Archaic Historical references in a story.

[Pureotica]

If I compare something to a Maginot Line, are readers going the miss the reference? Not sure how much WWII history the kids get in school these days.

Context: Character lives in a tenement block across the street from a newer development. The old neighborhood is gradually falling to urban renewal, and the character has angst about being pushed out of the city. Her finances are tenuous and her crappy apartment is all she can afford. She refers to the row houses as a Maginot line against modernity. It's perfect, but only if the typical reader knows what the hell I'm talking about.

The Maginot line was a series of French defensive emplacements that proved useless against the German Blitzkrieg. WWI was trench warfare. WWII was all about mobility. The French were overrun, offering little resistance.

She's struggling with the inevitability of a circumstance beyond her control, if that makes sense. But I don't want to explain the reference. It needs to work organically. If it's too obscure, I'll need to find a better way.

Smut and history lessons in the same story. A two for one bargain at the incredible price of free.

 

[StillStunned]

Go for it. There are some readers who won't know, some readers who won't care, and some readers who will know and understand. That last group is probably larger than you'd think. Trust your audience to keep up with you.

If nothing else, they might look it up and learn something new. I doubt they'd nope out of your story over it, though.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Go with it. People will either:
Get the reference and keep reading
Not get the reference and keep reading
Nit get the reference, pause to Google it, then keep reading.

The average age here seems to skew a bit older anyway.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

When you said archaic I was expecting some Mesopotamian stuff or something.

And, for the record, the Maginot Line didn't get rolled over, they just went around it.

 

[onehitwanda]

Those who care but don't know will open google and, from there, Wikipedia.

Do it.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Personally, I would use the reference.

I don't "dumb down" my stories for the readers. If they don't understand a reference or a word isn't within their limited vocabulary, they can go look it up. Or not. The choices is theirs.

 

[ronde]

You're going to lose some readers even if you write about something that happened before about 1990. I often use historical references in my stories and unless I get something wrong, I don't get complaints in the comments. I think readers either know, don't care, or look it up if it seems relevant.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

I know what the Maginot line was.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I throw all sorts of recherché, recondite, and abstruse references into my stuff. I used “hypotrochoid” once. Doesn’t seem to put too many people off.

Em

 

[yowser]

It will all depend on the writing that came before. If you've succeeded in luring the reader in and write with confidence, no worries. If it's a careless, sloppy story and this is the fourth odd reference, not a good idea, But I suspect the former.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I used “hypotrochoid” once.

In the unlikely event that anyone cares, it was to describe nipple licking.

In my defense it was in my Geek Pride submission.

Em

 

[BBlaketbv]

Absolutely fine to include it.
I doubt anybody would stop reading because of it. And if they don't get the reference there is a chance you can teach them something.

Fun fact: I actually visited the region of France last summer and two years ago during the summer holidays. Seen parts of it, but we didn't actually visit it.

 

[KachinaDoll]

There are often things that are new to me in stories. If I think it's important I'll look it up. If not, I'll just carry on. You can't pander to every reader. I'm still trying to figure out the American education system.

 

[Zootonius]

I'm writing a story where the MCs learn each had a fascination with Agent Garbo. For a few reads it may pique their curiosity.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There are often things that are new to me in stories. If I think it's important I'll look it up. If not, I'll just carry on. You can't pander to every reader. I'm still trying to figure out the American education system.

Nobody understands the America Education system.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I've done a few period pieces, and my WIP (for the Holiday contest) takes place in 1945. I have used a fair of amount of period jargon and a number of cultural references that might not be common knowledge. I think it's important to see them as color details, and not use them in a way that the readers ability to follow the narrative is compromised.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Use it. I like the idea.

In a similar context, I write most stories from an Australian point of view, and assume most readers can figure out the odd references I toss in.

 

[Voboy]

Write the story you'd enjoy reading.

If you'd like that simile, use it. Others will like it, too, and those that don't? Either they'll gloss over it and miss the reference or they'll boot your story and find something less well-written. Their loss, either way.

Or? They'll look it up and educate themselves. That's a win.

 

[RetroFan]

I often make references to archaic and outdated things in my stories set in the past to make it seem more realistic for the time it is set.

For example in my most recent story 'Cindy's Close Encounter' which is set in 1959 Cindy, her boyfriend and their friends pay a visit to New York City right at the end and narrator Cindy notes seeing the Empire State & Chrysler Buildings as well as Singer Tower. Singer Tower was demolished in 1969, and its inclusion in a story set 10 years before this helps make it seem more authentic (that's if any of the readers had heard of Singer Tower).

On a similar note, in other stories set in New York in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s I've had characters see the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center, again to show that the story is set in a time long past.

 

[gunhilltrain]

When you said archaic I was expecting some Mesopotamian stuff or something.

And, for the record, the Maginot Line didn't get rolled over, they just went around it.

The question I have is not whether the reader would get the reference, but whether the character would even know it or use it. How old is this person and when is this event taking place? The urban renewal you are referring to mostly happened in the 1950's and 60's. Is this in a particular city you know? It sounds like a 1960's event in Manhattan (Kips Bay or Lincoln Center) or Boston (the West End).

In later decades, urban changes mostly happened because of gentrification, which mostly involves upgrading of existing buildings by private developers, not government action so much. People are more worried about rents going up in existing buildings, not new buildings. It can vary a lot according to location. And since COVID, real estate values have been upended in many cities. with some formerly hot markets like San Francisco slumping while other places like Las Vegas are booming.

Sorry for mucking up the plot so much. I'd say an adult in around 1970 would know what the Maginot Line was. Someone today probably wouldn't.

 

[Voboy]

The question I have is not whether the reader would get the reference, but whether the character would even know it or use it.

I spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about this very thing. I mostly use FP, and I sometimes find myself typing something Voboy would say, rather than something my narrator would say.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about this very thing. I mostly use FP, and I sometimes find myself typing something Voboy would say, rather than something my narrator would say.

I was thinking more of the urban renewal angle than the World War II aspect. It was true that Jane Jacobs (you've heard of her?) made her bones complaining about how cities would displace poor people through eminent domain and then sell the land to private developers. I met a few of the people who had to move because of the Kips Bay development on the East Side of Manhattan. But that was over sixty years ago.

I know, I kind of went around the question to something else. It struck me that the plot itself is a period piece even if it was accurate for the time.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I throw all sorts of recherché, recondite, and abstruse references into my stuff. I used “hypotrochoid” once. Doesn’t seem to put too many people off.

Em

Damn you, my dictionary is in the other room...

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I would think the correct questions would be:
Is the reference appropriate for the character?
Are they of an age that they would know about the Maginot Line?
Are they a history buff?

Those kind of things. If the reference fits the character, then the readers will buy it.
If your character is a fifth grader and their name isn't Sheldon, them maybe rethink...

 

[EmilyMiller]

Damn you, my dictionary is in the other room...

I can only extend copious apologies for your manifest discombobulation, I am penitent, contrite, and remorseful.

Em