of being bold is not to write by committee. Write what and as you want. Let the interested readers find you as you are yourself.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

The mundane certainly has its place, especially as the mundane is very relatable, and can be effectively used to immerse the reader, but at some point the story is probably going to have to get 'bold' as you say, otherwise you're just telling a mundane story. One must ask himself, why are stories told? The answer to that is because there is something about a story that makes it stand out that makes it worth telling. That something is its boldness. It may be a clever twist in the plot or a carefully woven metaphor, or sometimes just an out-and-out bombastic story, but at some point your story has to stand out in some way to make it worth telling (or even re-telling).

Think of it this way. One could craft a technically well-written immersive descriptive tale about going to the store to buy a loaf of bread, but if there's no growth, no metaphor, no real plot nor even a moral to the story, then what is the point? All we have is a loaf of bread. We can have that every day. The story is not worth telling.

If you've ever read Rushdie, his stories are full of vivid imagery, savage descriptions and magical over the top characters chock full of metaphor and symbolism. He is bold throughout which is dangerous because you can lose the reader's suspension of belief very easily, but he is still a gripping read because of his story telling skill.

If you've ever read Atwood, she can grip the reader even with the mundane, her skill here is quite phenomenal, but at some point in her stories the shit has to hit the fan, so to speak, otherwise it's just a mundane story. Her sense of timing with these bold events and how she reveals them is masterful.

So there are many ways to do it. Write more. Build a zen for it is all that I can say, at least in a nutshell.

 

[lanceGibs]

Yes, be bold. My idea of being bold is not to write by committee. Write what and as you want. Let the interested readers find you as you are yourself.

I endorse the view.
Creativity can not be dictated by public opinion else Symphony, No. 9 would not be known .

 

[Smuttyandfun]

When I decided to write 'The Dare' I wondered if I went a little overboard at the beginning, when the beautiful, shapely young lady in the story is drunk, and coming onto the cop who is carrying her up from the water. Tempted to dial it back, I decided instead, to let go and have fun with it, and it paid off. It came in 2nd place in the Nude Day Contest. If I had of toned it down a little, I don't think it would have done as well.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

Not everyone HAS to be bold. It's fine if you don't want to throw in twists, blend genres, confound expectations, play against formulas. A lot of writers - and readers - just want stories that are straight down the line.

If you do want to be bold, though, you have to make it count. Be purposeful. There's nothing more tedious than writing that does something "shocking" with no rhyme or reason. Think about the why more than the what. How can you get more out of characters or out of a story by throwing in a curveball? Where could you take the reader that you couldn't get to if you were writing a completely conventional story? How does "being bold" make something a richer experience?

 

[Lifestyle66]

Don't be predictable. Don't give away the whole story in the first two-minute theme song (old TV series 'Gilligan's Island').

I started here a year ago posting a series about a couple becoming swingers. Critical input from an editor said I didn't build the characters with their motivations. So, I rewrote adding three prequel chapters showing how they met, married, and provided just enough family background to make their personality quirks plausible.

My latest chapter deviated from the swinger scene by going back to their hometown and re-visiting one of those quirky events of the wife, in what I think evolved (in my mind and opinion) to be a rather good and different erotic scene.

 

[SimonDoom]

I haven't thought of it quite this way, but I suppose I deal with this issue by writing characters do something that's "bold." It all depends on what seems erotic to you. I like to write stories about characters who push erotic boundaries and explore new sexual territory. The conflict between conscience and conscience on the one hand and the irrepressible desire to try something new is what, for me, gives the story its sexual sizzle. So, that's what I write, most of the time. It may or may not be true for others. James Joyce's masterpiece Ulysses is about a day in the life of a few people in the city of Dublin, Ireland. Not much happens. But in that case, the writing style gives the novel its "boldness." There are many approaches that can work.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

First off, I'd say, nobody ever erected a statue in honour of a critic.

I'm not familiar with your work, but I've taken a quick look at your page. (Memo to self - check out TF's tales...) What I see is this:

• You have published 17 stories.
• All but two have won the Red H for a hot (4.5+) score.
• Two of them were contest winners. Two out of 17. Really?)
• Your average score is a laudable 4.74. (I'm jealous.)

That's a pretty enviable track record! But now, when some wingnut whines about your writing not being bold enough or some such heifferdust, despite all that solid achievement under your belt, you're letting them get to you.

As I said, I haven't read your stuff (yet), but I think it's pretty safe to say that you're a pretty good wordsmith.

Trolls are still trolls if they're polite.

 

[DouglasFinney]

First off, I'd say, nobody ever erected a statue in honour of a critic.

Never ever? I beg to disagree: “New statue commemorating Northrop Frye unveiled.”

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Never ever? I beg to disagree: “New statue commemorating Northrop Frye unveiled.”

The exception to the rule, certainly.

 

[SimonDoom]

The exception to the rule, certainly.

As Theodore Roosevelt (by far the most prolific author among US presidents) eloquently put it:

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

I would say this applies--metaphorically, of course--to writers, too.

 

[Thefireflies]

Thanks for the replies and thoughts, there are some excellent responses here. I’ll add something when I get more of a chance to think about it (midnight here in my part of the world and I should be sleeping…).

... when some wingnut whines about your writing not being bold enough or some such heifferdust, despite all that solid achievement under your belt, you're letting them get to you.

Trolls are still trolls if they're polite.

TP, the commenter wasn’t trolling or overly critical, nor did they get to me in any way. However, they did get me thinking (overthinking perhaps) about boldness in writing and how it can be achieved, which I think makes their comment valuable.

One thing I can think straight up is that what one person thinks is bold might not be someone else's idea of boldness. Because of course we can't please everyone (and nor should we!).

 

[KeithD]

First off, I'd say, nobody ever erected a statue in honour of a critic.

Roger Ebert's statue in Chicago.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainmen...e-critic-roger-ebert-to-be-unveiled-1.1790093

 

[8letters]

Several months back I received a generally positive comment on one of my stories, however it also included genuine constructive criticism that, “This story never surprised – be bold!”

I take comments on their merits and this one has stuck in my mind and I can’t shake it. Even when I’m not writing stories, something I haven’t done in a few months, I’m almost always writing something in my head, and now I’m wondering about how and when to be bold if I were to write them. Do I take the character arcs or plot in a different directions to how things played out in my mind?

What does being even bold mean? After all, being bold can mean many things here at LitE, and is likely to be different across categories and readers. If surprising the reader is being bold, how does one take a story from the obvious path and make it satisfying? For example, in a romance story, would it be bold not to end with a happy ever after or not delivering other expectations people generally like for satisfying reading, and still somehow manage to satisfy? And at what point in the process of story telling should/could you be bold? At the end with a twist or something else?

This makes me think of the balancing act a writer may attempt when writing something entertaining and satisfying to most readers, but not necessarily following the obvious path. I think of two Cormac McCarthy stories: No Country for Old Men and Blood Meridian. I’ve never read No Country for Old Men, however I assume the movie is generally faithful to the events in the novel, and when I first watched that movie, my first reaction to the way it played out was that the ending was unsatisfactory, because the ‘good guys’ died or gave up, and the ‘bad guy’ got away. Later I’ve considered that this is a valid and realistic outcome. But was it any less entertaining? Probably not.

I have read Blood Meridian, in which most events in that story are described in explicit detail, but the finally between the Judge and the Kid came across to me as ambiguous or vague, raising more questions than are answered. Yet, I found this ending to be completely satisfying because of the questions it raised, and I still occasionally think back to that story. As far as I’m concerned, Blood Meridian is an example of bold writing. I’m sure there’s many more.

As authors, what does being bold when writing mean to you? Do you think as hobby writers here we have opportunities to be bolder in our story telling, if only because we don’t have the demands of publishers and profits to think about? Do you try to push boundaries as far as expectations are concerned? Do you feel you've written something bold, where you've maybe pushed boundaries or followed a less traditional path, and still felt you succeeded in your writing aims, and/or entertained?

My thoughts on being bold:
Write the story that your readers want to read but hasn't been written
I've heard that at least one author on this forum writes essentially the same story over and over again. I try to write something different each time, but some of my stories are definitely more different than others. My highest rated I/T story starts out as a straight romance and then he finds out their half-siblings but has to keep that a secret from her. I hadn't read an I/T story like that before and haven't since.

Write a sex scene that your readers haven't read before
Looking at my most recent stories, one story had a sex scene in a nursery and another in a kitchen, the next story had a sex scene in a large hot tube, the next story had lots of wild group foreplay, and my current story has a couple of tittie-fucks.

Edit: I had trouble posting my post and these got accidentally cut out
Discuss an issue that's worth discussing
Make your story about more than getting tab A into slot B. Discuss an issue that's worth discussing. In my last story, I discussed flirting and groping. In the story before that, I discussed the effects of infidelity. I've discussed domestic abuse.

Take your readers someplace interesting
I've taken my readers on a cruise, to DisneyWorld and through Europe. I've taken them to an informal flirting workshop. In the story, I'm currently working on, I have them watch a bikini contest. In a story I'm putting words down for, I have them watch a mom and three sisters dressed up as the Swedish Bikini Team sing ABBA songs at karaoke night.

 

[KeithD]

I've heard that at least one author on this forum writes essentially the same story over and over again.

That sounds like a pretty standard jab that one user would say about another's stories just to be nasty. One wonders if the jabber read all of the other user's stories because he/she loves reading the same thing over and over again or if they are just trolling and most likely haven't read any of the other user's stories at all.

And, yes, I've had a board regular post that about my stories.

 

[tenyari]

Someone telling you to 'be bold' could mean so many things...

I'd be thinking they want me to step out of my comfort zone with the sub-genre in question. But they might also mean some character could have done something extreme or wild but didn't. Or there could have been a plot twist or hook that was not fully explored. Maybe the erotic scenes were too muted - and read as if 'softcore or R-rated rather than hardcore'.

It's too vague of a comment to really take seriously unless there's somewhere obvious in your story where you 'held back' on something. And sometimes that 'holding back' was purposeful so the advice could even just be wrong.

 

[Lydra]

Tough question. The first thing that popped into my mind was a quote from a poker playing friend of mine. "It's always correct to take a risk, except for when you lose."

As others have said, it could mean many things. I think, to me, being bold in the world of writing is doing something that will probably annoy a decent amount of your readers, but that you know will make the story better. Maybe that's subverting some trope and not giving some readers what they want, maybe it's allowing your characters to be less than heroic, etc. It doesn't even have to be in the text of the story. Lots of authors feel pressured to pump out new chapters as fast as they can, and the "bold" move might be taking more time. EarlyMorningLight put it well above here, there's got to be some reason you're doing it. Some payoff that makes the story better, in the end.

 

[Voboy]

Do you like your own work, OP? Would you want to read it? Would you give it five stars?

Yes?

Then it's bold enough. You're the writer. You get to define what "bold" means for you, as I do for me. Write what you please. Trying to be someone you're not isn't going to work. If that commenter wants something bolder, there's nothing stopping him/her from digging out a fucking keyboard and writing as boldly as they please.

You be you.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The exception to the rule, certainly.

As well as Ebert's, Ruskin has several. And there's at least one to Sartre, though he was also well known as a writer so maybe that doesn't count.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

As well as Ebert's, Ruskin has several. And there's at least one to Sartre, though he was also well known as a writer so maybe that doesn't count.

Lester Bangs and Pauline Kael deserve statues.

 

[SimonDoom]

As well as Ebert's, Ruskin has several. And there's at least one to Sartre, though he was also well known as a writer so maybe that doesn't count.

I don't think either Sartre or Ruskin count as critics. They were critics, but they were much more than that. Sartre was a philosopher/author and Ruskin was a man of letters/polymath.

I look forward to when the first statue of a Literotica author is erected. If it's you it will be a 3D version of that goofy cartoon panel you chose for your avatar. if it's me it will be my creepy eyeball. Somehow, I don't think it's going to happen.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Several months back I received a generally positive comment on one of my stories, however it also included genuine constructive criticism that, “This story never surprised – be bold!”

Advice isn't one-size-fits-all. Each of us writes for our own reasons, and what the reader wants won't always fit the needs of the author (or the wants of any other reader!)

That particular advice happens to fit me though, so I can talk about how it works for me.

For me, "be bold" means not to settle for easy kudos. Don't tell the same story twice. Think of a rule to break, a thing that I'd expect to piss off my readers, and then challenge myself to make it work. If I look back at the things I've posted here, I can identify something new in each story that required me to stretch myself. For the first one, it was mostly just "finish a novel-length story", but after that I had to find some new challenges.

What does being even bold mean? After all, being bold can mean many things here at LitE, and is likely to be different across categories and readers. If surprising the reader is being bold, how does one take a story from the obvious path and make it satisfying? For example, in a romance story, would it be bold not to end with a happy ever after or not delivering other expectations people generally like for satisfying reading, and still somehow manage to satisfy?

IMHO, yes, and that example is something I tackled in a couple of my recent stories. My first story here follows fairly standard romance lines, so for later ones I've tried to vary that.

In "Anjali's Red Scarf" I started with a setup that could easily have gone into HEA romance, and then turned it into a story about what happens when two people don't want the same thing out of their relationship (among other things). When I wrote it, I'd recently broken up with a long-term partner and we were working through the difficult transition back to "good friends", accepting the relationship for what it was instead of what it wanted to be.

From the feedback I got, most of the readers enjoyed the ride even if it didn't go where they were expecting it to go. One though was very upset that it didn't go the expected HEA route, and let me know about it at some length. Can't win 'em all.

"Loss Function" is a part-sci-fi romance where the love interest gets long covid, then slowly dies of dementia. My challenge to myself was to tell that story and make it bittersweet rather than miserable, and to sell it to readers in Romance who don't know me. (I'd written romances before but they'd been posted to Lesbian and to SF/F, not Romance.)

I suspect I could have gotten higher ratings from writing Stringed Instrument over again, but I wanted to push myself. There are rough patches in Red Scarf and Loss Function, and in my perfectionist moments I fret about those, but I remind myself that if the process isn't messy I'm probably not taking enough chances.

 

[Thefireflies]

Original poster here. I want to point out my initial post wasn’t about me being upset about a comment on my story. Perhaps I should have made that clearer, but at no stage have I let this comment get to me, nor did I think it was negative or trolling. Indeed, the entire comment was considered and thought provoking, making me to think a lot about what being bold when writing might mean. I posted here to generate discussion on what people think being bold when writing is, and when to apply boldness, which might also be the harder part of the equation.

There have been some excellent responses which have given me food for thought, so to speak. I already generally subscribe to the ‘write what you want/like’ philosophy. We’re not obligated to anyone here and no one is going to please everyone anyway. However, I think on some level people want their work to be enjoyed or at least understood.

I recall a book I recently read and greatly enjoyed, When We Were Vikings, about a young woman with a disability who strives for autonomy and independence, and when I finished I read reviews to see what other readers thought. Most were positive but some reviews were critical of certain choices the author made in regards to the treatment of the main character. I didn’t necessarily agree with those reviews, but also saw where they were coming from. They could be considered equally valid or nit-picking, depending on the audience.

Here at LitE I learnt early on when I published my second story that some readers don’t like a non-happily ever after ending. The lovers in that story had already broken up and were not getting back together. Some responses to that story suggested people were outraged these two ‘idiots’ weren’t going to see the stupidity of their ways and get back together. I think many people want happily ever after stories, but it didn’t stop me writing another non-HEA story (and on that note, in the past 24 hours I received a very positive comment for that particular non-HEA story which hadn't seen much love since it was published in 2019).

I can think of many ways to be bold, but one writer or reader’s idea of boldness might be another’s vanilla. Kind of like sex really... I like the idea of a twist, though I think it’s hard to execute well. Same with twists in story writing Actually, I don’t think I’ve tried a plot twist, so maybe there’s a personal challenge.

Loss Function" is a part-sci-fi romance where the love interest gets long covid, then slowly dies of dementia. My challenge to myself was to tell that story and make it bittersweet rather than miserable, and to sell it to readers in Romance who don't know me.

Bramble, I enjoyed Loss Function (commented on and favourited even!) and have actually thought a little more about your story in the past few days with all the recent discussion in the media about sentience in artificial intelligence. Could we one day create a mirror of our brains in a computer, and if so, would it be us or simply an AI mimicking us? But what if it develops independent thoughts similar to, but not the same as the original person? Cool concepts with so many possibilities.

 

[KeithD]

The primary point for me is that you if are turned on by what you put in your story there will be others who will be too--and yet others who won't and might tell you so. To prevent heartburn, I think it's best to concentrate on the readers who appreciate you for what you write and be content with that readership.