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Jealousy....bad or convenient?

catalina_francisco

catalina_francisco

Happily insatiable always
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Posts
18,730
As I have read through many posts, old and new, I have often read D's pronouncing it a bad and/or negative issue when a sub becomes jealous if the dominant decides to take more submissives/slaves, and unacceptable and unwarranted. I also notice, many of the same D's admit they will not allow their submissives interaction of the same level with others because of their own jealousy, or diplomatically perhaps, their dislike of sharing.

As most D's hold their sub/slaves emotional and mental welfare as important as their physical, and part of their responsibility, how and why is this issue defined differently for D and submissive respectively? I recognise the issue of rights of dominants, but also know there is an acknowledged duty of care for most which is often challenged by this issue and many others. Perhaps more open discussion and respectfully expressed perceptions will help many deal with the difficulties they encounter living this reality.
 
Jealousy kills a relationship. I am of course not talking about normal human jealousy one feels, but the overwhelming sort that controls your actions and nothing else matters.

I am not jealous by nature, but I dont like to share. Sharing, however, is something one can get over, but jealousy is a bitch to live with.
 
I don't get it. I've always thought that one who forbids a slave to so much as talk to another Dominant doesn't really own that slave.

I love to share, I want M to learn and grow, and have whatever interaction he needs with other people, same sex, opposite sex, non-sexual, WHATEVER he needs. If anything I want his horizons broadened.

Nothing feels more like ownership to me than my certainty that it's me he'll come back to, my bed, my whip, my house, ME.

I have complete confidence in this, more than most things I can think of. It's never occured to me that he might "find something better." Nor has any associated worry. I'd never put him in a situation I knew was bad for him and I let him use his own judgement as a marker and a means for him to keep himself safe.

Meanwhile I'm lucky enough to be able to roll around in bed with some girl and be treated with deference and respect and not voyeurism should he come home early. I don't take to other partners lightly or thoughtlessly, I cultivate an erotic friendship, but it's never the same as being with M and he knows it. Besides being an issue of "I can do what I want I'm the D" I've created a buffer zone of assurences a very clear message for M so that he need not have concerns about my leaving or doing anything stupid.
 
> As most D's hold their sub/slaves emotional and mental welfare as
> important as their physical, and part of their responsibility,

I believe most Dom's don't think or act this way though most Dommes
probably do.


> how and why is this issue defined differently for D and submissive
> respectively?

It is double standards and the Dom's are just being selfish and
unreasonable.


> I recognise the issue of rights of dominants, but also know there
> is an acknowledged duty of care for most which is often challenged
> by this issue

From a Dom's point of view the duty of care is meet by keeping
everything consenual, respecting safewords, no intentional emotional
or mental torture, etc. However any incidental unintended emotional
damage due to taking on other subs doesn't count.
 
Netzach said:
I don't take to other partners lightly or thoughtlessly, I cultivate an erotic friendship, but it's never the same as being with M and he knows it.
Click to expand...

:eek:

WOW
Thank you
GREAT turn of phrase & an elegant way to describe something I end up arguing with folks about alll the time
I'm gonna borrow that expression if you don't mind :D
 
If I may summarize, N cuts the sub male some slack, 'knowing' he'll come back (and if not, it's better he be elsewhere, anyway).

She cuts herself a lot of slack, similarly, but, calls it 'erotic friendship' and makes it clear that this is not a contemplated replacement of the relationship with her sub male.

In short, there's a kind of symmetry. BUT the question is, is she obigated in that direction? Or is it, as she's said elsewhere, _at her pleasure_, say, like allowing the sub an ice cream?

Getting back to the original question,
As most D's hold their sub/slaves emotional and mental welfare as important as their physical, and part of their responsibility, how and why is this issue defined differently for D and submissive respectively?

In essence, is there a rationale for a 'double standard'?

I believe there is, if indeed some type of erotic dominance is at issue. Asymmetry (except on pleasure [permission] of [the] top) is there by definition. Of course, we have 'bottom line' concerns for 'welfare' in the broad sense. In simple terms, the basic _needs_ of each person. And as LTR says, there are extreme, obsessive, pathological forms of jealousy that might interfere with psychic health.

At the same time, [if] the dom/me [dominates, then] by definition, there is to be a degree of imposition of _desire_. If the dom/me really wants a quiet evening for personal pursuits, that takes precedence over the subs desire to go the the movies together.

The dom/me's desire for another, is, imo, part of that prerogative
(not in the sense of 'I will throw this in my partner's face and drive them crazy'-- or 'I will incite an obsessive and deranging degree of jealousy').

It's true, as N say, that the sub's desire for another may well be viewed as not meriting hindrance. Indeed the 'security' of a healthy dom/me {or anyone in a solid relationship} should not be affected by learning of a vagrant desire in the sub {or other}. At the same time, that desire is without 'inherent right' to satisfaction, just as the desire to leave home for the evening, avoid chores, and entertain oneself.

There are lots of other issues, for instance agreements. But lets say that the above points apply on the presumption that the dom/me hasn't promised to practice 1-1 sexual exclusiveness, or to avoid sexual encounters with others.

Just my aberrant opinions.

J.
 
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Adding a couple of cents (that probably won't make any sense to anybody but myself) to the mix here...

Who ever said it's different for doms and subs? i've never run across it, or not much, except for noticing that most dominant people tend to be more outspoken about the openness of their relationships. And just like anybody else, they would rather have their SO (subs in this case) be completely faithful while they go out and have a little fun on the side. It's part of human nature. Greed. Nothing unusual about that at all.

It's highly probable that if you were to take a group of subs aside one by one and ask them what they thought about doms being able to see another person while they weren't, they would think it was highly unfair. If you were to ask what they thought of their being able to see another person while their doms weren't inclined to do so, it would seem a little more fair but still one-sided. Ask that same group what they thought if both people in the relationship could see others and they just might find no problem with that. Again, it's just human nature.

There is something missing from the original question, though. What about respect? A D/s relationship is no different than any other in the fact that everybody involved needs to have respect for everybody (including themselves). Part of having respect is caring for the mental and emotional well-being of the people involved. This is effected by seeing other people on the side.

It's my opinion that anybody getting involved in ANY relationship should be able to say that, for example, 'i don't mind if we can see other people, as long as both of us realize that we'll be coming home to each other again the next day' or something along that line. This is also one of those things that should remain flexible throughout the whole course of a relationship. Open communication about the whole thing is essential. If it bothers either the dom or the sub that the other has been spending more time with somebody they don't approve of for a specific reason, they should be able to speak their mind and work out something that will make them both more at ease, if not necessarily happy. If either the dom or the sub can't - or won't - find it in themself to change for the sake of the other, they're simply not worth the time and effort it would take for the other to make them happy. Again, just my opinion.

OK, back to subject: there is no double standard. It's just a matter of how each relationship pans out as it and the people in it grow. It depends on how the people involve interact with each other and what they expect from each other.

*tosses in another quarter to cover the soapbox rental and goes back into hiding*
 
Entitled:
// Part of having respect is caring for the mental and emotional well-being of the people involved. This is effected by seeing other people on the side. //

Very Freudian!
 
*blink* Really? *laughs* i never studied any of that stuff. That was all me-ian.
 
Not liking to share is not an indication of jealousy. It is a preference.

I define the parameters of My world and those that serve Me in it. If they do not like the terms, they can go elsewhere. I do not allow a sub to dictate to Me what I can or can not do. I drive, they ride.

If a sub is jealous, then perhaps he is better off in a more vanilla relationship where jealousy is tolerated. It is not tolerated in My world.
 
Generally speaking

I don't usually allow my subs to play with other doms. It might be jealously, but I think its more because I want my subs in tune with my tastes and not someone else’s. It's the same as if someone rearranges my desk. Occasionally if a sub is desperately desiring to be with a domme, I'll let that happen. However by the same token I don't often stray myself. I feel it detracts from the intensity of the relationship.

Certainly her thoughts/desires play a part in this. I want everyone to have fun. The best way in my mind to avoid jealously it to talk alot. I don't mean play Q&A sessions (although I do have those too), but fat and lazy bullshit time. If something is a issue it will come up. Is there a double standard? Of course, it's not an equal relationship to begin with. The trick is balance otherwise you poison the relationship.
 
entitled said:
If either the dom or the sub can't - or won't - find it in themself to change for the sake of the other, they're simply not worth the time and effort it would take for the other to make them happy. Again, just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I have a problem with this, although it may just be the wording. Some people just aren't compatible. If changing to suit the needs of your partner means you have to do something you really don’t like then it’s just time to move on. That not selfishness, it’s just being different.
 
Pure said:
In short, there's a kind of symmetry. BUT the question is, is she obigated in that direction? Or is it, as she's said elsewhere, _at her pleasure_, say, like allowing the sub an ice cream?
<snip>
In essence, is there a rationale for a 'double standard'?

I believe there is, if indeed some type of erotic dominance is at issue. Asymmetry (except on pleasure of top) is there by definition. Of course, we have 'bottom line' concerns for 'welfare' in the broad sense.
<snip>At the same time, the dom/me by definition, there is to be a degree of imposition of _desire_. If the dom/me really wants a quiet evening for personal pursuits, that takes precedence over the subs desire to go the the movies together.

The dom/me's desire for another, is, imo, part of that prerogative
(not in the sense of 'I will throw this in my partner's face and drive them crazy'-- or 'I will incite an obsessive and deranging degree of jealousy').
Click to expand...

Croctden said:
I don't usually allow my subs to play with other doms. It might be jealously, but I think its more because I want my subs in tune with my tastes and not someone else’s. It's the same as if someone rearranges my desk.
Click to expand...

Yanno, you both bring up things I never thought of in respect to this, thanks
I will have to think about it before I reply
 
Croctden said:
I have a problem with this, although it may just be the wording. Some people just aren't compatible. If changing to suit the needs of your partner means you have to do something you really don’t like then it’s just time to move on. That not selfishness, it’s just being different.
Click to expand...
It's probably the wording. i've been having a rather bad day and got grouchy.

Either that or i really meant it exactly as it's worded but in a different way. *laughs* i'm personally one of those people that believes life is too short to keep trying to work something out that simply WILL NOT work, no matter how hard you try. Square peg, round hole. It shouldn't take that long to figure out that if either one or the other simply will not change, or will not even consider compromising at all, the relationship will not work. That makes it not worth the effort. Does that sound better?
 
Thanks for all the ideas and sharing of thoughts, it has been interesting. I agree with some, not so much with others. I agree with Croctden it is a matter of communicating and exploring the feelings and thoughts of each other. I think any relationship that has elements of promise deserves this, but also agree it should never be about remodelling the person to become what you think they should be or suits your purposes alone. That to me is not only asking for disaster at some later, if not sooner date, but is also seriously interferring with the psychological and emotional welfare of your SO.

From people I have read and listened to on the subject of jealousy, I think it is one of those areas many feel better burying and/or disguising as something else. I also think it does often have a double standard, not just in BDSM, but also vanilla relationships. Perhaps the real issue is where does that jealousy evolve from...is it possessiveness, insecurity, fear, agression, passion, all the above, or something else entirely? Does it have a common element for all, or is each individual instance independent of the other?

Catalina
 
catalina_francisco said:

From people I have read and listened to on the subject of jealousy, I think it is one of those areas many feel better burying and/or disguising as something else.
Catalina
Click to expand...

Absolutely. It's one of those emotions most like to deny ever feeling.
 
Originally posted by catalina_francisco

//From people I have read and listened to on the subject of jealousy, I think it is one of those areas many feel better burying and/or disguising as something else. //
Catalina
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A desert rose:

Absolutely. It's one of those emotions most like to deny ever feeling.

I don't agree at all, there. It's a 'class' thing, imo. The 'therapy' crowd, the 'sensitive partners', the yuppie delvers into 'Psychology Today' (still exists?), all find jealousy embarrassing. (Groups of which I'm a proud member!)

Joe and Jane, on the street; w/o the white collar and the 'complexes', all talk of jealousy a lot. Indeed male jealousy is taken as a kind of compliment, quite often.

J.
 
Pure said:
Originally posted by catalina_francisco

I don't agree at all, there. It's a 'class' thing, imo. The 'therapy' crowd, the 'sensitive partners', the yuppie delvers into 'Psychology Today' (still exists?), all find jealousy embarrassing. (Groups of which I'm a proud member!)

Joe and Jane, on the street; w/o the white collar and the 'complexes', all talk of jealousy a lot. Indeed male jealousy is taken as a kind of compliment, quite often.

J.
Click to expand...

that's a good point
I've heard women talk about seeing their guy's jealousy as a sign of his love for her

*edited to add:
This goes back, IMHO, to the idea of love as a form of ownership
Another of those negative ideas espoused to enforce monogamy :rolleyes:
 
Can't say I agree with the 'class' classification of jealousy. I have lived with people who basically live their lives on the street, and they have felt jealousy was a negative emotion most did not want to admit to, especially women, because nine times out of ten they were put down or punished in some way for exhibiting, and naming, jealousy as such.

As for it being seen by some as a sign of love, or complimentary, this in part is sometimes true. On the other hand, as a counsellor who specialises in the areas of first and foremost domestic violence and abuse, relationships, and also LGBT issues, it is a misconception. Many, women especially, through socialisation and environmental factors are prone to initially see a partner's displays and declarations of jealousy as love or complimentary of her worth as a partner. It is only as time goes on and the behaviour of their SO continues to a point they begin to realise their life is no longer their own and they are subject to the non consensual control of another, that they realise jealousy was anything but a sign of love or complimentary, more a signal warning danger to themselves and insecurity in their partner.

There are several books which highlight this issue of jealousy, and also DV and abuse and the relationship with jealousy. One I am rereading at the moment is particularly good, 'The Gift Of Fear' by Gavin de Becker, whcih highlights the various signs we all intuitively see in others which signal danger to ourselves and others. Because of views based on patriarchal thought processes which downplay the importance and authenticity of intuition, a skill particularly strong in women, but again not tangible thus scientifically provable through dissection on a table, we have been socialised to minimise the importance of these often subconcious alarm bells, repressing them in favour of being seen to be logical and mature. Unfortunately, as he demonstrates in the book through individual cases he has been associated with in his work with violence, the repression has cost individuals dearly. Is an interesting read from a man who has learnt through life experience, not just empirical knowledge based theories.

Catalina
 
In my not so humble opinion

Jealousy is not a natural human condition. It is a passive aggressive control mechanism.


Originally posted by entitled
Click to expand...
that most dominant people tend to be more outspoken about the openness of their relationships.

And rightfully so. A submissive needs to know the reality of a Dom/me expectations on how the relationship should go. If they do not like it, they can choose another Dom/me.


And just like anybody else, they would rather have their SO (subs in this case) be completely faithful while they go out and have a little fun on the side. It's part of human nature. Greed. Nothing unusual about that at all.



Oh really? that sounds like vanilla (conventional) thinking to me. if a submissive wants a monogamous relationship, he or she should look for a husband or wife.

Greed has nothing to do with it. Ownership does. A dominant chooses the lifestyle he or she wants to lead, and if a submissive wants to enter that lifestyle, they have to abide by the dominant's requirements.
Also, not all D/s relationships are SO relationships. If a submissive took the time to be honest, and not think from a cloud of lust, they would not take up with a Dom/me thinking they will change him or her. It is not about a marriage, it is not about a conventional one-on one relationship.

As for fun on the side, any dominant worth his or her salt will tell you training and dominating subs is hard work.

It's highly probable that if you were to take a group of subs aside one by one and ask them what they thought about doms being able to see another person while they weren't, they would think it was highly unfair.

I only see that in regards to femsubs. Male submissives are not so naive in that they feel they will be the "one and only" in their Dominant's life. They make sure they have a clear understanding of the dynamics before they submit. Only 1 out of 10 males subs I talk to think they will be the only sub in a Domme's life. I set them straight, and if they cannot handle it, I wish them a good day and a good life.


Ask that same group what they thought if both people in the relationship could see others and they just might find no problem with that. Again, it's just human nature.

I do not think human nature enters into play here. Is is possible that it might, but in my experience I have not found it to be so.

However, I deal exclusively with male subs. It is all about honesty. No sub should submit to a Dom/me who has different expectations. And likewise no dominant should take a sub who is not capable of living the lifestyle he or she wants.

I think that some subs want to have their cake and eat it too.

If you are going to submit, make sure you know what you are doing. If you want a conventional relationship with kink, then be honest about it, but don't whine about what your dominant can or cannot do. Remember, you can always leave and find someone more to your liking.
 
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catalina_francisco said:
Thanks for all the ideas and sharing of thoughts, it has been interesting. I agree with some, not so much with others. I agree with Croctden it is a matter of communicating and exploring the feelings and thoughts of each other. I think any relationship that has elements of promise deserves this, but also agree it should never be about remodelling the person to become what you think they should be or suits your purposes alone. That to me is not only asking for disaster at some later, if not sooner date, but is also seriously interferring with the psychological and emotional welfare of your SO.

From people I have read and listened to on the subject of jealousy, I think it is one of those areas many feel better burying and/or disguising as something else. I also think it does often have a double standard, not just in BDSM, but also vanilla relationships. Perhaps the real issue is where does that jealousy evolve from...is it possessiveness, insecurity, fear, agression, passion, all the above, or something else entirely? Does it have a common element for all, or is each individual instance independent of the other?

Catalina
Click to expand...

I think that it's easy to forget that even those in BDSM relationships are relatively normal people. You can't run from normal issues. There are going to be fights, bad days, cheating, breakups, and so on. Any relationship will take work if you want it to be strong.
 
Re: In my not so humble opinion

Ebonyfire said:
A submissive needs to know the reality of a Dom/me expectations on how the relationship should go. If they do not like it, they can choose another Dom/me.
Click to expand...
i agree with this, and tried to say something similar, though it didn't quite sound the same.

Oh really? that sounds like vanilla (conventional) thinking to me. if a submissive wants a monogamous relationship, he or she should look for a hubsband or wife.

Greed has nothing to do with it. Ownership does. A dominant chooses the lifestyle he or she wants to lead, and if a submissive wants to enter that lifestyle, they have to abide by the dominant's requirements.
Click to expand...
As i've said before, i'm still relatively new to the lifestyle. Everything i've learned so far has to have some sort of parallel in the vanilla world to make any sort of sense in my mind. That's one of my admitted downfalls and why i usually don't post here.

i still think that greed does play a part, though. If somebody has something they don't want to share, they are often seen as being greedy and/or clingy. If a person sees something that somebody else has that they want, but the other person won't share, they label that other person as greedy. It all comes down to wants and needs. That extends to the jealousy factor in a D/s relationship. A dom or sub doesn't necessarily want to share because the other person is 'their' dom/sub (quite literally, with the dom owning the sub). Yes, a dominant's wants and needs do count for more, but a sub's wants and needs play some part in things. If it's important for either the dom or sub to have a monogamous relationship it should be stated clearly from the beginning as one of the major requirements for that particular relationship to work out. If it's not agreed on from the beginning, that's a good sign the relationship won't work out, and gives the people involved a chance to go find somebody else.

Also, not all D/s relationships are SO relationships. If a submissive took the time to be honest, and not think from a cloud of lust, they would not take up with a Dom/me thinking they will change him or her. It is not about a marriage, it is not about a conventional one-on one relationship.
Click to expand...
Again, with my very limited experience, i've personally only seen SO relationships that included the D/s lifestyle. These have been built over the years on mutual respect and gradual changes in both people involved to suit the other. The subs in these cases didn't get into the relationships to change the doms. It just happened over time by a series of compromises based on the brutal honesty needed in their relationships.

As for fun on the side, any dominant worth his or her salt will tell you training and dominating subs is hard work.
Click to expand...
Can't argue with you there. ;) i've been told it's a lot like raising kids. Poor you!

I only see that in regards to femsubs. Male submissives are not so naive in that they feel they will be the "one and only" in their Dominant's life. They make sure they have a clear understanding of the dynamics before they submit. Only 1 out of 10 males subs I talk to think they will be the only sub in a Domme's life. I set them straight, and if they cannot handle it, I wish them a good day and a good life.

*snip*

However, I deal exclusively with male subs. It is all about honesty. No sub should submit to a Dom/me who has different expectations. And likewise no dominant should take a sub who is not capable of living the lifestyle he or she wants.
Click to expand...
You've got the upper hand here yet again. You have more experience than i do, and have dealt with male subs. i never have. However, i think we're actually trying to say pretty much the same thing and just not understanding each other (my fault).

You're absolutely right in saying that the relationship needs to be based on honesty and that there should be a very clear understanding of everything involved. That's why things like this need to be gone over before any sort of serious relationship gets started. That's also why any concerns that come up along the way should be brought up - by any person involved. Nothing necessarily HAS to be done to change anything, but it often helps a sub feel better to at least be able to voice an opinion. The dom ideally should listen to any and all concerns that pop up, consider them seriously, and possibly make any compromises that need to be made. Granted, the sub in the situation will need to change more than the dom, but that goes with the territory. If a compromise can't be found it's time to break off the relationship.

i didn't mean for it to sound as if it's all right for the sub to keep whining and nagging about something, unless it's done in a playful way and everybody involved knows it's more of a joke than anything else. i was trying to say that when jealousy comes up it needs to be discussed in as an adult a manner as possible.
 
Re: Re: In my not so humble opinion

Be that as it may...

Greed and jealousy are vanilla concepts in my mind, and have no place in My D/s relationships.

Greed comes into play when you think in sexual terms. Not all D/s or BDSM relationships start as hotbeds of sexual neediness.

My point is this, a sub gives himself up to be owned and that means he does not have the freedom to do as he pleases. Male subs find it easier to not worry about what their Dom/me is doing, or even who he or she is doing, as long as they can serve.

It seems to Me many jealous subs are too consumed with being served and getting their kink on. And that is not to My liking.

It is less about greed, and more about POWER.
 
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Croctden said:
I think that it's easy to forget that even those in BDSM relationships are relatively normal people. You can't run from normal issues. There are going to be fights, bad days, cheating, breakups, and so on. Any relationship will take work if you want it to be strong.
Click to expand...

Cheating is not an issue in a functioning D/s relationship. If the relationship is truthful, there is no need to cheat. The sub knows his place, and he either accepts it, or he moves on.
 
catalina_francisco said:
Can't say I agree with the 'class' classification of jealousy. I have lived with people who basically live their lives on the street, and they have felt jealousy was a negative emotion most did not want to admit to, especially women, because nine times out of ten they were put down or punished in some way for exhibiting, and naming, jealousy as such.

I could not agree with you more and that is what my previous post was alluding to. Most people see it as a very unattractive emotion, therefore few want to claim feeling it.

As for it being seen by some as a sign of love, or complimentary, this in part is sometimes true.....Many, women especially, through socialisation and environmental factors are prone to initially see a partner's displays and declarations of jealousy as love or complimentary of her worth as a partner.

And if a woman sees acts of jealousy on the part of her SO or Dom, as a declaration of love, do you not agree that she really views herself as having little worth?
Click to expand...
 
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