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Bad Erotica Tropes

sr71plt said:
OK now, here's where I think you're not getting what the purpose and foundation of erotica is as opposed to real life. Underneath this trope is the fantasy that just below the surface in all women--whatever woman a man wished he could get who walks by him in life--is a raging sex goddess who would be responsive to the one having the fantasy (or could be that woman). That's a real arousal device. That it would be used in writing erotica that turns readers on should be no surprise or badmounted as "bad trope." It's a great trope if you are able to latch into what erotica is and what it's meant to do.

That's why, to me, threads like this are sort of stupid. Can't differentiate between the erotica genre and what its function is and real life.
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If threads like this are stupid, why do you read and/or contribute to them?

I think plenty of us can and do differentiate between erotica and real life, and the tropes in the stories versus things in real life. I know that the hidden sex goddess trope has its appeal to people, both men and women, and that's fine. Same with the petite big-chested woman and the tall guy with the 12" dick. It's just something that doesn't work for me; maybe I've read it too many times. I'm not saying people shouldn't write it, or any other trope.

There are tropes in erotica that I like that others don't, I'm sure, and some would think those are "bad tropes." This thread was about which ones we don't like. I know that many of the ones I don't like others do, and again, no problem.
 
PennLady said:
If threads like this are stupid, why do you read and/or contribute to them?
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Oh, come on, PL, that's pretty lame. I read them because they are about writing erotica and are posted to the AH which I don't think is enough about writing and I wouldn't know what I thought about them if I didn't read them. And if I then find them irritating, why shouldn't I post that?

I don't think this "just shut up" comment becomes you.
 
Again I quote from TVTropes: Consider the following points before you label simply including a common story element or character type as a sign of creative failure: "But it's what this author is doing this time that matters, as much as, if not more than, what he or she did last time, and that, certainly, matters far more than its kinships, its family likenesses with its mode, its genres, its formal kind." —Valentine Cunningham, Oxford

Tropes are very handy, especially in the short story, where we might want to avoid lots of exposition and get to the action. A trope comes with a known frame of reference, it lets the reader know where they are and what sort of story it will be. The writer is still free to develop characters, setting, plot and the story without re-inventing everything.

That said, I think a writer should understand the tropes they use and how they can lock a reader into a path because they are a well understood map. That is where the writer can combine tropes, twist tropes or even play them straight but with new characters or settings, etc. When people say they do not like a trope, it is not the trope I think, but how it was used by the writer in their story. We can take the greatest of author's works and dissect to the tropes inside and at work, it lets us see the bones around which a story hangs and works. I find it a powerful set of tools in the mental work box.
 
Thanks, Michael. That's a good discussion on what the thread was titled, I think.

The thread wasn't titled "Erotica Tropes I Personally Find Irritating." It was titled "Bad Erotica Tropes." That, I believe opened the thread up to a discussion of what the thread was titled.
 
sr71plt said:
Thanks, Michael. That's a good discussion on what the thread was titled, I think.

The thread wasn't titled "Erotica Tropes I Personally Find Irritating." It was titled "Bad Erotica Tropes." That, I believe opened the thread up to a discussion of what the thread was titled.
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Good point! Hopefully posters to follow will get the subtle difference.
 
MichaelinChina said:
Good point! Hopefully posters to follow will get the subtle difference.
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Okay, so we are supposed to write about "bad tropes" but leave our personal opinions out of it?

Alright so......

I have nothing and neither would anyone else. Good trope/Bad trope is subjective and based on the opinion of every reader/writer here.

Because except for a personal opinion what right do any of ou have to say "That's bad"? None, who the hell are we?

So the only true answer is based on what each person thinks.

Having said that its not an excuse to pick on others work or "tropes" but just express the ones we, as individuals, don;t like
 
sr71plt said:
Oh, come on, PL, that's pretty lame. I read them because they are about writing erotica and are posted to the AH which I don't think is enough about writing and I wouldn't know what I thought about them if I didn't read them. And if I then find them irritating, why shouldn't I post that?

I don't think this "just shut up" comment becomes you.
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It's not lame, and I wasn't telling you to just shut up. I went on in my post to discuss it more. It was a question. I would think if you don't like threads like this -- which, yes, you have to read them to figure that out -- then you wouldn't contribute. I see plenty I don't contribute to, for various reasons. Although if you want to, fine.

This thread was titled "Bad Erotica Tropes," but I think it almost immediately changed more to "tropes people are tired of reading about." I find some of these tropes discussed tiresome, but not necessarily bad, and I can see where they are useful, can see that they arouse some people, and said if authors want to use them, I have no problem with that.
 
My opinion is that there are niether good nor bad tropes, but we do react to how they are used in any given story. For example, when a writer uses the "Buxom is Better" trope as a short cut to give an otherwise flat female character sexy appeal rather than actually giving descriptions that develop sexiness. This usually devolves to "Author Appeal." In other words the writer gives all female characters big chests because that is sexy to the author, not because it actually does anything for the character. This seems to get the reaction "that was a bad trope."
 
Tropes get to be tropes for a reason. Certain fantasies are pretty common. Some people read lots of erotica, and quickly get tired of seeing the same thing a thousand times. Those who write erotica, and strive for creativity and originality in their work, aren't very impressed when other writers mindlessly push the same old buttons. All well and good. But let's not forget that some people don't read that many stories, and they like to see the things they fantasize about in the stories they read.

I think it's the same with all artistic endeavors. There's a place for pop music and blockbuster movies. There's also a place for more refined and sophisticated work. Yet there's also a reason that some artists and filmmakers hardly sell any records or tickets despite being beloved by critics.

There are certain tropes that I no longer care for, same as everyone else. But I think they all have their place, and I'm glad that readers who want that type of thing can find what they're looking for.
 
MichaelWest said:
My opinion is that there are niether good nor bad tropes, but we do react to how they are used in any given story. For example, when a writer uses the "Buxom is Better" trope as a short cut to give an otherwise flat female character sexy appeal rather than actually giving descriptions that develop sexiness. This usually devolves to "Author Appeal." In other words the writer gives all female characters big chests because that is sexy to the author, not because it actually does anything for the character. This seems to get the reaction "that was a bad trope."
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Agreed. A related practice that kills my interest in a story right quick is when every female character has the same body shape as every other female, and ditto the men. I don't need the characters to be ultra-realistic. The average person just isn't that sexy. If none of your characters are old or fat or bald, I'll forgive you. :) But a little variety sure is nice.
 
At first I wanted to rebel against the tropes. I told myself it was more creative to subvert them or avoid them. But as I studied them, I began to see how they are just tools and I could now control their usage.

I would not fault an author for using very common tropes or trying to subvert them, each writer tells the story they have in mind, there are amazing stories that are pure formula and amazing stories that are so far off the beaten path they are just crazy, and failures too.

As much fun as it is to just write for arts sake, I enjoy the conscious process, making choices, seeing how I am influenced by tropes, other authors, the world around me and at times my readers.
 
PennLady said:
This thread was titled "Bad Erotica Tropes," but I think it almost immediately changed more to "tropes people are tired of reading about." I find some of these tropes discussed tiresome, but not necessarily bad, and I can see where they are useful, can see that they arouse some people, and said if authors want to use them, I have no problem with that.
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I chose to respond to this thread as it was titled (and pretty much on how the OP framed his posting). *shrug*
 
MichaelWest said:
At first I wanted to rebel against the tropes. I told myself it was more creative to subvert them or avoid them. But as I studied them, I began to see how they are just tools and I could now control their usage.

I would not fault an author for using very common tropes or trying to subvert them, each writer tells the story they have in mind, there are amazing stories that are pure formula and amazing stories that are so far off the beaten path they are just crazy, and failures too.

As much fun as it is to just write for arts sake, I enjoy the conscious process, making choices, seeing how I am influenced by tropes, other authors, the world around me and at times my readers.
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Well said.
 
sr71plt said:
I chose to respond to this thread as it was titled (and pretty much on how the OP framed his posting). *shrug*
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First line of the OP: "Which erotica tropes do you wish people would stop using?"

I thought it was pretty clear that this was meant to be subjective, rather than an Académie française that dictates what can and cannot be written. If readers like certain tropes, that can't be helped, but I'd still like to discuss which tropes people consider "bad" and why.
 
MichaelWest said:
At first I wanted to rebel against the tropes. I told myself it was more creative to subvert them or avoid them. But as I studied them, I began to see how they are just tools and I could now control their usage.

I would not fault an author for using very common tropes or trying to subvert them, each writer tells the story they have in mind, there are amazing stories that are pure formula and amazing stories that are so far off the beaten path they are just crazy, and failures too.

As much fun as it is to just write for arts sake, I enjoy the conscious process, making choices, seeing how I am influenced by tropes, other authors, the world around me and at times my readers.
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I agree. I don't think tropes are innately bad, but there are some that just feel lazy to me, like using waxed moustaches to identify your villain. Analysis can help improve writing.

PS: I love TV Tropes!
 
I looked up the definition of TROPE as I had no idea what it was. So now this thread reminds me of people who speak of GENDER when what they mean is SEX. And if TROPE is a shorthand means for expressing a complex idea, then maybe the beef is really with cliches and tattered stereotypes.

For all you naifs out there, a trope is an allegory or analogy or metaphor or irony or stereotype or cliche or parable.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
the beef is really with cliches and tattered stereotypes.
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Hammer, meet nail.

The problem with tropes, or stereotypes, or cliches or whatever else you want to call them, is that they aren't going to go away and practically no author out there will ever be able to avoid using them. And I think, in erotica, there are quite a few of these that linger because they are part of the shared fantasy network of the majority of men and women.

Take the typical erotic stereotype of the busty blonde secretary. Sure, you could change one of the attributes -- make her a redhead -- but the trope still applies. The same with the giggling schoolgirl in a pleated skirt and pigtails. Or the red-lipped, dark-haired dominatrix who smokes hand-rolled cigarettes through a ten-inch long holder. These are sexual archetypes that fall into place readily within many a man's mind when he is fantasizing. They are perpetuated because they represent basic ideas that tickle our libidos in certain ways. I think it was said that men rarely fantasize about specific women, but rather create the ideal fantasy lover in their head. I would tend to agree with that for the most part. Most of my fantasies were based around women I did not know, but had invented.

At the same time, if Harlequin Romance novels are any indication, erotic (or romantic) tropes among women apparently follow paths just as predictable. Men are tall, muscular, rugged, willing to fight but not violent, protective and fatherly, and more than anything else, concerned with the satisfaction of his lover more than anything else. I seriously doubt that trope is going to go away any time soon.

To echo what someone else has said, what tropes are considered "bad" or "good" is subjective. For me, personally, if I start reading a story and a woman is described as being tall, blonde, busty and dominant, I usually yawn and look for something else to read.
 
I have found that in more than in any genre erotica readers-at least here at lit-want their tropes.

They seem to want to know where the story is going from the start. When a story starts with a shy virginal 18 year old girl and she gets invited to a frat party, they are already getting hard picturing the ensuing gang bang and her fucking like a porn star.

The second Mom catches her son masturbating, the reader just knows she wants some of him.

When a GM story starts with the good looking painfully heterosexual hitchhiker you know he secretly wants to have sex with a man.

They love them and its stories that branch off from those that don't do as well.

A trope only truly becomes a trope when people fall in love with it and they are not going anywhere.
 
slyc_willie said:
Hammer, meet nail.

The problem with tropes, or stereotypes, or cliches or whatever else you want to call them, is that they aren't going to go away and practically no author out there will ever be able to avoid using them. And I think, in erotica, there are quite a few of these that linger because they are part of the shared fantasy network of the majority of men and women.

Take the typical erotic stereotype of the busty blonde secretary. Sure, you could change one of the attributes -- make her a redhead -- but the trope still applies. The same with the giggling schoolgirl in a pleated skirt and pigtails. Or the red-lipped, dark-haired dominatrix who smokes hand-rolled cigarettes through a ten-inch long holder. These are sexual archetypes that fall into place readily within many a man's mind when he is fantasizing. They are perpetuated because they represent basic ideas that tickle our libidos in certain ways. I think it was said that men rarely fantasize about specific women, but rather create the ideal fantasy lover in their head. I would tend to agree with that for the most part. Most of my fantasies were based around women I did not know, but had invented.

At the same time, if Harlequin Romance novels are any indication, erotic (or romantic) tropes among women apparently follow paths just as predictable. Men are tall, muscular, rugged, willing to fight but not violent, protective and fatherly, and more than anything else, concerned with the satisfaction of his lover more than anything else. I seriously doubt that trope is going to go away any time soon.

To echo what someone else has said, what tropes are considered "bad" or "good" is subjective. For me, personally, if I start reading a story and a woman is described as being tall, blonde, busty and dominant, I usually yawn and look for something else to read.
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Cant agree more, though I write about real women I knew/know well, and almost all my stories are based on real events. I think I was 5 when I learned the most important lesson I ever had: IF A WOMAN WANTS SOMETHING SHE'LL GO GET IT. And that goes double if she wants a man. Mencken said that bachelors are men no woman wants, that men dont decide their relationship status. Its true.

The women I write about arent beauty queens, most are 40 and plump with unmet needs. I suspect that most men are like Barney Fife, who carries one bullet in his shirt pocket for emergencies. There's a big demand for sexless moms with these guys.
 
One of the ones that I hate is when something happens that is naughty (like husband has sex with wife's sister, or wife cheats on husband). The story itself will be great and then you will get to the end and they will pull the 'ol switcheroo and say something like "I found out that my wife had set up the whole rendezvous between me and her sister. She wanted us to sleep together" or something like that. It's just annoying to me. Just leave the betrayal as a betrayal.

Similarly, it bothers me when you have stories where someone is caught cheating and the other partner joins in. Just leave the cheating story as a cheating story. Don't try and tie it up and make it a 'happy' ending.

Also the "I was caught masturbating and the person who caught me suddenly wants to fuck me" story line has gotten old very fast. Seeing someone masturbating is probably not going to make you want to fuck them.
 
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