Are bullet point character descriptions bad, and if so, why?

[IsabellaEmily]

Hi, beginner writer here. Several of the guides in the Writer's Resources mention that it's bad to list character descriptors "like a police report," which I agree with if it's done inside the story. What about if you list the characters and basic info about them bullet point style before the story begins, like below:

Characters:
Greg - Age: 27, Height: 5'11'', Weight: 170, Hair Color: Brown, Eye Color: Brown, Occupation: Electrician, Hobbies: Golf, Baking
Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc.

Is this bad, if so, why? I know it's better to show vs tell, but doing this allows you to provide details that otherwise would be clunky to include in the body of the story. If I'm writing a story about Greg and Milly meeting in a grocery store and they end up banging in Milly's Jeep in the parking lot, there isn't really any room in the story to mention their occupations or hobbies or hometowns without it seeming shoe-horned in, though the reader still might appreciate knowing. I think writing character descriptions in 1st person POV is especially hard, since the narration can only include things that character would realistically be thinking in the given scenario. Let me know if I'm wrong, but doing the descriptions before the story just seems like a good way of providing info without clunking up the story.

I will sometimes do bullet point character descriptions at the start of follow up chapters in case someone didn't read the previous parts....sort of a way to get them caught up. Emily - 27, Bob - 72, etc. Especially if the story focuses on a 'first' experience I don't want anyone thinking they're getting into something underage (even though they should know Lit wouldn't publish it if it was).

But I figure that 'defining' the character is too much. Let the reader go back and read the previous chapter(s) if they want to do that.

 

[Canteloupe]

I guess I should also ask this: maybe there is a difference between writing a proper story that contains erotica vs. pornography in written form? A lot of you are asking "Why should the reader want to know information that isn't pertinent to the story?" Well, for the same reason that porn sites have bio pages for their actors, and Playboy used to tell you the hometown and college degree of the centerfold model. End users like to know a little more about the people they're wanking to.

 

[KeithD]

In a blunt-delivery noir-type detective story, such a listing might be OK. Usually not, though. But also, "never" doesn't apply. It's all dependent on the approach that particular story is taking.

 

[Bamagan]

I guess I should also ask this: maybe there is a difference between writing a proper story that contains erotica vs. pornography in written form? A lot of you are asking "Why should the reader want to know information that isn't pertinent to the story?" Well, for the same reason that porn sites have bio pages for their actors, and Playboy used to tell you the hometown and college degree of the centerfold model. End users like to know a little more about the people they're wanking to.

In both of those examples, though, the interested party is already viewing the principal content of interest, and if they want to know more, sometimes it's available. Playboy didn't put the bio on the cover, and the pornstar bios don't scroll across the screen before the action. Having that information available for your story as an accessory or post-script is not a problem, but if you're only doing it to spare yourself the bother of writing it in the actual story, you're denying yourself the opportunity to immerse your readers in the world of the characters. If you're determined to do it, no one will stop you, but you might not find a charitable audience.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Hi, beginner writer here. Several of the guides in the Writer's Resources mention that it's bad to list character descriptors "like a police report," which I agree with if it's done inside the story. What about if you list the characters and basic info about them bullet point style before the story begins, like below:

Characters:
Greg - Age: 27, Height: 5'11'', Weight: 170, Hair Color: Brown, Eye Color: Brown, Occupation: Electrician, Hobbies: Golf, Baking
Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc.

I would nope out of this before I got to Milly, probably before I got to Greg's hair colour.

There are half a million stories on Literotica, and the quality is...variable. If I'm checking out a story by an author I don't know, they only have a few paragraphs to persuade me that it's worth reading further. Otherwise I'm probably clicking out of that story and moving on to the next one. This doesn't mean you need to open with an exploding helicopter but the opening needs to at least suggest that there's something in here that might be worth my while.

None of the information you give me about Greg and Milly in these two sentences is pointing me towards an answer to the question "why do I care what happens to them?" I don't hate electricians or pharmacists but I don't particularly eroticise them either. I do love board games, but something tells me this isn't going to be the kind of story one reads just for the board games.

So we get through the first two lines, and so far all I'm seeing is descriptions that feel like they come from a template. This is not a hopeful sign.

Granted, as readers go, I'm towards the non-visual-imagination of the spectrum. Some more visually-oriented readers might get a little more than I do out of the physical info you're presenting here, but even there, it's still not very informative.

Here are a couple of snips from Howard Schatz's "Athlete" (sample pages here; see also his other photography of athletes). These three guys are all very close to Greg's measurements (all 5'9"-5'10", all 165-170 lbs), but each is built very differently:



So when you tell me that Greg is 5'11" and 170 lbs, you're not getting me much closer to visualising his body shape, let alone how he carries it.

Is this bad, if so, why? I know it's better to show vs tell, but doing this allows you to provide details that otherwise would be clunky to include in the body of the story. If I'm writing a story about Greg and Milly meeting in a grocery store and they end up banging in Milly's Jeep in the parking lot, there isn't really any room in the story to mention their occupations or hobbies or hometowns without it seeming shoe-horned in, though the reader still might appreciate knowing.

Would they, though?

I like characters who are three-dimensional human beings. But that doesn't mean "tell me their hobbies which have nothing to do with the story and will never be mentioned again". It means showing me how those parts of them interact with other parts of their life. If you can't fit them into the story without it feeling shoe-horned in, then they probably aren't helping the story.

Since board games came up: there are quite a few stories on this site where board or card games play an important part. "Person stakes sexual favours on a game" is a well-worn storyline in erotica. But the ones that stand out in my memory are the ones where it's not just an excuse to tick off the "hobby?" section of the character sheet, or to get them into bed; they're the ones where the gameplay tied in with the characterisation.

I remember reading one story, must be at least fifteen years ago, where two people were playing chess for forfeits. You lose a pawn, you have to do such-and-such for the other player; more valuable pieces are bigger forfeits, and losing the game meant having to do whatever the other player wanted. Partway through the game, the protagonist realised she was in a bad position where the guy she was playing against could force a win. But she also knew that she could put him in a position where he'd have to sacrifice a rook on the way to victory, and a rook meant he'd have to do something unmanly (might've been ass-play). She figured that he was too egotistical to make that sacrifice. So she put him in that position, he refused the sacrifice that would've won him the game - expecting he'd be able to beat her without having to compromise his masculinity along the way - and because that was an unsound play, she was able to turn the game around and defeat him. (I think she got his rook along the way too.)

I don't remember anything else about that story, but I remember that scene, because the author wasn't just using the game as a plot device to set up for a sex scene. They wove character into the game: he might've been the better chess player, but she understood his personality better than he understood hers, and she was cunning enough to exploit that to gain domination over him.

I think writing character descriptions in 1st person POV is especially hard, since the narration can only include things that character would realistically be thinking in the given scenario. Let me know if I'm wrong, but doing the descriptions before the story just seems like a good way of providing info without clunking up the story.

Or you could just not provide that info, if it feels like it's clunking up the story.

 

[Djmac1031]

Characters:
Greg - Age: 27, Height: 5'11'', Weight: 170, Hair Color: Brown, Eye Color: Brown, Occupation: Electrician, Hobbies: Golf, Baking
Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc.

Honest answer? I'm gonna totally skip those descriptions.

It may not put me off the story entirely; I'll give it a chance.

But I'm definitely not reading a bullet point list outlining each character before I start.

My suggestion is skip that nonsense and add descriptions to your characters organically as the story progresses.

 

[SimonDoom]

I guess I should also ask this: maybe there is a difference between writing a proper story that contains erotica vs. pornography in written form? A lot of you are asking "Why should the reader want to know information that isn't pertinent to the story?" Well, for the same reason that porn sites have bio pages for their actors, and Playboy used to tell you the hometown and college degree of the centerfold model. End users like to know a little more about the people they're wanking to.

You are comparing apples and oranges. I don't think people look at characters in erotic stories the same way they do centerfold models, who are real people. The proper and clever (and more erotic) way to do this would be for them to meet in the baking aisle of the store, and Greg notices her looks and asks her advice for something having to do with baking, and then she reveals through a flirty conversation that she likes to bake. Then it becomes a meaningful part of the story and it gives them something to flirt about. But leave out everything that isn't necessary to the story.

You are getting about as strong and unified a response to a question as I have ever seen in this forum, from a lot of experienced writers, so consider that.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I guess I should also ask this: maybe there is a difference between writing a proper story that contains erotica vs. pornography in written form? A lot of you are asking "Why should the reader want to know information that isn't pertinent to the story?" Well, for the same reason that porn sites have bio pages for their actors, and Playboy used to tell you the hometown and college degree of the centerfold model. End users like to know a little more about the people they're wanking to.

Several people have given you good answers to this, but I want to add one more: because you're actively making it harder for your reader to follow the story.

People learn about each other a bit at a time. It's how we process information. I know you dismissed the party analogy, but it's not just an analogy; it's how we learn. We build bit upon bit. Think about when you meet with a doctor: even though they have a chart with all your stats and symptoms right in front of them, they still ask questions. They'll look at you first, ask questions that you already answered for the nurse, hone in on things that seem interesting, etc.

You have an FMC and an MMC in your story. If you infodump all that stuff on a reader, they're not going to remember it. They're going to have to go back up and look over and over if the piece of info is relevant. "How do they know each other? How tall is she? Wait, how big is this guy?" Presenting it as a drip instead of a dump lets them build a picture of the character in their head; it may not be exactly what you intended, but that's part of the fun. You build the character with the reader, and it makes the story more "theirs."

One other thing. You mention that this is how Playboy, etc. present info, with stats. But they present it AFTER the reader has seen a picture of the person. It's fun additional detail for the people that are interested, not vital building blocks intended to inform. Think about all of the other places where these kind of detailed infodumps are used: videogames (especially fighting games), baseball cards, action figure packaging, etc. All places where the end-user has already had a visual presented to them. In a textual medium, you don't have that advantage. You need to feed the info slowly for fear of overwhelming the reader.

 

[Djmac1031]

butt hat's part of the fun.

Tell me that's not intentional and is instead the Greatest Typo Ever.

Please.

 

[Tomh1966]

LOL to disagree with many... I like it.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Dating site, maybe. The only place I can see that working is if it's, say, a cop looking at the file of a known criminal.

It's a beast, though. I get it. Having to somehow fit a whole bunch of tiny facts in a story can be difficult, confusing and frustrating. But that's the game, that's why good writers get good scores and lots of readers. We've all (well, most of us) learned. I'm sure you can, too. Good luck!

 

[StillStunned]

It could be done, as a novelty. A story called something like "The Algorithm of Life", where Fate (with a capital F) matches strangers according to their personal descriptions.

But it would be either very tongue-in-cheek, or else very philosophical. I'm reminded of some of Terry Pratchett's writing, particularly his earlier works.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Several people have given you good answers to this, but I want to add one more: because you're actively making it harder for your reader to follow the story.

People learn about each other a bit at a time. It's how we process information. I know you dismissed the party analogy, but it's not just an analogy; it's how we learn. We build bit upon bit. Think about when you meet with a doctor: even though they have a chart with all your stats and symptoms right in front of them, they still ask questions. They'll look at you first, ask questions that you already answered for the nurse, hone in on things that seem interesting, etc.

You have an FMC and an MMC in your story. If you infodump all that stuff on a reader, they're not going to remember it. They're going to have to go back up and look over and over if the piece of info is relevant. "How do they know each other? How tall is she? Wait, how big is this guy?" Presenting it as a drip instead of a dump lets them build a picture of the character in their head; it may not be exactly what you intended, but that's part of the fun. You build the character with the reader, and it makes the story more "theirs."

One other thing. You mention that this is how Playboy, etc. present info, with stats. But they present it AFTER the reader has seen a picture of the person. It's fun additional detail for the people that are interested, not vital building blocks intended to inform. Think about all of the other places where these kind of detailed infodumps are used: videogames (especially fighting games), baseball cards, action figure packaging, etc. All places where the end-user has already had a visual presented to them. In a textual medium, you don't have that advantage. You need to feed the info slowly for fear of overwhelming the reader.

This crossed my mind, too. But most people have better memory than I do, so I didn't say anything. I wouldn't remember that list at all.

 

[TheSpleen]

No one actually needs a spleen.

How dare you.

 

[Altissimus]

How dare you.

'Joined 6 minutes ago'.

Thanks for making my point.

 

[Euphony]

I know it's better to show vs tell, but doing this allows you to provide details that otherwise would be clunky to include in the body of the story.

If it is clunky, it is trying to show you why.

Either you are including details which have little bearing on what's going on with the character (likely its existence is only to service a mythical reader wants who actually doesn't exist) or that you need to work on your weaving skills if they are necessary inclusions.

There's little standard of competency here (other than the truly unreadable/unintelligible) so you set your own standard.

The "dump" is meh for readers because there's little sense of unwinding, exploration, or earning it.

Plus, you've given them a task from the jump, having to memorize a run down of traits, measurements, etc. and also suss out whether or not each item is truly necessary and carry that along the entire work with very little to attach to to hopefully stick to memory. (how much easier is it to remember Kelly is short when she can't go on the roller coaster with the rest of the seniors vs. sticking 5'2" in a giant list?)

There is nothing wrong with doing so if that's what you are going for. If you are working more towards best practices, readers will gravitate more towards weaved little character raindrops sprinkled throughout than a giant firehose to the face before they've met a single character.

 

[AchtungNight]

How dare you.

I know some Mystery Men who could use a Spleen. They’ve got a big problem with a supervillain called the Pancreas!

To stay on topic, I remember when I first wrote my Keri Russell fanfic story “The Rendezvous” and I included a lengthy listed amount of the actress’s work. A reviewer acted snotty and said he didn’t need to know she had a minor role in the tv show Roar. If he had considered that I was using that detail to get Keri and another character friendly with each other based on the fact that the second character (her fellow bisexual swinger actress Erika Christensen) was a Roar fan, or maybe also considered that I was using it to femslash Keri & the female lead Vera Farmiga in her backstory which was later revealed in her epic introspection slash masturbation scene or also considered that I would remind readers at the final orgy climax that longtime friends can have buried attraction they need to realize and release which is an important plot detail…. Or that Roar in general was an awesome show and should have stayed on the air longer IMHO… maybe too much detail is bad either way?

 

[yukonnights]

The biggest flaw in the use of such a list is that it shuts down any attempt of any individual reader of the story to insert their own preference of the kind of people they get aroused by. In short, they're reading about some strangers they potentially don't really find appealing.

In my opinion, the erotic power in a story is the character's thoughts and emotions. In other words; 'she's just the kind of woman I've always wanted to get close to … her breasts a etc.' Focus on these and let the reader visualize according to their tastes. Give the reader enough bread crumbs of erotic observations in a way that'll leave them some room for their own imagination to paint the picture. Another example; 'When I finally get up the nerve to return his touch, the size and girth and virility is just what I've been needing for so long.'

There's no need for detailed physical statistics IMO, the goal is giving the reader the wispy and vague details to allow them to create the character of their dreams.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Hi, beginner writer here. Several of the guides in the Writer's Resources mention that it's bad to list character descriptors "like a police report," which I agree with if it's done inside the story. What about if you list the characters and basic info about them bullet point style before the story begins, like below:

Characters:
Greg - Age: 27, Height: 5'11'', Weight: 170, Hair Color: Brown, Eye Color: Brown, Occupation: Electrician, Hobbies: Golf, Baking
Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc.

Is this bad, if so, why? I know it's better to show vs tell, but doing this allows you to provide details that otherwise would be clunky to include in the body of the story. If I'm writing a story about Greg and Milly meeting in a grocery store and they end up banging in Milly's Jeep in the parking lot, there isn't really any room in the story to mention their occupations or hobbies or hometowns without it seeming shoe-horned in, though the reader still might appreciate knowing. I think writing character descriptions in 1st person POV is especially hard, since the narration can only include things that character would realistically be thinking in the given scenario. Let me know if I'm wrong, but doing the descriptions before the story just seems like a good way of providing info without clunking up the story.

Believe it or not, I don't really get anything out of the descriptors as you describe them. Knowing a person's exact height and weight down to the numbers doesn't help me picture them, at all. Consider descriptive terms like
- slender, thin, spindly, wispy
- thick, fat, wide, round, etc.
for body parts and so on. Within the body of the story, of course.

 

[IARainman]

Being edged by a new online friend

 

[Euphony]

maybe too much detail is bad either way?

Or maybe a singular reviewer not getting it has little bearing on whether you accomplished what you set out to do or not?

In the absence of voluminous criticisms/review, too many authors here shadow box a small handful of people who bother to chime in, often overweighting their opinions in the process.

Understandable but doesn't make it any less of a fruitless endeavor.

You've justified why Roar needed to be there. Another reviewer would've derided you if you had spelled out the linkage more directly (like you did here.)

You, literally, cannot win here.

 

[Djmac1031]

There's no need for detailed physical statistics IMO, the goal is giving the reader the wispy and vague details to allow them to create the character of their dreams.

I've worked really hard at that as I continue writing. Although sometimes a particular character you "see" very cleary, very detailed, and it's those details that help make the character who they are, and so I include them.

But overall I agree; often less is more when it comes to character descriptions.

 

[Euphony]

the goal is giving the reader the wispy and vague details to allow them to create the character of their dreams.

Sometimes, maybe even most times, but not always.

In more deliberate fiction, characters are who they are b/c that's who they need to be to drive the narrative. As the conductor of this symphony, occasionally I need to pull rank and tell the string lovers to key down a bit, I know what's better for the piece even if it doesn't tickle their ears perfectly the whole time.

It's my ass on the line. I've got exponentially more invested in this than anyone.

If I'm dying, I'm dying on my own terms. (and learning from those mistakes rather than staying vague to never offend, appear to never false step.)

 

[Euphony]

I've worked really hard at that as I continue writing. Although sometimes a particular character you "see" very cleary, very detailed, and it's those details that help make the character who they are, and so I include them.

Admittedly, I'm probably a crazy person but who my characters are isn't always under my own control, let alone some fly by reader.

My muse and her consorts abuse me if they feel it is necessary in telling their story.

I wish I could quit them but alas...

 

[madelinemasoch]

My muse and her consorts abuse me if they feel it is necessary in telling their story.

I wish I could quit them but alas...

Sounds romantic.