Authorial Endorsement -- what do you think?

[SimonDoom]

In a recent review posted on a story feedback thread, Awkward MD brought up the subject of "authorial endorsement" as a basis for critiquing the story. In the review, there was a link to an online article that discusses this theory at length.

Review link: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1516126

Article link: https://mythcreants.com/blog/authorial-endorsement-101/

The theory, in a nutshell (please read the article to get a fuller explanation of it), is the idea that a story "supports a specific action or message." Sometimes it's clear, as in the case of the Dr. Seuss book The Lorax, that the story endorses a pro-environment message. Other times, authorial endorsement is not so clear. A story may appear to endorse a certain message even if that's not the author's intent. This may be problematic where the story depicts actions or behavior that in the real world are known to be harmful but in the story are presented as having no adverse background or consequences. The theory is that the author, knowingly or unknowingly, may be endorsing bad behavior.

Erotica touches on many potentially transgressive topics: nonconsensual sex, "deviant" sex, incest, sex with minors, STDs, sex trafficking, etc. Anybody who's read any substantial number of Literotica stories knows that erotic subjects often are presented in non-realistic ways, which gloss over or ignore potential real-world consequences.

My question for authors: To what extent do you believe that the concept of authorial endorsement is a legitimate or useful way to critique erotic stories? More specifically:

1. To what extent should a Literotica author be mindful of how the story might be interpreted, or of how it might influence people? Is it a realistic concern? Should you be concerned that because you write an erotic story about rape you make it more likely that rape will happen in the real world?

2. Are there things an author can do in a story to remove it from this type of scrutiny? To flag to the reader that "This is fantasy and you should not see it as reality?" Or is there nothing the author can do? Or does the author have no obligation to do that?

3. Is an author wrong to depict people doing bad things and getting away with it?

4. Is it wrong for an author to depict a certain type of behavior -- e.g., incest -- in a positive light even if in most cases in the real world that behavior is not positive?

My view, to get this discussion started: I'm a skeptic, though not necessarily an absolute disbeliever, in this theory, and in this approach to analyzing and evaluating fiction, including erotic fiction. I have two reasons.

One, I'm skeptical of the grounds for believing that erotic fiction, especially erotic fiction published at Literotica, can have adverse consequences. I believe words are powerful and have consequences, but I also believe their impact is complex, multi-faceted, sometimes conflicting, and often almost impossible to ascertain with any degree of reliability. I think that's true of creative expression in general, of all kinds. Porn critics have been trying for years to prove that it's socially harmful, and, from what I've seen, their case is weak. I think the case is even weaker when it comes to the written word. Same things with those who want to ban or regulate violent films, or violent video games.

Two, even if someone were to demonstrate that there is some small risk that some readers might react adversely in response to a Literotica story with a bad message, I think there is enormous social and artistic value to granting the right to fiction to be a free-wheeling fantasy space where people can pretty much write whatever they want, without regulation or consequence. I think an author should be free to say, "Yes, I know that in the real world incest isn't really like this, but in MY world of fiction it is, and that's good enough." The world is much better off, IMO, for the publication of Lolita, even though it is about the statutory rape of a young girl by an older man. It's possible that somebody, somewhere, was inspired to commit a crime because of that novel. But I still think the world is better off because it was written.

Thoughts?

 

[BiscuitHammer]

At the end of the day, the 'harm' done, if you will, is based on context and degrees. Pardon me for using my stories as an example, but...

The central theme of my story cycle, the Alexaverse, is the romance between an aunt and her nephew. Now the blow is softened insofar as they're only a year apart in age, but beyond that, several western nations have legalized avunculate marriage for some years now. Biblical proscription has no leg to stand on, and the studies about the genetic risks seem to have proven that those are comparatively minimal if both parties have no congenital afflictions.

Social stigma might very well still be a thing, but that's true for many gay people still, despite gay marriage being legal in Canada for some decades. Prejudice can hold strong.

Other 'sins' and deviancy seen in erotic stories are often questions of degrees. I have a war story where brutal rape, murder, and wholesale slaughter are quite common. But I never portray those things in a desirable light.

It's like dealing with copycat serial killers. Should an author be held accountable for what a serial killer does if they imitate something they'd read? I'm of the belief that serial killer will do their thing anyway, finding some other source of inspiration. I suppose an author could be a total bastard and essentially write a serial killer's handbook with the express intent, but publishing houses and online publishers can always choose to draw a line.

Nobody is gathering a strong force and pillaging any villages, raping and looting, because they saw it in my Mongol war story. Getting their wives and girlfriends to fight amongst each other for power is only somewhat more likely.

Things I DO endorse in my works, quite actively: the ridicule of incels, and the elimination of the Alt-Right. I make no bones about my extreme distaste and intolerance for that subhuman nonsense. Hopefully that can't be mistaken. I approve these messages.

As society changes, what constitutes a 'dangerous idea' changes. So what an author endorses is not always quite so radical or destructive as it might have seemed once, even a generation ago.

 

[RejectReality]

Anybody who believes this should be campaigning to have the remaining Beatles locked up because of Charles Manson.

Crazy and evil people are going to do what they're going to do. They latch onto things because their synapses aren't firing correctly — not the other way around.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

Anybody who believes this should be campaigning to have the remaining Beatles locked up because of Charles Manson.

Crazy and evil people are going to do what they're going to do. They latch onto things because their synapses aren't firing correctly — not the other way around.

Brava!

 

[NotWise]

I'll reserve judgement about the whole idea. I'm skeptical.

The article is excellent and well thought-out. One thing I'd like to point out is that the problem with authorial endorsement (stated in the section headed "What Effect Does Endorsement Have") isn't really an ethical problem, but a problem with how the audience will receive the story.

Your questions 3 and 4 address the ethical question, which I think goes beyond the intent of the article. As to questions 1 and 2, I think that the author should use authorial endorsement with intent; it should be used to shape the story to the target audience.

As such, I think authorial endorsement is a valid basis for story critique. I don't think it's a valid basis for questioning an author's ethics. Authorial endorsement may have nothing at all to do with the author's ethics.

 

[HeyAll]

I view erotica the same as movies and other books. Yes, it came promote bad behavior, but it's assumed that the author doesn't encourage it and it should be assumed that the reader knows the difference.

Having said that, I do try to incorporate messages sometimes. I think putting small messages is fun and makes the story more relevant in a small way.

For instance, I've done a few "job interview" erotica themed stories and I try to incorporate small pieces of advice.

On the flipside, I've done stories where the lead character is a bad woman in the mafia. That's purely entertainment. I try to make it so over-the-top that it doesn't encourage or endorse bad behavior.

Also, lately I've been leaving notes to support your local restaurants and bookstores. However small that gesture is, I do hope it helps.

 

[Brutal_One]

I don’t think it would apply to many Lit writers. But there are cases where a writers detailed descriptions have been adopted and enacted for real.

I think most of us would expect readers to get excited or turned on but having it in the back of your mind that what you might write has the wrong influence I think is not something a typical writer would worry about unless of course it was a positive message in which case presumably you take more care in ensuring that positive message comes across.

Brutal One

 

[AwkwardMD]

Endorsement does not equal responsibility. At best, an endorsed concept in a story could be thought of as nudging the collective unconcious toward or away from a certain theme/position/mindset, and the nudge is proportionate with the audience size. 10k readers reading my BBC-loving MILF opus probably isn't going to make the world any statistically measurable amount more racist, but it definitely isn't going to make it less racist.

 

[KeithD]

I try to keep the moralizing out of my erotica--especially current-time political correctness. I include current scenarios in my writing but I depict them as they seem to be--leaving out the "should be" fairy dust. My characters tend to be "badder" than I'd ever be. When I'm reading (which, with erotica, is rarely) and the author gets political/social preachy, I'm gone.

To me, erotica is about creating sexual arousal. That's it.

And, in terms of assessing what others have written, I look for evidence that they've managed what they seemed to be trying to convey within their own perspective. I don't set it against my own political/social views and grade it on me rather than them. If a story is far off my own beam, I put it down--I don't, though, then write a review that reflects my own political/social views and promotes my own standards rather than what the author was trying to do. When I encounter a reviewer who is intrusive of their own political/social views, I just walk away from them too.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Interesting article, but anyone who believes Alan Moore gives authorial endorsement to Ozymandias needs to go back and do a reread.

I believe an author's obligation is to their muse, not to imposed social standards. I think it is entirely possible to write very good stories that project very bad messages. In fact, I think they may be more common than not. The question is, can you judge them as stories while overlooking their moral shortcomings? Well, given that Gone With The Wind remains tremendously popular with both audiences and critics, I'd say the consensus opinion is yes, we can.

Standards change. Much that was considered unacceptable a century ago is acceptable now. Much that we find acceptable in our culture is anathema in others, and vice versa.

Judging a work of fiction based on how a reader or viewer might misinterpret it is untenable. Is it Martin Scorsese's fault that John Hinckley shot Reagan? Is JD Salinger responsible for John Lennon's death? Pointing a finger at an author because you fear their work might inspire bad behavior is to allow the worst readers to set the standard for judgment.

 

[lovecraft68]

We're writing FICTION made up stories with made up people that can deal with real situations, but in a fictional story.

The author has no responsibility whatsoever if a reader decides to act on something they read, no more than a movie or music can be blamed for bad behaviorr.

The people who think so are the type who think they know what's right for everyone and behind every puritan level witch hunt against everything from religion to politics to books and movies.

Holding creators responsible for assholes and bad behavior is closed minded, judgmental and the gateway to censorship.

From my day-older younger people will have different examples-D&D was evil. Tipper Gore and other dingbats wanted to censor certain types of music, the Matrix caused Columbine(There's another movie too, and it escapes me at the time that was also blamed)

Look at porn, how long has it been blamed for sex crimes and deviant behavior? The reality is its been proven that watching/reading certain extreme acts can prevent those crimes, they live out the fantasy and get some catharsis, also tells them they're not 'sick' because hey, look at all the movies and stories dedicated to that material...its cool, as long as its just make believe.

Here's another example....Manson, over glorified mental and physical midget he was- went to jail because he told a group of even dumber mush brained cowards to go kill someone(then showed up to see)

But if he were to write a fictional serial killer/cult novel where an equally scummy cult leader told cowards to kill someone and someone decided to make it 'real' he has no accountability

That word, accountability is what it comes down to. Losers can't possibly be responsible for their own behavior, so when they rape someone or kill someone or do something wrong, it must have been a book or movie or a song because they can't possibly be responsible for themselves.

In closing, this thread isn't pure, there's an agenda which will be made clear by certain posters.

But its still a good topic, hell, at least its not about scores and H's and votes.

 

[lovecraft68]

I try to keep the moralizing out of my erotica--especially current-time political correctness. I include current scenarios in my writing but I depict them as they seem to be--leaving out the "should be" fairy dust. My characters tend to be "badder" than I'd ever be. When I'm reading (which, with erotica, is rarely) and the author gets political/social preachy, I'm gone.

To me, erotica is about creating sexual arousal. That's it.

And, in terms of assessing what others have written, I look for evidence that they've managed what they seemed to be trying to convey within their own perspective. I don't set it against my own political/social views and grade it on me rather than them. If a story is far off my own beam, I put it down--I don't, though, then write a review that reflects my own political/social views and promotes my own standards rather than what the author was trying to do. When I encounter a reviewer who is intrusive of their own political/social views, I just walk away from them too.

Well, I guess this in another sign of the insanity of 20/20 because I am going to say that I agree with everything stated here, especially what I put in bold.

This is the agenda I mentioned-I posted before I saw this-and this calls it/them out well.

I agree about PC not being needed to be upheld in fiction, again we're talking censorship. I agree that my characters are "badder' than me in some cases, the d-bags act like d-bags and say and do things I never have or would...that's called writing a story, assholes will asshole and they are not PC...plus it makes it better when they meet their demise.

But that's grown up writing, and I'm not sure everyone here can handle being a gown up.

 

[holliday1960]

I sorta have to agree with the others. The idea certainly provokes thought, but I don't think many will stick with the initial interest level. Mainly because if you give it more than two seconds of consideration, it blows apart. Most people aren't going to act on an impulsive idea without considering the consequences or responding to their own innate system of values. Sure, a few would, will, do... I think people like Ted Bundy might... or maybe even Amy Fisher? But just because it may have provoked an act once, is it a proven theory? Depends on the whole theory. It isn't as simple as 1+1=2. You have to factor in the variables, and anytime human nature or abstract human behavior is one of those variables... Lots of luck in proving the theory.

Should an author feel responsible when someone reenacts one of their scenarios? I suppose some will. But most won't. It's like the person on a ledge preparing to jump... the crowd below is yelling at them. Some saying 'JUMP!', others shouting 'DON'T jump'... how do we know WHOSE voice they heard, or if they listened to anyone at all? Perhaps they simply panicked and slipped.

I've written about car wrecks... terrible crashes in which people were killed. If I wrote that the driver was texting and drinking while driving, that doesn't mean I encourage or discourage others to follow suit. I'm simply reporting what I witnessed... even if I witnessed it in a dream, or in reality... I didn't cause it to happen. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I don't see how a writer is culpable.

 

[KeithD]

I think the thread invites discussion of a serious issue in which I do, yes, see an agenda by some--and put in my two cents-worth on that. I see a trend toward visitations to the discussion board by self-proclaimed morality police. But I don't think the OP was pushing the (or an) agenda--just framing an existing question.

(And if LC wasn't so intent on his own personal agendas, he'd probably see that we agreed on a lot of issues here.)

 

[RejectReality]

I'll back away if someone is beating me over the head with some soapbox grandstanding in a story. If I can tell it's going to be relevant to the story before I roll my eyes and back away, my tolerance level goes up. So long as I continue to see a building relevancy with a payoff, I'm good.

My tolerance level is also higher for themed events, such as the old Earth Day contest. That lends itself to some environmental preaching, so it gets a pass up to a certain point.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I'll back away if someone is beating me over the head with some soapbox grandstanding in a story. If I can tell it's going to be relevant to the story before I roll my eyes and back away, my tolerance level goes up. So long as I continue to see a building relevancy with a payoff, I'm good.

My tolerance level is also higher for themed events, such as the old Earth Day contest. That lends itself to some environmental preaching, so it gets a pass up to a certain point.

If a story is beating you over the head with its message, it's the story thats bad, not necessarily the message.

 

[KeithD]

If a story is beating you over the head with its message, it's the story thats bad, not necessarily the message.

True, but I don't go to erotica stories to get my political or social standards messaging. I go there for sexual arousal--for balance in life.

 

[lovecraft68]

If a story is beating you over the head with its message, it's the story thats bad, not necessarily the message.

Good point and true in real life not just a story.

There is no better way to ruin a message of a cause then beat it into the heads of people who don't have that particular issue and get tired of being preached to

Telling you XYZ is one thing,

Telling you XYZ and followed by and if you don't agree with XYZ then you're some kind of ....fill in the blank depending on the cause.

A message can be delivered in both real life and book or movie subtly where its there, but not sticking out like a speedbump, but it seems that's a lost are and everything has to be screamed out as if people can't understand otherwise.

The trend of 'sensitivity' readers being a thing is way too much for me. Just call it censorship and be done with it.

 

[RejectReality]

If a story is beating you over the head with its message, it's the story thats bad, not necessarily the message.

Everyone's perception of what's overblown messaging depends upon their own viewpoint. The more you're in agreement with it, the less intrusive it seems.

I'm more or less referring to characters who are over the top to me, but mellow due to events in the story and become less annoying by the time the story concludes. LOL

 

[ElectricBlue]

It sort of fits in with my notion of "erotica with a social conscience" in that I think words do matter and can have an affect on people. And if you accept the notion (and the praise) that your words can affect someone positively (and judging by comments received, they do), then the corollary exists that your words might affect someone negatively. Whether an author is then responsible for some crazy person's actions doesn't automatically follow, but it doesn't hurt to be mindful of what you write about. Subtlety, though, is better than a soapbox.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'll back away if someone is beating me over the head with some soapbox grandstanding in a story. .

But let's be clear: the issue raised by AwkwardMD's critique and in the article linked to doesn't usually arise in this situation. This is fairly uncommon at Literotica. It arises when the author presents a situation differently from the way that situation typically presents itself in real life, or where in real life there is a bad consequence and it's understood to be bad, but where in the story it isn't. In other words, it's where the author UNDERPLAYS the significance of the moral issue, not overplays it.

I think most people IN THEORY agree with me. But I've seen an awful lot of commentary in these threads that, when raised in specific circumstances, creates a different response. For example:

-- There is a concurrent thread on the question of why the Site allows stories about rape where the victim enjoys it. This doesn't seem realistic, and it seems to send a bad message. Some want to ban these stories.

-- Some want to ban incest stories, because on LIterotica incest is usually presented as fun and consensual when in real life it's not and often involves abuse of children.

-- AwkwardMD raised a critique of the story she reviewed in part on the ground that the story presented prostitution involving young Ukrainian women and older men in a way that ignored the reality that in the real world such prostitution often involves sex trafficking.

-- Some people are uncomfortable with interracial stories that play on stereotypes about black men, on the ground that they reinforce racist stereotypes.

-- Some have expressed concern that stories treat transgender identity as something that is correctable, on the ground that it reinforces a potentially harmful belief.

To my way of thinking, these things are all equally valid or invalid. I'm inclined to say: just write your story and indulge your fantasy if that is what you want to do. But, while many seem to agree with this concept in theory, they don't when it comes to certain issues that hit their buttons.

I'm not sure there is a one-size-fits-all answer to the issue, but I think it's worth raising to challenge the assumptions we make about what's permissible erotica and what isn't.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm not sure there is a one-size-fits-all answer to the issue, but I think it's worth raising to challenge the assumptions we make about what's permissible erotica and what isn't.

Maybe "permissible" is the wrong word, because that implies an arbiter.

But I do think that writers, putting their words out there to be read, should ponder what they write, and why they write it, from time to time. Because if we didn't think words mattered, we wouldn't write them.

 

[RejectReality]

How about all the stories about meeting people in bars and having one night stands? All those stories with no condoms? Are those not serious considerations out in the real world that can have horrible consequences?

Isn't it downplaying the danger if you don't mention someone putting on or taking off their seatbelt? Bicyclist not demonstrated to be wearing a helmet?

It's moral outrage, plain and simple. If it's something that offends your sensibilities, it's a problem. If not, you don't even notice it. If you read anything where someone covered all the bases of actions that could have serious, real world consequences, I bet you'd never make it halfway down page 1.

But let's be clear: the issue raised by AwkwardMD's critique and in the article linked to doesn't usually arise in this situation. This is fairly uncommon at Literotica. It arises when the author presents a situation differently from the way that situation typically presents itself in real life, or where in real life there is a bad consequence and it's understood to be bad, but where in the story it isn't. In other words, it's where the author UNDERPLAYS the significance of the moral issue, not overplays it.

I think most people IN THEORY agree with me. But I've seen an awful lot of commentary in these threads that, when raised in specific circumstances, creates a different response. For example:

-- There is a concurrent thread on the question of why the Site allows stories about rape where the victim enjoys it. This doesn't seem realistic, and it seems to send a bad message. Some want to ban these stories.

-- Some want to ban incest stories, because on LIterotica incest is usually presented as fun and consensual when in real life it's not and often involves abuse of children.

-- AwkwardMD raised a critique of the story she reviewed in part on the ground that the story presented prostitution involving young Ukrainian women and older men in a way that ignored the reality that in the real world such prostitution often involves sex trafficking.

-- Some people are uncomfortable with interracial stories that play on stereotypes about black men, on the ground that they reinforce racist stereotypes.

-- Some have expressed concern that stories treat transgender identity as something that is correctable, on the ground that it reinforces a potentially harmful belief.

To my way of thinking, these things are all equally valid or invalid. I'm inclined to say: just write your story and indulge your fantasy if that is what you want to do. But, while many seem to agree with this concept in theory, they don't when it comes to certain issues that hit their buttons.

I'm not sure there is a one-size-fits-all answer to the issue, but I think it's worth raising to challenge the assumptions we make about what's permissible erotica and what isn't.

 

[MelissaBaby]

But let's be clear: the issue raised by AwkwardMD's critique and in the article linked to doesn't usually arise in this situation. This is fairly uncommon at Literotica. It arises when the author presents a situation differently from the way that situation typically presents itself in real life, or where in real life there is a bad consequence and it's understood to be bad, but where in the story it isn't. In other words, it's where the author UNDERPLAYS the significance of the moral issue, not overplays it.

I think most people IN THEORY agree with me. But I've seen an awful lot of commentary in these threads that, when raised in specific circumstances, creates a different response. For example:

-- There is a concurrent thread on the question of why the Site allows stories about rape where the victim enjoys it. This doesn't seem realistic, and it seems to send a bad message. Some want to ban these stories.

-- Some want to ban incest stories, because on LIterotica incest is usually presented as fun and consensual when in real life it's not and often involves abuse of children.

-- AwkwardMD raised a critique of the story she reviewed in part on the ground that the story presented prostitution involving young Ukrainian women and older men in a way that ignored the reality that in the real world such prostitution often involves sex trafficking.

-- Some people are uncomfortable with interracial stories that play on stereotypes about black men, on the ground that they reinforce racist stereotypes.

-- Some have expressed concern that stories treat transgender identity as something that is correctable, on the ground that it reinforces a potentially harmful belief.

To my way of thinking, these things are all equally valid or invalid. I'm inclined to say: just write your story and indulge your fantasy if that is what you want to do. But, while many seem to agree with this concept in theory, they don't when it comes to certain issues that hit their buttons.

I'm not sure there is a one-size-fits-all answer to the issue, but I think it's worth raising to challenge the assumptions we make about what's permissible erotica and what isn't.

I recently saw a thread on Twitter from someone who said they had left Lit and taken their stories down because the site allowed some of the items you've listed above.

If people have issues, that option is there.

 

[AlinaX]

- There is a concurrent thread on the question of why the Site allows stories about rape where the victim enjoys it. This doesn't seem realistic, and it seems to send a bad message. Some want to ban these stories.

I think a lot of people have fantasies of non-consensual sex, and very often as the victim. To be taken against one's will and therefore not be responsible for the things one is forced to do... For me, this is why it's important not to allow stories that pursue non-con without enjoyment for the victim. Erotic stories provide a safe space to explore these fantasies.

I do think it's important to acknowledge that non-con is extremely destructive in real life.

A lot of mind control stories effectively glorify non-consensual sex by enforcing consent, and play on the eroticism of power and control over people. But these are part of a large volume of stories that have unreal elements in them. Raped: By aliens - okay! By tentacles - okay! By machines - okay!

Not okay in real life, but they're clearly not real life.

But a story about teaching your ex-wife a lesson for dumping your sorry ass?

- Some want to ban incest stories, because on LIterotica incest is usually presented as fun and consensual when in real life it's not and often involves abuse of children.

I suspect for most readers incest is very much in the realm of the unreal. I don't know.

- AwkwardMD raised a critique of the story she reviewed in part on the ground that the story presented prostitution involving young Ukrainian women and older men in a way that ignored the reality that in the real world such prostitution often involves sex trafficking.

Yeah. I couldn't read past that.

- Some people are uncomfortable with interracial stories that play on stereotypes about black men, on the ground that they reinforce racist stereotypes.

Hmm. I'm sure there are excellent stories that draw on cultural differences, but that category just holds up a huge "Problematic!" sign post.

- Some have expressed concern that stories treat transgender identity as something that is correctable, on the ground that it reinforces a potentially harmful belief.

I haven't really seen that here. I think there's a whole grey area of non-binary identities and gender non-conformity, and that many people have never really stopped to consider their gender. A standard trope on here is the cis male who learns to enjoy being a sissy, often with female pronouns, and may or may not think of themselves as women. If I have a problem with it, it's that the transformation is too easy, and in real life it would be more traumatic. Revelatory.

As someone who writes a lot of futanari stuff... I consider futanari to be fantastical and distinct from trans women, but I get that there's a clumsy, fetishistic spectrum of 'shemales' and 'dickgirls' that connects the two.

Ultimately, the important thing, imo, is to treat characters and their identities with respect.