historical roles vs female submission

Ok, so thread title may be a little fail, I couldn't quite think how to put it.

Ages ago, I saw the 'Good Wife Guide', supposedly taken from a 1950's womans mag. Though this has been proven false, there are a few books from the time with similar advice and rules of ettiquette.

http://j-walk.com/other/goodwife/index.htm

What I'd like to know is, do any of you do these things, behave these ways, and why?
For the Doms, do you have subs that behave like this, are these requirements you have in place, or do you find it weird and old-fashioned?

As a wider question, what does this say about female subs and the progress of feminism?

(this are serious attempt at thread, I are serious thread starter :grin: )

I'll be back to discuss this after work.

I don't have "requirements". Anything having to do with lists and contracts strikes me as goofy. I just like nice traditional sex roles and old fashioned household discipline by mean of the strop.

* Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they get home and the prospect of a good meal is part of the warm welcome needed.

I do this.
It seems to me just an obvious thing, especially if I have been the one at home (I still did and do it even if I'm the one that has been out. Preparing meal is just my role.)

* Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.

I guess I could do it, if I was a stay at home wife, now that the kids are older.
But I'll pass on the ribbon in my hair. LOL

* Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.

Always with a smile

* Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables.

No comment on this one ... clutter is my weakness ...

* During the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering to his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.

Does turn on the heater counts?

* Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.

Impossible.

* Be happy to see him.

Always!

* Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.

Almost always.

* Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

Try to, although I do not agree on his topics are more important than mine per se.


* Don't greet him with complaints and problems.

Depends on the problems, but I try not to.

* Don't complain if he's late for dinner or even if he stays out all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through at work.

No problem, as far as I get a phone call.

* Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or lie him down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.

The bed is always ready and his favorite chair is always free.

* Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

Not Applicable (Japanese house AND I'm Italian ... )

* Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.

This is probably the most controversial of the rules.

* A good wife always knows her place.

And a good husband too


******

If the wife does not work outside the house, the practical rules, seems to me mostly common sense and a loving wife's actions. Without the power exchange, I would remove the "pleasing him will make you happy" connotation and the mandatory aspect of them.

The most controversial is the " You have no right to question him."

Even in a TPE, I believe that there are instances when the pyl has the right to question the PYL orders and decisions. What the pyl has no right to question, is the PYL's Dominance or Power, however asking explanations for orders or decisions that seem strange or out of character should be reasonable.

It is the PYL's right to explain himself or not. But I'd hope that if we are talking decisions that will heavily impact the life of the pyl, the PYL will explain himself.

I understand that for some TPE relationship, the above is probably unacceptable.

As for what does it say about "female subs" and "progress of feminism", I'd say that being a sub is a choice like another, staying at home VS working outside the home, is also a choice like another. If the women are truly free to choose what best fits them, then I'll say that feminism has been successful.

rida said:

* Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

Not Applicable (Japanese house AND I'm Italian ... )

Click to expand...

Too funny!

Ha, that thing was 'supposedly' written on my birthday, only 26 years too early.


The funny thing I find with this, is the tone. It's so condecending, all 'well, little lady' etc, but I think a lot of these things are common, unwritten basics in a D/s relationship.

It's all part of paying attention to the little things to make his life easier. The small, unthinking things you do to take care of his needs. They get to be anticipatory, reflexive after a time.

I tend to really like doing those things, it gives me a buzz. And it gives me a definite thrill when he notices that I've noticed.

And things like getting myself ready.. well I do that already. He noticed that I was having a hard time transitioning out of work headspace to his girl headspace, so devised a routine for me to follow when I got home, to help me get ready. And after a few attempts, I nailed it, and after a few more I'd find that simply making myself ready for him sunk me into that space quite easily. It's a nice feeling.

He's a traditional kind of guy as well. I have no doubt that if we were living together, we'd sink even further into those 1950s roles. I really would like it too, if I was less domestically challenged! I'm a firm believer of traditional roles, with a few tweaks.

I'm not going to touch the feminism issue with a 10 foot pole. I don't know enough to go there.

I have no set of requirements in place, I just happen to be old-fashioned and attracted to simiarly-minded women. My girlfriend cooks and cleans, not because I force her but because she automatically assumed the role of caring for the house when we moved in together. Not that these things go hand in hand, but she almost excusively wears dresses, is very polite and modest in mixed company, and more or less obeys my wishes. In private is when she's more comfortable speaking her mind and I like that; it's as though she saves it for me (however I realize it's more about being shy than anything else). Yes, I get off on the fact that she cleans up after and cooks for me. I get off on knowing she wears high heels all day even though they may not be comfortable. I get off on knowing she (usually) bites her tongue when she has the urge to disagree with or disobey me in public even when she doesn't want to. But are these things a requirement for her? No. She can fight me all she wants -- but she'll have to pay for it in the end (which is perfectly wonderful).

Is there a Good Husband Guide? Especially for those of us who work full-time outside the home and whose husband are the stay at home partner?

When I did stay-at-home full time my children were babies and I had PPD. Hubby was lucky if there was food in the refrigerator. My babies were well cared for but the house?? Hell no.

Throughout our 24 year long marriage there has only been one reoccurring argument and that has been the division of household chores and duties. I hate housework with a passion. I will do it because it needs to be done but I expect everyone in the house to help out--hubby and kids included.

I don't live with my PYL so fortunately we don't have to deal with this issue. Being solely responsible for housework would be a hard-limit for me.

FloggingMolly said:

Ok, so thread title may be a little fail, I couldn't quite think how to put it.

Ages ago, I saw the 'Good Wife Guide', supposedly taken from a 1950's womans mag. Though this has been proven false, there are a few books from the time with similar advice and rules of ettiquette.

http://j-walk.com/other/goodwife/index.htm

What I'd like to know is, do any of you do these things, behave these ways, and why?
For the Doms, do you have subs that behave like this, are these requirements you have in place, or do you find it weird and old-fashioned?

As a wider question, what does this say about female subs and the progress of feminism?

Click to expand...

good thread topic Eva!

yes, i do many of those things listed, and many other similar duties each day for my Master. i do it because it is my duty, my place and my purpose to do so. breaking down each of those things individually...my duties are my job, the nitty gritty tasks and responsibilities in life. my place is my status, which is his slave. and my life's purpose is to serve and please him. this cannot be overstated...this is the core meaning of my life and my continued reason for being.

so with all that being the case, doing whatever is required to keep him content, from the mundane to the extreme, is rather a given.

what does this say about female subs and the progress of feminism? well i have no idea, lol. frankly, i am not a feminist and find many of the core feminist ideals distasteful and frightening. unlike rida i do not believe in the "choice" concept. my submissiveness is not a choice, it just is. i did not choose to be submissive any more than i chose to have brown skin and eyes.

feminism preaches a woman taking control of her life, of her destiny, and choosing the path which is right for her. i just do not feel it is that simple. one cannot choose to be a submissive the way one can choose to be a nurse or geologist, imo. what i believe is that one should follow one's true nature, which may mean a life of beauty and joy, or could mean a life of endless sacrifice and suffering. there is too much selfish focus on "happiness" these days, imo. do what makes you happy, they say. look out for number one. these are ideals with which i vehemently disagree.

and then there is the cavegirl wiring in me, which believes in some rather archaic gender roles. i am not talking 1950s Goodwife, but a way of life much more ancient and basic. i believe that male and female are different for a reason, that we should respect these differences and that there is great beauty in theses differences. i feel males and females should complement one another, not compete with one another. this does not mean that i feel all females are naturally submissive, or all men naturally dominant. at least not as most here would think of the terms. it means that we all have our respective roles in life, and these are at core not things we can consciously choose.

Well, if you mean the feminist ideal, the whole idea is that men and women can make their own choices without being limited by their sex. As far as D/s roles, that's perfectly fine, as long as it just as easily applies to a female PYL and a male pyl.

Now, if you're talking about some of the psycho bitches that claim to be feminist, it's horrible because it doesn't do anything to promote women's quest as a group to claim the vast majority of the money and power, regardless of whether they deserve it or not.

We're bohemian space cadets who don't pay much attention to sex roles. I work more hours than he does, they happen to be from home. It would be nice to obsess over the little things, but we're both playing cash quest at this point - it's not that everything goes ignored, but it's sidelined a bit out of sheer necessity.

I've started taking out the garbage because it makes him feel more like the girl, and we like that, that's really the only major gender issue with day to day stuff I can think of offhand. I like gruntwork housework, taking out garbage, scrubbing bathrooms - the grody stuff that makes a difference. He likes dishes and anal retentive organiztional stuff. Neither of us have as much TIME as a perfectly tidy homestead demands.

I do find that there's a LOT of wisdom to letting a guy, even one as feminine as mine, DE-COMPRESS when he comes across that work threshold. It's got nothing to do with being a good little woman, but if you want to avoid a good 25 percent of your stupid fights, saying nothing at all other than hi for about 20 minutes after his arrival from work - whether you yourself work, even if you both work at the same place - 20 minutes without shop talk, complaint, or anything at all - does wonders.

Female brain wants to reconnect - whether you're the scent marking lead meerkat or the eager little pup - male brain wants to shift from one compartment to the next. I'd rather display my power in the sheets. I have to be selective with my time.

As for the communication advice in there, it's a great way to create long term fifties marriages like my grandparents'. Between people who tolerate each other, can't stand each other, and don't even know each other and never talk about anything of pertinence. Sex is for babies only, and children's problems don't exist. Sounds super. It's like it's decent advice for a lot of the wrong reasons, and telling someone to *delay* her communication rather than suppress it would change it from ridiculous to savvy for me.

FloggingMolly said:

For the Doms, do you have subs that behave like this, are these requirements you have in place, or do you find it weird and old-fashioned?

Click to expand...

~smile~

I've never had a beloved who needed a list to tell her how to be thoughtful, and as all of my beloveds have worked, housework et al is a responsibility that is/was shared equally.

Being raised by a single mother in the 70's I was never taught to be sexist.

Monday my Beloved had a stressful journey ahead of her. I did garbage, dishes, laundry and tidied the house while letting her sleep in, so we'd have uninterrupted quality time together before I drove her to the bus station.

She returns today

Loving relationships focus more on being thoughtful than being ritualistic. As I am thoughful of her, so my Beloved is thoughtful of me. For Love we give our best to each other, and learn to do/be better so that we may give better.

As a wider question, what does this say about female subs and the progress of feminism?

Click to expand...

There was a lady I dated before I met my wife. The lady was very much involved in the feminist movement, all of her friends were feminists.

She had a difficult time accepting her need to be submissive in a relationship.

She told me that feminism was supposed to be about liberating women to be whatever they wanted to be, even if what they wanted to be was the "traditional housewife" or a bdsm submissive.

However, her friends were more of the opinion that feminism meant a woman should compete with men on an equal footing, and that financial success in the business world was the measure by which feminism should be judged.

In other words, it was okay for a woman to be a domme, but not a submissive.

Eventually they gave her enough grief about the nature of our relationship that she ended it.

It is my opinion that the traits that make up dominance or submission are not gender-related. Nor is anyone strictly limited to submission or dominance. I can be very submissive when a cop is handing me a speeding ticket, and it usually results in a reduction of the fine. I am very dominant when the safety of my family is at stake.

Within a loving relationship I am naturally dominant, but in a very laid-back, easy-going kind of way. I never lose sight of the fact my Beloved is my equal, that her submission is a gift to me, inspired by the love and trust she feels for me based on the way I love her and respect her. She is free to change her mind, end the relationship, whatever she chooses.

It is because she is free to leave that her choice to stay has meaning.

I wouldn't have it any other way. I only want what she gives me freely, inspired by her love.

BLoved said:

In other words, it was okay for a woman to be a domme, but not a submissive.

Click to expand...

I keep hearing this. Uninformed BS. Unless you think that workplace equality and emphasis makes a woman a Domme in which case you're showing complete ignorance, but it's shared by a lot of people. For a lot of people any woman who's not a submissive is a Domme, which is laughable.

For the record it is not OK to be in anything but a relationship of equals in this kind of feminist paradigm.

Everything else is "dysfunctional" No sane woman wants to control her partner or inflict pain.

Your favorite epithet.

I would say it's common courtesy to let your partner, male or female, take some time to unwind once he or she returns home from work. My girlfriend needs that time possibly even more than I do when I get home (though she was recently promoted and works longer hours). With very few exceptions I give her half an hour to switch gears before I start demanding dinner/beer/sex; and those exceptions are more or less limited to the few times I've discovered a task/duty of hers that had been overlooked or ignored, or the rare instance when we find something to fight about in the morning before work and I've been stewing all day. And even when that happens, upon entering the apartment she's usually met with a slap or spanking, and is then allowed her usual time to relax.

I don't know -- those 30 minutes when I first get home are so sacred to me that I can't imagine anyone not craving/needing it. And really I think it's a crime to deny that time to a person (not that anyone here does). Call me passionate.

unknooown said:

I would say it's common courtesy to let your partner, male or female, take some time to unwind once he or she returns home from work. My girlfriend needs that time possibly even more than I do when I get home (though she was recently promoted and works longer hours). With very few exceptions I give her half an hour to switch gears before I start demanding dinner/beer/sex; and those exceptions are more or less limited to the few times I've discovered a task/duty of hers that had been overlooked or ignored, or the rare instance when we find something to fight about in the morning before work and I've been stewing all day. And even when that happens, upon entering the apartment she's usually met with a slap or spanking, and is then allowed her usual time to relax.

I don't know -- those 30 minutes when I first get home are so sacred to me that I can't imagine anyone not craving/needing it. And really I think it's a crime to deny that time to a person (not that anyone here does). Call me passionate.

Click to expand...

Once I got the hang of this and made it part of my life, believe me I'm not crying over it.

Netzach said:

I keep hearing this. Uninformed BS. Unless you think that workplace equality and emphasis makes a woman a Domme in which case you're showing complete ignorance, but it's shared by a lot of people.

For the record it is not OK to be in anything but a relationship of equals in this kind of feminist paradigm.

Everything else is "dysfunctional" No sane woman wants to control her partner or inflict pain.

Your favorite epithet.

Click to expand...

A relationship of equals was the paradigm my mother taught me in the '70's, and it is still my paradigm.

The paradigm of the women who were friends to the lady I dated is as I described.

Their concept of a liberated man was one who deferred to the opinion of women, essentially, a submissive man.

And I agree, their attitude towards men and women was dysfunctional.

BLoved said:

A relationship of equals was the paradigm my mother taught me in the '70's, and it is still my paradigm.

The paradigm of the women who were friends to the lady I dated is as I described.

Their concept of a liberated man was one who deferred to the opinion of women, essentially, a submissive man.

And I agree, their attitude towards men and women was dysfunctional.

Click to expand...

I don't believe you. I don't know any women who would espouse this viewpoint and articulate it directly, I've never met any in my life, yet you wandered into a female supremacist enclave somehow?

I've met vanilla women who roll their eyes and think all men are stupid and useless because their husbands are.

I've met hardcore feminists who can't handle the thought of a lesbian who likes to use a strap on with her gf because it's patriarchal.

I've never met a group of self-professed feminists who actually believe that a man's place is - well what this article intimates is a woman's place. Outside of specific FemDom circles that frankly, bore me.

I believe you spent as much time actually talking to her friends as you have casual SM players in real life. And you seem to have extremely poor reading comprehension or very selective - I said that second wave feminism believes that there is NO ROOM FOR POWER EXHANGE IN A RELATIONSHIP and those that embrace it ARE DYSFUNCTIONAL. As in your "love-based BDSM" bubba, just as much as whatever it is I like.

I believe that she had friends who thought her kind of doormatty for doing whatever she was doing and criticized her and she didn't have the 'nads to do it anyway and tell them to screw off.

That's not their fault. They're not her prison wardens, they're just assorted people she CHOSE to listen to.

Netzach said:

I don't believe you. I don't know any women who would espouse this viewpoint and articulate it directly, I've never met any in my life, yet you wandered into a female supremacist enclave somehow?

Click to expand...

~smile~

Would you like to hijack this thread so you can accuse me of being a liar?

The lady I dated and I discussed this topic quite often, and she told me of their attitudes.

Only one friend supported her, a lesbian who later invited me to give a lecture to her pedagogy class at Ryerson University.

Yes, I think it is a shame that she let the other friends influence her enough to end the relationship. However, had events not unfolded as they did I might not have known I was wrong for her, and she for me.

The woman I met after her, I married.

On the original question, I do -some- of these things.

I make food, but not necessarily ready when he gets home (hourly employee, seriously, who wants an actual mean at 3 in the afternoon?) Nights when he works late, 10-11 pm, no, he doesn't have food ready and waiting for him. I have to feed me and the boy before then, so when he gets home I'm normally ready to reheat whatever was eaten, but it's not like I'm going to deny my body its food needs or cook twice, once for my son and once for my husband, if whatever is being made can be reeated without issue.

Depending on the day, 'preparing myself' doesn't happen. No, I don't work outside of our home, but I'm pregnant, mother to a toddler, and do work for income from within my home. Honestly, considering I'm a cam performer, he's a bit weirded out if I look good when he gets back. Assumes it isn't for him, etc, so c'est la vie.

Be gay and more interesting? We're gamers, trust me, it's just as much a mood lift to see his wife sitting and painting Warhammer minis or cussing out a console game as it is to be perky and sugarcoat the day to him.

Clutter? Cleaning? Again, gamers, our house has a constant layer of miniatures, cards, character sheets, paints, whatever on some surfaces. That is their home. Yeah, I'll do a quick run through to pick up kid toys, clothes, or whatever else has gotten to the point of being a hazard while he was away so he has some idea of what to expect and where it is, but he does the same for me.

Skipping the fire thing. Noise issues, again, impractical. Things must get done, and since he's hourly, if he happens to come home during the normal dishes, laundry, or kid play time, so be it. He actually likes coming home and seeing me involved in domestic chores, and if he asks for the noise level to go down due to a bad day, it can be arranged, but that is the exception and not the rule.

I'm (almost) always happy to see him, and he normally gets at least a smile.

Listening? What is this listening? Ok, Ok, yes, I listen, but if his statement for the day involves working with idiots, and mine involves why the son is bandaged, I think I win on who talks first, thanks.

Greet with complaints or problems: Not unless it has been bothering me all day and if I keep biting my tongue I'll go off on the deep end.

Stays out all night/late? I may complain if I don't get at least a call. I'm not good with worrying.

Make him comfy... Does a Mt Dew, game controller, and his chair count?

Pillow arrangement and shoes... Uh.. No. He has the most messed up feet I've ever seen due to some chemical exposure when he was young and since me messing with them is likely to crack skin or such if it's a really bad outbreak thing, I'll just let him take care of this one. As for pillows, just non issue

Not questioning him... Doesn't happen. I know he has issues with money management, so I'll question him if he wants gaming stuff before the bills are paid. If I think he is being to hard on the kid over something I'll bring it up later. But to just all out let him completely rule? No, sorry, I'm to paranoid, and I know him a bit to well.

While this list may make it sound like my husband is completely neglected, overruled, or not served, that is not the case. I believe in common, and mutual, courtesy. I'll go fetch things, or help with whatever his projects are, but while he is the dominant partner in our relationship, I'm far from a 50's housewife. We do what works for us, and while most people find our life a bit of a throwback, everyone involved is fine with it. They aren't specific duties or lists, they are what I do to make his life easier, more comfortable, and orderly, without creating unneeded stress in my own.

As for feminism, I choose to live as I do, and the only people who give me grief over it are women, so who's trying to affect my ability to live as I choose? I work enough to cover my spending habits and help with the bills, if I chose to I could kick his ass income wise, but I'd rather spend time with my son and husband, and make sure that they are taken care of.

I don't think it's anti-feminist, by any means, as the basis or the feminist argument is that women shouldn't -have- to do this. I don't have to, I do it because I like to, and it works for us. When I work and he doesn't, he does better as a house wife than I do. I've come home from a 'real' job before to find my kiddo tanned from spending the day at the park, all my dishes done, the laundry done, and my house pretty well immaculate. I was honestly speechless and about fell over. I think it all just comes down to having the options either way, in my understanding of feminism. In my house, I do. It's not demanded or expected, but I see no reason why I shouldn't take care of my family, and if a militant feminist somewhere has something to say about it, I can quite calmly tell them to kiss my ass, I opted in.


...At some point I really have to learn to say things more succinctly, sorry :s

As a militant feminist myself, I will stand up and proclaim that any woman's choice to be submissive is her choice. And that any way she and her Dom choose to enact her submission is their choice.

And I will kick the ass of anyone who says different.

Stella_Omega said:

As a militant feminist myself, I will stand up and proclaim that any woman's choice to be submissive is her choice. And that any way she and her Dom choose to enact her submission is their choice.

And I will kick the ass of anyone who says different.

Click to expand...

i say different. i do not believe submissiveness is a choice, it is a personality trait. so do i bend over now or later for my butt kicking?

It's like "is being queer biology or choice?"

I say it's completely irrelevant. Those who can't be any other way and were born it and use that as the reason it should be OK are missing the point.

If it's a choice, it's one one is entitled to make. If it's the way your are and you can't help it, you should be left alone to be it. But it might not be inborn for everyone and it might not be a choice for everyone and either way it shouldn't matter.

People are the experts on themselves.

ownedsubgal said:

i say different. i do not believe submissiveness is a choice, it is a personality trait. so do i bend over now or later for my butt kicking?

Click to expand...

I don't kick, I use a paddle. And then my hands.

Oh my, so many responses

I'll reply properly tomorrow, when my mind is more in gear.

ownedsubgal said:

what does this say about female subs and the progress of feminism? well i have no idea, lol. frankly, i am not a feminist and find many of the core feminist ideals distasteful and frightening. unlike rida i do not believe in the "choice" concept. my submissiveness is not a choice, it just is. i did not choose to be submissive any more than i chose to have brown skin and eyes.

Click to expand...

Netzach said it better, but I'll give it a crack.

More then feminism or not, what I'd like is for human being to be free to follow their nature or their choices, when it comes to their sexuality, careers, type of relationships, and so forth.