A Few Newbie Questions

[PenelopeWood]

First off, let me start by saying Hello. I have lurked over the years, mostly for writing challenges when my brain has become muddled, or searching for answers to questions I have yet asked myself.

1.) Citing my works- My preference is for period pieces, therefore, I research for information, i.e. one at the present I needed to know how to make paper, do I cite where I googled it from?

2.) Dialogue in a foreign language- What is the best way to use it in my story?

A) Start off in the said language, have another character repeat in English? To me, this would become redundant.
B) Have it spoken in English and reference someway it is in a foreign language?
Example: he spoke in a thick German accent.
C) Write it in the foreign language and hope my readers can deduce what is being spoken?

Thank You in advance for your time and consideration to my questions and have a wonderful day!

 

[SimonDoom]

First off, let me start by saying Hello. I have lurked over the years, mostly for writing challenges when my brain has become muddled, or searching for answers to questions I have yet asked myself.

1.) Citing my works- My preference is for period pieces, therefore, I research for information, i.e. one at the present I needed to know how to make paper, do I cite where I googled it from?

2.) Dialogue in a foreign language- What is the best way to use it in my story?

A) Start off in the said language, have another character repeat in English? To me, this would become redundant.
B) Have it spoken in English and reference someway it is in a foreign language?
Example: he spoke in a thick German accent.
C) Write it in the foreign language and hope my readers can deduce what is being spoken?

Thank You in advance for your time and consideration to my questions and have a wonderful day!

1. I don't understand your first question.

2. Re the second question: The general rule is that dialogue should be in the same language as narrative, regardless of the country of origin of the speaker. Shakespeare didn't have his characters in Hamlet speak Danish; they spoke English. Otherwise, your readers won't understand. If you have a really good reason to deviate from this rule you can do so in small doses.

 

[jaF0]

This is fiction, not a Doctoral Thesis. Source citing isn't necessary. And the word is 'searched'. G is one search engine among many.

This site uses English.

 

[KeithD]

1. No.

2. C can get irritating for the reader very quickly. Some of B and a bit less of A and, of late, I've been doing D to bring the reader more into the flavor of the setting--and sometimes where multiple languages are given. In D, I give the foreign vernacular, quoted and in italics, followed either directly or in a characters retelling in English. My current Nude contest entry, "The Nude on the Balcony" (https://www.literotica.com/s/the-nude-on-the-balcony, including both Greek and Arabic, both Romanized) illustrates D.

 

[HectorBidon]

Hi Penelope, welcome aboard.

I agree with the others that there is no need to cite the sources from which you obtained background material. This is in no ways a very academic site.

I also agree that dialog should mostly be in English, with perhaps a few foreign phrases added for flavor. However, if the characters are speaking multiple languages, not all of which are mutually intelligible, then you've got to figure out how to convey this to the readers. There was a discussion about this here:

How to best handle multi-language situation in a story?

Good luck.

 

[LoquiSordidaAdMe]

First off, let me start by saying Hello. I have lurked over the years, mostly for writing challenges when my brain has become muddled, or searching for answers to questions I have yet asked myself.

1.) Citing my works- My preference is for period pieces, therefore, I research for information, i.e. one at the present I needed to know how to make paper, do I cite where I googled it from?

2.) Dialogue in a foreign language- What is the best way to use it in my story?

A) Start off in the said language, have another character repeat in English? To me, this would become redundant.
B) Have it spoken in English and reference someway it is in a foreign language?
Example: he spoke in a thick German accent.
C) Write it in the foreign language and hope my readers can deduce what is being spoken?

Thank You in advance for your time and consideration to my questions and have a wonderful day!

Welcome Penelope!

In regards to your first question, you don't specifically say that you are writing a story to post here on Literotica, but I assume that is the case. So no, you don't have to cite sources. This is a site for fiction, not academic research. Nobody's grading or peer-reviewing you and as long as you're not copy/pasting whole sentences from your sources, you're fine. If we had to cite sources, I'd have some citation lists longer than the story itself.

As for languages, if you are writing in English you are writing for an English speaking audience. With few exceptions your dialogue should be in English with an indication of the language being spoken. If you'd like a good example, in my story "One Night in Dubai" there are five languages spoken on the first page—Mandarin, Arabic, French, Farsi and then finally English. With the exception of a few well known French words, all of the dialogue is actually written in English.

Best of luck on whatever you're working on.

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

All good suggestions so far, regarding the multiple languages. One option that I don't think has been mentioned yet would be to have a character that isn't a native English speaker talk to someone who is. Of course they need to be decently fluent in English for that, but you can have them search for words, maybe just mention the word in their native language and then describing it in English while the other character tries to figure out what they mean. It can help give that international feeling and can be an interesting character trait, if you don't overdo it.

You can also just include some foreign phrases for flavor, in which case their meaning should either be irrelevant or clear from context. Like swearing in a foreign language, or expressing surprise, etc. As long as the general intention of the phrase is clear from the context it should be understandable, but again don't overuse it.

Without knowing the characters, languages and settings involved in your story it would be hard to give more tailored advice though, so all we can do is list general options.

 

[NotWise]

You can also just include some foreign phrases for flavor, in which case their meaning should either be irrelevant or clear from context. Like swearing in a foreign language, or expressing surprise, etc. As long as the general intention of the phrase is clear from the context it should be understandable, but again don't overuse it.

This is what I do with Spanish-speaking characters.

 

[Hypoxia]

Greetings and good luck.

In The Botanists, a historical romance about actual notable people, I list basic references in a final note. In A Spot Of Music I start with a cited passage from an anecdotal book. I can think of a few tales where I mention some reference as a plot point. If a reference, real or fictional, works in your storyline and will not confuse or delay the reader, go for it. Or a slew of real and fake citations in a parody of a tech paper -- that could be fun! But in general -- don't.

Ah, the language thang. I may have an ethnic player utter a short phrase in Hopi or Spanish or Maori, followed by a rough Anglish translation, but the vast majority of their words are fairly standard Anglish. For verbal exchanges in other languages, enclose their translations in angles to denote the tongue, or just let them jabber in Anglish. Do NOT phonetically render a dialect -- that slows and glazes eyeballs.

Those are my ways. Others have their ways. Find your own way.

 

[Handley_Page]

First off, let me start by saying Hello. I have lurked over the years, mostly for writing challenges when my brain has become muddled, or searching for answers to questions I have yet asked myself.

1.) Citing my works- My preference is for period pieces, therefore, I research for information, i.e. one at the present I needed to know how to make paper, do I cite where I googled it from?

2.) Dialogue in a foreign language- What is the best way to use it in my story?

A) Start off in the said language, have another character repeat in English? To me, this would become redundant.
B) Have it spoken in English and reference someway it is in a foreign language?
Example: he spoke in a thick German accent.
C) Write it in the foreign language and hope my readers can deduce what is being spoken?

Thank You in advance for your time and consideration to my questions and have a wonderful day!

1]. I think you might include an 'afterword' if you really must. A simple pointer to Google or some suitable finder: "you can find more at. . . . "

2] A word or two in that language is sufficient, I think. After that 'he spoke with a German /whatever accent.

 

[Bramblethorn]

1.) Citing my works- My preference is for period pieces, therefore, I research for information, i.e. one at the present I needed to know how to make paper, do I cite where I googled it from?

Not compulsory, but if it's a particular focus of the story and you think readers might be interested, you could acknowledge the source by author and title. You can't post a link.

2.) Dialogue in a foreign language- What is the best way to use it in my story?

A) Start off in the said language, have another character repeat in English? To me, this would become redundant.
B) Have it spoken in English and reference someway it is in a foreign language?
Example: he spoke in a thick German accent.
C) Write it in the foreign language and hope my readers can deduce what is being spoken?

My rule of thumb is to pick whichever option best puts your reader in the protagonist's shoes. If they can understand what's being said, put it in English, perhaps adding something like "we spoke in German"; if they can't, leave it in the original and let the reader share their confusion.

If people are hopping between languages, and the hopping is important (e.g. Alice and Bob switch languages so Charlie can't understand them), then there are a couple of options. One is to present the original followed by bracketed translation:

"So, my dear," said Andy, "can I interest you in coming back to my place for... coffee?"

"No, thank you. Um ehrlich zu sein, ich hätte lieber mit Ihrer Schwester... warten Sie, sprichst sie auch deutsch?" ["To be honest, I would rather with your sister... wait, does she speak German too?"]

"Ja, eigentlich, das kann ich, und meine Antwort ist doch 'ja'." She took my elbow, turned and gave him a little wink. "Bis morgen, kleiner Bruder!" ["Yes, actually, I do, and my answer is yes. See you tomorrow, little brother!"

(If I was actually posting this as a story, I'd get somebody with better German to check that for me - if you're going to do it, do it right!)

Another is to keep it all in English, but indicate the language alongside the speech attribution, e.g.:

Jane spoke in Russian. "Who's the guy in the tuxedo?"

"Don't know, but he's carrying a gun." I switched back to English. "So how has the import-export business been treating you?"

If you're going to do it a lot, you can compress it to something like this:

[German] "Welcome!"
[French] "Welcome!"
[English] "Welcome!"

I'm not sure if there's an official style for that, but as long as you're consistent, readers should understand.

 

[Hypoxia]

I'm not sure if there's an official style for that, but as long as you're consistent, readers should understand.

That's what's crucial: clarity. Only fuck with readers' heads as needed.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

That's what's crucial: clarity. Only fuck with readers' heads as needed.

Nicely put, sir.

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

My rule of thumb is to pick whichever option best puts your reader in the protagonist's shoes. If they can understand what's being said, put it in English, perhaps adding something like "we spoke in German"; if they can't, leave it in the original and let the reader share their confusion.

The problem with that second option is that you don't know which languages the reader speaks. Like, my German is a bit rusty, but I didn't need any translations to understand your example further down that post. And even if they don't speak the language, they can always paste it into Google Translate or something to find out what it says. Maybe the protagonist doesn't understand German, but the reader very well might. I'd stick to "X spoke in German" if it's crucial the reader shares the protagonist's lack of understanding of the language, like when they are discussing things the reader isn't supposed to know yet or that would ruin a twist later on if they could understand what was being said. Of course, feel free to literally include the foreign language if the reader being able to read it wouldn't have any impact on the story, but it is something to consider.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The problem with that second option is that you don't know which languages the reader speaks. Like, my German is a bit rusty, but I didn't need any translations to understand your example further down that post. And even if they don't speak the language, they can always paste it into Google Translate or something to find out what it says.

It's not necessary to make it impossible for the reader to understand. If the reader has to go to the trouble of pasting it into Google Translate, then I've already succeeded in putting them in the shoes of somebody who can't easily and instantly understand what's being said. I'm not talking about secret plot information that might ruin the story if the reader learns it, just about getting them to empathise with a protagonist who may not understand everything everyone's saying.

And yes, there might be a few percent of readers who happen to know the language being used, and that particular device isn't going to work on them. That's okay. Not every device needs to work on every reader, and I don't expect a story to stand or fall on that alone.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I usually try to use a short, but obvious, statement in the language and then either indicate the speaker continued in that language or segue into the dialog with reference to the meaning of the brief phrase. For example, "Er ist Sommer und die Sonne scheint," Gustav loudly declared. And it was, indeed, a sunny summer day. "And you're as radiant as the Sun," he continued seductively, though Felicia barely understood the language.

 

[SimonDoom]

The problem with that second option is that you don't know which languages the reader speaks. Like, my German is a bit rusty, but I didn't need any translations to understand your example further down that post. And even if they don't speak the language, they can always paste it into Google Translate or something to find out what it says. Maybe the protagonist doesn't understand German, but the reader very well might. I'd stick to "X spoke in German" if it's crucial the reader shares the protagonist's lack of understanding of the language, like when they are discussing things the reader isn't supposed to know yet or that would ruin a twist later on if they could understand what was being said. Of course, feel free to literally include the foreign language if the reader being able to read it wouldn't have any impact on the story, but it is something to consider.

I don't think it's a problem that some readers aren't like most readers. If a story is in English and it's narrated by someone who speaks English and that person encounters someone speaking German, then if the German person's dialogue is in English the average reader's experience will approximate that of the character. Most English-speaking people don't know German. Most English-speaking readers will be as confused as the author means to convey the narrator is. The best the author can do is to ask, how will most English-speaking readers experience this bit of dialogue?

I do not know German, and I wouldn't trust various online translators to translate well enough to make me comfortable writing dialogue in German. So, if I were to narrate an encounter between an English-speaking narrator and a German-speaking person whose words the narrator didn't understand, I would do it something like this:

"Can you tell me how to get to the town?" I asked.

He said a few words in response. They sounded like German, but I didn't understand anything he
said.

This approach would work better in first person than in third person, where the narrator of the story would be expected to know what the German speaker was saying.

 

[Javahead]

Good points by SimonDoom.

Another is that of the English speakers who do understand another language, many - most? - aren’t fluent enough to catch the little nuances that make a native speaker wince. Unless you’re using a stock phrase that you know is correct, it can work better to include a single word in the other language, helpfully translated if needed. Or have the English speaker attempt to speak the other language, so any errors would be in character rather than a distraction.

 

[KolaKiss]

This is fiction, not a Doctoral Thesis. Source citing isn't necessary. And the word is 'searched'. G is one search engine among many.

This site uses English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_(verb)

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/google#google_inflg_1

 

[Hypoxia]

Is presenting a non-Anglish monolog or dialog to a mainly Anglophone audience really critical in your tale? I dislike 'cultured' Anglophile writers who include untranslated passages in Latin, French, or (oh shit!) non-Western fonts; as if we're either as clever as they, or will worship their superiority. Am I similarly guilty when adding a little Spanglish?

I just now came across this WritingWorldDotCom methods article, I Love You, My Little Cabbage: Using Foreign Words in Your Fiction. The possible methods, not all good:

1. Write some key words and phrases in the foreign language, but offer the English translation.
2. Write [well-known] words and phrases in the foreign language, and don't translate them.
3. Translate literally some unusual foreign expressions.
4. Infuse the cadence and the syntax of the foreign language into the dialogue that you write in English.
5. Enhance the dialogue with descriptions of non-verbal communication.
6. Write long passages in the foreign tongue; translate nothing. [not condoned]

I think I've used all but the last.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I do not know German, and I wouldn't trust various online translators to translate well enough to make me comfortable writing dialogue in German.

You would be correct. I'll use Google Translate to jog my memory, but even my very basic German is enough to see that it's far from reliable in either direction. It's impossible to make machine translation accurate until machines can understand the context of a conversation - something as basic as "you" has at least four possible translations.

Not to mention dialects that are plausible for the characters - the High German taught in my course isn't how a farmer from Saxony will speak.

Is presenting a non-Anglish monolog or dialog to a mainly Anglophone audience really critical in your tale? I dislike 'cultured' Anglophile writers who include untranslated passages in Latin, French, or (oh shit!) non-Western fonts; as if we're either as clever as they, or will worship their superiority. Am I similarly guilty when adding a little Spanglish?

It's obnoxious when used for things that readers need to understand to follow the story - "if you didn't study Latin, this story is not for you". Thankfully that seems to be going out of fashion these days.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

It's obnoxious when used for things that readers need to understand to follow the story - "if you didn't study Latin, this story is not for you". Thankfully that seems to be going out of fashion these days.

Up to the early 20th Century it was common to render the naughty bits in Latin for academic works so it would all be Greek to the hoi polloi. For example, one Chipewyan tale collected by Lowie includes "he turned to the younger sister, et sub vestum manum introduxit. Sed aliquid prehendare conatus est. He pulled it back."

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Up to the early 20th Century it was common to render the naughty bits in Latin for academic works so it would all be Greek to the hoi polloi.

I have a copy of Boccaccio's The Decameron, printed perhaps in the 30s, with the bawdy bits of one story still in middle-Italian.

It bears the weaselly footnote: The translators regret that the disuse into which magic has fallen, makes it impossible to render the technicalities of that mysterious art into tolerable English; they have therefore found it necessary to insert several passages in the original Italian.

 

[KeithD]

I have a copy of Boccaccio's The Decameron, printed perhaps in the 30s, with the bawdy bits of one story still in middle-Italian.

It bears the weaselly footnote: The translators regret that the disuse into which magic has fallen, makes it impossible to render the technicalities of that mysterious art into tolerable English; they have therefore found it necessary to insert several passages in the original Italian.

That's enough of an incentive to study Italian, I think. Someone else, though, I'm afraid. I managed German, but not enough in studying French, Mandarin, Japanese, Thai, and Greek to manage what must be in those passages if a professional translator couldn't unlock them.

 

[ishtat]

There is an Indian author on this site called rubysen who generally wrote in (good) English but included fairly extended passages in Bengali. That may seem odd at first but if one remembers that India provides about 11% of Lit's readers and that 260+ million people speak Bengali (Bangla) it may have helped her tap into a wider readership.