Christianity - Rewiring my Brain

This is a shot in the dark, and boy is it a big one. I put this thread at risk for huge arguments, fighting, trolling, etc. It's better to try anyway.

I grew up Christian and went to church. I had Jesus and God hammered into my head for 25+ years. I could tell you an entire life story, but to get straight to the point, I lost my faith about 2 months ago. Let me be very clear, for years I was losing interest in any kind of church activity, praying, bible reading, etc. I never cared to do it. Because of this, I was warned that maybe I wasn't *truly* a Christian and maybe I would still burn in hell. After all, I basically just lived my life normally and labeled myself as a Christian just for the purpose of not dying and going to hell.

Well, it took a very long time, but I finally came to the conclusion that for me to come to peace about my life and for me to understand my problems with depression, I was going to have to understand where some of my fear came from. I needed to realize that no amount of begging to an invisible man in the sky would help me. I was alone in my struggle. As sad as that is, it made sense to me and it gave me a sense of urgency that I needed to fix me and not wait for a deity to fix it.

So what's my problem? Well, I still struggle every day and I can't let go of thoughts of possibly making a mistake. I'm constantly thinking "What if I'm making a mistake and these Christians are right?" This honestly feels like something I will struggle with my entire life almost like a prison sentence. I've done the research, watched countless Youtube videos of famous physicists and atheists. Non-stop, I am trying to find peace with finally being able to separate myself from religion, and it's really fucking hard. It brings out a lot of emotion. I'm angry, sad, and just fighting a battle against my own self.

Pascal's Wager is my toughest fight yet. For those who don't know, it's the idea that there are only two options. If the Christian is wrong, what's the worst that could happen? They'd just die and nothing. If the atheist is wrong, they obviously are going to burn in hell for eternity. I understand that it's a false dichotomy because there are not just two potential options after death. What if some other God is real and we lived the wrong religion. The concept of hell is still a difficult obstacle in my path to freedom, though.

Let me know if you have any experience with this and if you can help. I do *not* want to be convinced that I'm going through a trial from God. Fuck that. In my opinion, if God does exist, he's a real asshole.

There's a lot of emotion in that post. I'm glad you posted it in this forum (it seems much friendlier) where I think it stands a chance of leading to discussion.

For me personally, I was raised to be a Christian but never felt it. As an adult, at a young age, I finally felt free to explore other faith systems including nontheism. Atheism felt right. During my adult life, I have been very active in local Humanist groups, part of a social community that does a lot of good (volunteering at homeless shelters, cleaning up parks and roads, charity fundraisers and walks), things like that. Having a community was the only thing I missed from church and I found it in this group of likeminded people.

As to Pascal's Wager, if you don't know how you believe, I can see how it would be a struggle. If you truly have no faith in a higher power, this is a non-issue, you aren't trying to be right or win an argument against yourself. If you aren't sure, you're just not sure yet.

BabblingBrooke said:

For me personally, I was raised to be a Christian but never felt it.

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This. I have happy memories of attending church with my grandma but unhappy memories of what went on there, particularly WRT judgment of people who "weren't like us." What I learned was that if an afterlife exists, I have no desire to share it with most "Christians" out there, and the behavior of Christians when my town was involved in a church-state separation issue a couple of years ago only strengthened my resolve.

I consider myself a mostly-apathetic agnostic atheist who has occasional anti-theist moments, and my husband and I are raising secular (not atheist) children. Through social media, I was able to connect with people like me, which is a huge deal because I live on the fringes of the Bible Belt in Bumfuck, Ohio.

I was raised as a Catholic and was forced to believe that if I didn't go to mass on sunday I would go to hell when I was hit by a truck on monday morning....Guilt was the basis of everything. I should feel guilty if I didn't follow the rules perfectly. I should feel guilty if I enjoyed sex and I was indoctrinated to feel that I was unworthy of a full life. I realize that things have change with Catholic teachings albeit only a slight change. But it all comes down to GUILT.....they seem to have hit you right in the chest with it.
Start with the fact that you are a good person and that you deserve to be happy. Care about the people around you and be true to yourself. That's it! Bottom line. Be very cautious with people who quote the Bible.I can twist the scripture as well as the next guy.
Most people seem to need a "broker" between their mind and their God. I happen to believe that my faith or lack of is between me and my God.
Bottom line: Stop worrying about finding the right broker and be true to yourself and the people around you.
End of rant.....

Whatever you decide as far as belief, understand that having doubts is more than reasonable and not in and of itself troublesome. Blind faith tends to be more problematic, in my view.

I haven't read DSM V, but DSM-IV has a dx for 'excessive religiosity.' These labels change according to politics in that field, but the concepts remain.

Understand that all human behavior is on some sort of a spectrum from none to lots. What works for one, is a problem for another.

Religiosity in and of itself is not necessarily a problem. It sounds like it might be for you if you were immersed in a culture like that. Most likely, if you will consider, you are fairly polarized in your thinking about non religious subjects as well. Polarized thinking simply means you don't see many things as gray. Things are right or wrong, good or bad, holy or evil, wonderful or horrible.

I suggest that that is probably the root of the problem for you. Perhaps when being self critical, try to grade your behavior a bit on a continuum, and less as heaven or hell.

I had a conversation with an itinerant preacher once. He was lifelong single and not celibate. I asked him how he reconciled that. He points out that (his) God says in the scriptures that he does not look upon the smallest sin as different than the largest sin. I forget the passage, but I knew it from my own youth.

Anyway, in my youth, I took that to mean you have to be perfect, because even the smallest sin and you are cut off from God. His take was refreshing. He said that it means that the big sins and the little sins are all part of the exact same human condition of error and imperfection. It is the point of human experience to work on ones sins. The big ones and the little ones, but you don't get extra credit for keeping away from the "big" ones and being cavalier about racking up a huge, unconcerned count on the so-called little ones.

Faith in walking with God for him was leading an examined life and considering each day what corrections one can make in that day towards living a more perfect, but still highly imperfect life.

Back to the idea of polarized thinking, examine how critical are you when you fail to meet your own expectations. Do you allow yourself to celebrate incremental progress towards being what to you, feels like becoming a better person? Is it all or nothing?

The way I choose to look at the concept of sin is that I was taught that righteous living produces happiness and wickedness produces angst. I try and separate remnants of childhood concepts of "wrong" leading to unreasonable or disproportionate guilt and examine whether a particular habit or activity makes me happy.

I mean happy in a Zen like way. Plenty of things feel good in the moment, and if there is an actual cost to me or others that is put off to the future that has to be factored in.

My father passed a couple of years ago and before he did my brother, a lay minister of sorts at the time in addition to his professional life, asked him how he felt about faith and such. My father reported that he was ready as he could be, and felt he had lived an acceptable life, given his own strengths and weaknesses. So my brother who immersed himself pretty deeply in Japanese culture and lived there a while asks him, sort of joking, "What if you get over to the other side and the Buddhists are right?" Dad's response was, "They will give me a pass because I did the best I could according to what I knew."

The fact you are asking questions is noble, in my view.

Religion is stupid. It's for the weak minded.

Bible Thumpers are the lowest of the low and often among the least ethical.


Then there are those with gargantuan images in their signatures.

You've already pointed out the most obvious flaw in Pascal's Wager yourself, but there's another one as well; its never helpful to negotiate with terrorists.

If god is threatening you into worshiping him with the threat of hell, then god is a terrorist. The correct course of action is to not give into his demands, and encourage others to not give in to his demands, and he will be forced to abandon eternal damnation as a disincentive as it is no longer working (and perhaps even driving people away from him instead of the opposite).

I'm firmly convinced that if we could just eliminate religion completely, the World would be a much better place.

This whole 'my God's better'n your God' is what causes most of the problems.

Hypocrisy

I am saddened by your suffering. I carried that burden for many years myself. I was raised Catholic, but finally became an apostate because of the incredible hypocrisy of what Christians SAY and what they do. This includes all denominations.

(By the way, have you noticed that "let us exchange the sign of peace" thing in the Catholic mass ends as soon as you walk out the church door?)

"Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" is their tag line, their excuse for doing all manner of bad behavior. Over and over and over. I'm at the point where if you tell me you're a Christian I'm assuming you'll stab me in the back.

Look at Bristol Palin, the Duggars, and oh, you want to talk about evangelists?

https://letmetellyouthis.wordpress.com/tag/list-of-christian-evangelist-scandals/

Burning in hell? Bullshit. I believe in the saying God is love, and he who abides in love, abides in him. Love your neighbor, help those less fortunate, be ethical in your business, (all that stuff Christians are supposed to do but most don't) and it will be fine.

You want to rewire your brain? Look around you. Gandhi said "Show me a Christian and I'll become one". I have to agree with him.

I'm an atheist

I refuse to believe in a religion invented by man to shape the world and explain it

Does that impact on my ability to do good? No. I am conscious of my desire and will to do right by people. I gave up one lucrative career to work in a poorly paid environment where I can make a difference.

If your man-defined religion condemns me to burn in hell because I don't follow prescribed archaic rituals than how does that equate to the "God is love" tenet

Religion is scripted hypocrisy IMHO

Same as you, I went to, or to be honest, was dragged to church every Sunday growing up. For 20 years until I moved out it was mandatory to go and in all that time it just never made sense to me. I've read the Bible cover to cover and it's the most violent thing I've ever read.

I just have no use for it and you don't need religion to be a good person. I think it's awful that they say you should worship God so he won't send you to a fiery pit when you die. Fear should not be a motivator for anything.

Where's the love?

^^ And right after I got back home on those mornings, I'd go downstairs and play with the HO Train and race car sets with their little villiages and people and think, this must be how "He" does it!!!!

Getting rid of religion is a nice idea that could be wonderful but then what would all the psych professionals do.....?

Yasuo_ said:

Pascal's Wager is my toughest fight yet. For those who don't know, it's the idea that there are only two options. If the Christian is wrong, what's the worst that could happen? They'd just die and nothing. If the atheist is wrong, they obviously are going to burn in hell for eternity. I understand that it's a false dichotomy because there are not just two potential options after death. What if some other God is real and we lived the wrong religion. The concept of hell is still a difficult obstacle in my path to freedom, though.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU This video does a good job of debunking Pascal's Wager. It might help.

I'm no Christian just as I'm no accountant but I celebrate Christianity and Capitalism because theyre better than what else is available. Its not Capitalisms fault when Wall Street and Obama steal every dime in America, and its not Jesus' fault when Pop Francis winks at boys. Hell! I don't believe in Santa but I'm always first in line for presents on Christmas morning.

I wish you folks would shoot yourselves.

When I was a child, some very serious and pious kindly old man in a white robe once told me that I evolved from a little dot the size of this period -> . <-- billions and billions of years ago. But when I got older, and studied things like "logic" and "chaos" and "thermodynamic laws" and "information"...science stuff...I realized he was probably full of bullshit, and pushing his own personal moral agenda on me....one that he just liked better than any of the alternatives, and one he thought I should not stray from the true light, lest I live in ignorance and sin.

But getting rid of that 'ol religion just ain't easy, and it's probably the bloodiest of ideas we've invented for ourselves, thus far. Darwin is the real asshole here, but as someone else observed, if you tell a lie long enough...

OP: All the best of discovery on your journey, even if you really want to feel it's only temporary. "Temporary and pointless" vs. the "Cosmic Santa Claus" idea....it does sound very depressing.

My parents Immigrated to America from Italy. They were staunch , what I call "Old World" Roman Catholic. Latin Mass and all that. Of course they raised me in that also. No Church, No Heaven for you little girl! By the end of my freshman year in college I was dancing in a topless club and had not been in a Church let alone attended mass or heavens! Confession!?

I became apostate also, but I fell mainly as I was not worthy. Making a living seemed to keep pushing me into the adult entertainment world and eventually other things. Trust me, I felt all the same pressure as you and others have felt. The guilt, confusion and I could not find an authoritative answer. I have no idea what I was looking for or expecting I could find.

Then one of my rare evenings off I was with friends at one of their homes. We had grilled some burgers and were just talking and laughing about anything and everything. This in no way could have been construed as a religious meeting of Christians. There was even one Jew there who was a great friend (still is)

After eating and later that evening things sort of calmed down and somehow a group of sex worker types were in a discussion of evolution verses religion. Some say this is an either or topic. What I got out of that discussion was that it is not an either or issue. Why not both? Religion does not want to change and agree that science maybe right about evolution Maybe evolution is God's way of doing things? Who really knows?

Anyway what slowly came to me is that religion is a man made thing, based on the desire to control; others. It is just another "government" with it's own politics. But that does not mean there is no God, Jesus or Holy Spirit. I do believe with all my heart, but you will not find my name on any churches membership roles. But technically, since I am a believer in God and the Trinity, I am a Christian. Obviously not a Jew, though I love many as my friends. I am not a Muslim and obviously not an atheist or agnostic. I have exhibited my body for game, I have been a whore, in the truest sense, sex for money. I have had sex with many partners other than my husband, though with his permission and urging. I am damn sure I am no Mary Magdalene. I have no idea if I will be saved or will take the express elevator to Hell. Heck, I don't know if there is a Heaven or Hell for real. I do know what I feel is true in my heart and fiber of my being. I sure hope if any of these are real somewhere (I doubt the sky location. Seriously?) that I am still worth saving from whatever is out there somewhere Maybe on a different plane.

I have come to a place of peace in myself, to be myself. I harm no one, I do whatever I can to help others, my community and my country and hopefully that will help the world in some small way. Lord knows it can use all the help it can get right now. I do not lie or steal, I just do my best to live a full and happy life and be kind and loving to those around me. That to me is the real Christianity.

I've rambled on to much here, but I would like to say and maybe ask why it is there is so much anger against Christians. If you feel someone is ramming their belief down your throat, walk away. Don't hang around those people. If they come to your door, say no thank you and close the door and return to what you were doing. Why the anger at Christianity and not at the people who do that with their religion? Christians won't kill you for not listening to their teachings, Muslims will and in a horrible way. All I am asking is why the unnecessary anger towards some people when not all are like that? In fact hundreds of millions are far worse! BTW can anyone direct me to the nearest Atheist Memorial Hospital?

LauraWilling said:

By the end of my freshman year in college I was dancing in a topless club ....

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And the Priests, Brothers and other clergy from other churches were stuffing 20s in your G-string whether you recognized them or not.

Anyway what slowly came to me is that religion is a man made thing, based on the desire to control; others. It is just another "government" with it's own politics. But that does not mean there is no God, Jesus or Holy Spirit.

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I look at it this way. If it were true, there would be only ONE and all people would follow that ONE. There would not be 30 or 40 or how many?

Yasuo, I think the only advice I can really give is to learn. It seems you are already well versed in religion, so try learning as much as you can about the opposite point of view. There are lots of videos on youtube that discuss atheism. Learn and draw your own conclusions. For many years I guess I could say I was more or less agnostic. Learning more about atheism only further convinced me that I don't believe what religion espouses. Try to logically ask yourself questions about religion and see if it makes any sense to you or not. Whether the bible is to be taken literally or figuratively, none of it makes any logical sense to me. I'm fine with the love thy neighbor deal that religion teaches, but no one really seems to follow it.

What do I think of if I'm wrong and there really is a God? Fuck it! I'm going to live how I want to live. If I'm going to be sent to hell for not believing in a god then I don't want anything to do with said god. Don't be afraid to be who you are. I don't need a religion to tell me what is right and what is wrong. There are many gray areas, but a lot of it most people can agree even with differing beliefs.

tl;dr You need to find your own answers. It's your own journey and the only thing we can do is point you in the right direction. If you view things with an open mind and are willing to learn, I think you'll be just fine.

jaF0 said:

I look at it this way. If it were true, there would be only ONE and all people would follow that ONE. There would not be 30 or 40 or how many?

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I think there are roughly 40,000 denominations of Christianity alone. Talk about convoluted.

I debated on whether responding or not: I am a historical-cultural anthropologist who looks at the formation of religions as ethical systems (and no, I don't give a flying rat's ass whether or not there's a god/gods. That's not what I do). That said, I have studied the various denominations of Christianity and particularly religious responses in the West and thought I can offer some insight/clarification.

Being a Christian, by definition, is to follow the teachings of Jesus. Nowhere does Jesus say any number of things that many professed Christians claim (nothing about homosexuality, for example). The latter is mostly interpretation from pastoral letters attributed to Paul.

Additionally, when reading scripture - of any culture - one has to put it social and historical context. Most people, including clerics, do not. Actually, one should do this when reading anything about human nature, but I digress.

Pascal's Wager is pretty not accepted by many mainstream Christian denominations, and was criticised even in its day by not proving the existence of God (a non-proof is not a proof and a serious flaw in logic), not all religions were factored in (the main criticism of Diderot) and doesn't factor in non-authentic belief. Most philosophers (atheists and non) as well as most theologians dismiss the wager as being inherently flawed (as if God is infinitely incomprehensible, then there would be an infinite number of possible theologies about God, all of which are equally probable, something which Pascal conveniently ignores).

Religion (and I'm including the so-called spiritual movements of today, because they squarely fall into anthropology's definition of religion) is a human response to the basic question of what is the problematic of the human condition and designs a system to navigate it. That's it. It's simply a worldview that makes sense of why there is suffering, what causes it and how to ease it.

A colleague of mine studies apostates who comes from strict religious backgrounds (he focuses on Fundamental Christians, as they have a strict interpretation of science whereas mainstream Christianity accepts science, especially Evolutionism) and their struggles in coping in a purely secular world. There are several things he uncovered: 1. Most apostates never found a system of beliefs that worked for them to replace the ones that they left behind. In other words, how do you navigate the problematic of the human condition? You may find another religious perspective, or you may create your own, or perhaps a philosophy in understanding. Most people need some sort of structure of belief, even if it's 'my family is all that I need' or whatever. I am not suggesting that you worship something else, just that you find some strand that makes sense in your life.
2 (related to 1). Most apostates did not realise that the religion they left behind provided basic answers to their existential questions. They had to realise that the religion they left behind did provide some information about who they are. Once they realised this, they were able to grow as people they chose to be. Again, I'm not suggesting that you find another religion, rather I am merely suggesting that you understand that the answers that you were previously taught is no longer applicable to you, and to find answers that are applicable.
3. Most apostates never reconciled the anger they felt and could not define why they left. Once they were able to understand the reasons (dissatisfaction, lack of faith, whatever) they left and, for a lack of a better term, forgive themselves, they had no problem moving on.
Finally, my colleague also noticed that those who created their own interpretations were the ones who were able to move one with their lives more quickly because they were able to create their own structure in dealing with existential questions. Several of his subjects ended up creating a 'secular-Christianity' (that's the language they know) where they followed the basic tenants of Jesus (love, forgiveness etc) and didn't bother with God, or divinity, heaven or hell. They literally just focused on the morality found in the Gospels as opposed the theology of the New Testament of the whole. Call it atheistic-Christians, if you must label it. The ethics defined the way they lived, not the faith. It was an interesting article.

If following your interpretation of Christianity works for you in reconciling your current situation, go for it. After all, the basic message of Jesus: love, charity, giving and being kind is pretty fundamentally Golden Rule - everything else is just details. I would like to point out that throughout history and even today there are many sex positive Christian denominations, as there are many many other sex-positive religions, just as there are many sex-negative atheistic philosophies. You have to go with what works for you.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that every single worldview, including Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists (amongst many many others), had its basic tenant misinterpreted and eventually perverted by psychopaths, causing mass murder. People are just fucked up across the globe and throughout history.

Just something to chew and think about.

jaF0 said:

^^ And right after I got back home on those mornings, I'd go downstairs and play with the HO Train and race car sets with their little villiages and people and think, this must be how "He" does it!!!!

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LOL!

LauraWilling said:

I've rambled on to much here, but I would like to say and maybe ask why it is there is so much anger against Christians. If you feel someone is ramming their belief down your throat, walk away. Don't hang around those people. If they come to your door, say no thank you and close the door and return to what you were doing. Why the anger at Christianity and not at the people who do that with their religion? Christians won't kill you for not listening to their teachings, Muslims will and in a horrible way. All I am asking is why the unnecessary anger towards some people when not all are like that? In fact hundreds of millions are far worse! BTW can anyone direct me to the nearest Atheist Memorial Hospital?

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I don't have any anger, just questions that no one has been able to answer. If religion is the truth, which one is correct?

The top ten hospitals in the U.S. are pretty secular.

1. Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore

2. Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston

3. Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota

4. Cleveland Clinic in Ohio

5. UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles

6. Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago

7. (tie) New York-Presbyterian University Hospital of Columbia and Cornell, New York

7. (tie) UCSF Medical Center in San Francisco

9. Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston

10. UPMC-University of Pittsburgh Medical Center in Pennsylvania

Yasuo_ said:

I grew up Christian and went to church. I had Jesus and God hammered into my head for 25+ years. I could tell you an entire life story, but to get straight to the point, I lost my faith about 2 months ago. Let me be very clear, for years I was losing interest in any kind of church activity, praying, bible reading, etc. I never cared to do it. Because of this, I was warned that maybe I wasn't *truly* a Christian and maybe I would still burn in hell. After all, I basically just lived my life normally and labeled myself as a Christian just for the purpose of not dying and going to hell.

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Two months is not a long time to assimilate a major change in world-view. I think it's quite understandable that you're still having difficulty with this.

A logical argument is that labelling yourself for that purpose isn't really "belief", and any god that might exist is unlikely to be impressed by it. But that's probably not helpful emotionally. I think fire_breeze has the right of it: it's easier to escape that value system when you have something to take its place.

Let me know if you have any experience with this and if you can help. I do *not* want to be convinced that I'm going through a trial from God. Fuck that. In my opinion, if God does exist, he's a real asshole.

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Oh, I know what you mean there. I had a pretty horrible year last year, and one of my friends - love her dearly but she has a bad case of conspiracy-theory religion - told me the story about shepherds breaking a lamb's leg to teach it not to stray. It was, shall we say, not helpful.

However, you might enjoy this: http://oglaf.com/sithrak/

Relax the Christians are the biggest hypocrites in the history of religion. your decision will not blow up in your face.

Yasuo_ said:

I lost my faith about 2 months ago.

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I agree with Bramblethorn, two months is but a blip in time and for the rest of your opening post it would appear that Christianity still has a hold... or is it church still has a hold?

I'll offer a very simplified view, actually something I wrote here for someone else, yet I think it is a fit here as well.

NightL said:

stop over analysing things - just do - just live life. If it feels good and you are harming no one, continue. If you are uncomfortable, stop.

From your writings here you have indicated that you have lived under social and cultural rules that you are now questioning. If you are looking for the golden answers to life stop chasing the elusive book of rules - you have them already, you don't need to look anywhere - they are hard-wired into you. Look within, trust your instincts.

Discarding one set of imposed rules for another set of imposed rules will just drain your soul. Try considering your journey to be one of self discovery. It is the imposition of rules that you are rejecting - don't dump an alternate set on your shoulders, they won't set you free.

We are mostly social creatures - just lift your head high and say "hello" with a smile and take it from there - trust your instincts.

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I strongly rejected church at the age of about seven, and never really let religious considerations into my life so this may make it easy for me to offer up my simplified view of how to lead life while upholding moral and indeed virtuous values. Of course we still have to negotiate the world around us, so respect and tolerance of the choices of others is essential if we want to walk out into the world.

fire_breeze said:

Most people need some sort of structure of belief, even if it's 'my family is all that I need' or whatever. I am not suggesting that you worship something else, just that you find some strand that makes sense in your life.

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I support all of fire_breeze's post - my suggestion is to simply just look within first. You may just find all the structure you need is already in place.

Yasuo_, your battle with Christianity will exhaust you. You can simply choose to step aside - live a life of your own design, not one imposed.