What is the Good in keeping Confederate Statues and such?

coachdb18 said:

Remember when Reagan went to the German cemetery at Bitburg, and there were memorials and <gasp> SS grave markers <gasp>? There was controversy in that visit... in America. And there were American graves in that same cemetery, which Reagan honored with a wreath laying, right there in Germany. Guess what, the Germans didn't win that war either, but they were fallen soldiers who still get respect, nobody digging them up or desecrating their tombstones, and the Germans aren't digging up the 'enemy' American dead!

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Yes, that's where those memorials belong. Not in the center of town. Not schools named after them. Not parks. Bet you don't find the Reinhard Heydrich Elementary School anywhere in Germany.

MGurkus said:

Fuck all your civil war heroes. Seriously. The town voted to remove the statues and that is that. Quit being a special kind of snowflake. If you don't like the democratic process go to NK or Russia. The citizens are tired of being reminded of their legacy of hate and racism.

*suckitupbuttercup

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I think it was established somewhat earlier that these removals violate Federal law, and it's not just 'the town', it's America wide. Here locally, as you may not have heard, it was a mob that pulled down a statue with a rope they brought for the purpose, and the perpetrators have been tried and found guilty.

Or should that same treatment be acceptable for the statue of MLK, also in Durham? Should the people who might object to that just suck it up and go to DPRK.

coachdb18 said:

I think it was established somewhat earlier that these removals violate Federal law, and it's not just 'the town', it's America wide. Here locally, as you may not have heard, it was a mob that pulled down a statue with a rope they brought for the purpose, and the perpetrators have been tried and found guilty.

Or should that same treatment be acceptable for the statue of MLK, also in Durham? Should the people who might object to that just suck it up and go to DPRK.

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Show me the law that says relocating statues is forbidden and I will offer an apology. Hoodlums destroying statues is not acceptable and is not the topic at hand.

MGurkus said:

Show me the law that says relocating statues is forbidden and I will offer an apology. Hoodlums destroying statues is not acceptable and is not the topic at hand.

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No federal law (I don't think). There is a Virginia law (for Virginia), though, originally passed in 1950 and since amended to include additional wars.

http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title15.2/chapter18/section15.2-1812/

coachdb18 said:

I think it was established somewhat earlier that these removals violate Federal law, and it's not just 'the town', it's America wide.

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I don't think there's any federal law.

Rightguide said:

How does that negate what I just said? Was the protest legal? Did it have a permit? Who started the violence? Who landed the first blow? Who showed up to disrupt a lawful legally permitted protest?

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I'm working my way through a minute-by-minute chronology of events between Friday afternoon into Sunday from a Charlottesville paper (C'Ville Weekly).

Yes, counterprotest groups had two permits--for adjacent parks, one one block away and the other two blocks away. They didn't stay in those parks, but you don't need a permit to be where they were--on the streets bordering Emancipation Park.

The counterprotestors never went into Emancipation Park, but then most of the alt-right demonstrators didn't get into the park either, their progress blocked off by counterprotestors--and the police calling off their event before it started.

Both groups showed up before cited in their permits, so both of them negated their assembly right off the bat (and the alt-right assembly was declared an illegal assembly before the time it was supposed to start).

Whereas the protestors from both sides arrived early, the police arrived late and didn't seem to do too much initially once they were there. When the governor declared an emergency, more state police came in. Rather dumbly, though, they just pushed everyone away from the park, which meant they just went to adjacent streets and fought each other on more fronts in roving gangs. The newspaper doesn't really pin it down, but from what I've gathered and gotten directly from counterprotestors I've talked to, I think the counterprotestors started throwing stuff first (but that Friday night, at the University of Virginia, the Nazi-like paraders initiated attacks). No matter who initiated throwing things, the alt-righters were better armed--guns and bats verses baseball bats and bottles full of this and that--and engaged in more ganging attacks, including against reporters present.

In the last couple of evenings I've heard claims on TV coverage that the alt-righters brandished guns (which the newspaper coverage agrees with) and that they fired them into the ground. I don't think that's true. I was close enough to the downtown to have heard gunfire and I didn't hear any.

All else said, the alt-righters showed up armed to the teeth with guns. The policy should have stopped it right there no matter what the second amendment says. The ACLU, which sued (and won) for the alt-right's right to assemble in Emancipation park (in the center of town) when the City Council belatedly tried to switch them to a larger park further out of the center of the town (where the alt-rightists, in fact, assembled before and after), now says they won't represent any group going to a demonstration armed with guns.

coachdb18 said:

Remember when Reagan went to the German cemetery at Bitburg, and there were memorials and <gasp> SS grave markers <gasp>? There was controversy in that visit... in America. And there were American graves in that same cemetery, which Reagan honored with a wreath laying, right there in Germany. Guess what, the Germans didn't win that war either, but they were fallen soldiers who still get respect, nobody digging them up or desecrating their tombstones, and the Germans aren't digging up the 'enemy' American dead!

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Reagan never went to Germany, because Germany didn't exist in 1985.

MGurkus said:

Show me the law that says relocating statues is forbidden and I will offer an apology. Hoodlums destroying statues is not acceptable and is not the topic at hand.

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*"by Public Law 85-425, May 23, 1958 (H.R. 358) 72 Statute 133 states--"3) (e) for the purpose of this section, and section 433, the term 'veteran' includes*a person who served *in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States*of America during the Civil War, and the term 'active, military or naval service' includes active service in such forces." Additionally, U.S. Public Law 810, approved in February 1929, directed the War Department to erect headstones for and to recognize Confederate grave sites as the graves of U.S. war dead.

When a Confederate monument is removed, that's the same as removing a monument to U.S. veterans. And federal law has precedent over state law in regards to U.S. veterans.

Where's the wording on statues? I suppose there are statues that also are headstones. Not many, and none that we are talking about. If there are references to statues in the law you cite, provide them. A monument isn't a headstone unless there's an appropriate body buried under it.

jaF0 said:

My proposal would be a Federal Law or Court order. The states would have no say.

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Only trouble is this is the United States and the Constitution still rules. The states always have a say.

sr71plt said:

Whereas the protestors from both sides arrived early, the police arrived late and didn't seem to do too much initially once they were there. When the governor declared an emergency, more state police came in. Rather dumbly, though, they just pushed everyone away from the park, which meant they just went to adjacent streets and fought each other on more fronts in roving gangs.

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This fits nicely with what I've read about on-the-scene reports from both the Neo-Nazis and the counter-protestors.

The were were two entry/exit points at the square, the southwest corner and th southeast corner. The counterprotesters were there congregated at that point, heckling and jeering the Nazis as they entered the park square.

The police arrived in a straight line from the north and simply pushed the Nazis southward en masse. To exit the park, the Nazis had to run through the counterprotester gauntlet again to exit and many of the Nazis panicked.

The police didn't do shit about the riot breaking out south of the park, they "accomplished their mission" by "clearing the park". Piss poor strategery if you ask me.

The Nazis were caught in a classic pincer movement, hammers to the north, anvils to the south. Despite being armored more heavily than the counterprotesters, they got their asses kicked because of the sheer overwhelming numbers of counterprotestors.

The Nazis had firepower superiority with all those shiny steel penis substitutes, but didn't use them, figuring (correctly) that it wasn't worth years in pound-me-in-the-ass Virginia prisons for a few moment of fascist glory. They crumbled and ran away to the safety and comfort of their computer screens, where they were embiggened to write about their "stunning victory".

So... basically what I'm hearing is that the biggest reason to keep the statues and maintain them in the public purview is that if we don't we will anger the racists.

Notwithstanding the vestiges of last Civil War the Left, the Democrat Party, whipped up by the media, isn't going to stop with taking down statuary from the Civil War era, they are going to go after the legitimacy of the founding of the country, the Founders, and all they wrought, including the Constitution. Democrats have been importing revolution into the country since day one and it's finally arrived. We're looking at the seeds of a new American Civil War coming to fruition as we speak.

I believe America, as founded, will survive and in deference to the those who died trying to bring it down, there will be no statues erected in their memory. Let us only be reminded of their existence when it snows.

Rightguide said:

Notwithstanding the vestiges of last Civil War the Left, the Democrat Party, whipped up by the media, isn't going to stop with taking down statuary from the Civil War era, they are going to go after the legitimacy of the founding of the country, the Founders, and all they wrought, including the Constitution. Democrats have been importing revolution into the country since day one and it's finally arrived. We're looking at the seeds of a new American Civil War coming to fruition as we speak.

I believe America, as founded, will survive and in deference to the those who died trying to bring it down, there will be no statues erected in their memory. Let us only be reminded of their existence when it snows.

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Very few people want to "take down" statuary, they just want it moved.

Robert E Lee literally waged war in an effort to take the country down and statues were erected in his honor.

Rightguide said:

Notwithstanding the vestiges of last Civil War the Left, the Democrat Party, whipped up by the media, isn't going to stop with taking down statuary from the Civil War era,

they are going to go after the legitimacy of the founding of the country, the Founders, and all they wrought, including the Constitution.

Democrats have been importing revolution into the country since day one and it's finally arrived. We're looking at the seeds of a new American Civil War coming to fruition as we speak.

I believe America, as founded, will survive and in deference to the those who died trying to bring it down, there will be no statues erected in their memory. Let us only be reminded of their existence when it snows.

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Interesting perspective.
Not implausible.

SgtSpiderMan said:

Very few people want to "take down" statuary, they just want it moved.

Robert E Lee literally waged war in an effort to take the country down and statues were erected in his honor.

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Abraham Lincoln waged war to take down the South to kill and starve its people but statues of Lincoln are erected in Vicksburg, Richmond, and Harrogate, TN.

Rightguide said:

Abraham Lincoln waged war to take down the South to kill and starve its people but statues of Lincoln are erected in Vicksburg, Richmond, and Harrogate, TN.

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Remind me who secceded from the country. You're not actually saying you support the south, are you?

coachdb18 said:

*"by Public Law 85-425, May 23, 1958 (H.R. 358) 72 Statute 133 states--"3) (e) for the purpose of this section, and section 433, the term 'veteran' includes*a person who served *in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States*of America during the Civil War, and the term 'active, military or naval service' includes active service in such forces." Additionally, U.S. Public Law 810, approved in February 1929, directed the War Department to erect headstones for and to recognize Confederate grave sites as the graves of U.S. war dead.

When a Confederate monument is removed, that's the same as removing a monument to U.S. veterans. And federal law has precedent over state law in regards to U.S. veterans.

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I will ask again for you to show what law prevents the RELOCATING of statues. It's okay, i'll wait.

SgtSpiderMan said:

You're not actually saying you support the south, are you?

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You haven't been paying attention, have you?

Rightguide said:

Abraham Lincoln waged war to take down the South to kill and starve its people but statues of Lincoln are erected in Vicksburg, Richmond, and Harrogate, TN.

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You lost the war, get over it.

SgtSpiderMan said:

Remind me who secceded from the country. You're not actually saying you support the south, are you?

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Not at all just countering your non sequitur.

Maybe the easiest solution is to go back and label those Confederate statues as participation trophies. Snowflakes and the left would maybe understand.

Rightguide said:

Maybe the easiest solution is to go back and label those Confederate statues as participation trophies. Snowflakes and the left would maybe understand.

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The Left would, but your fellow snowflakes would freak the fuck out.

Rightguide said:

Not at all just countering your non sequitur.

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LOL. Keep on running.

Rightguide said:

Maybe the easiest solution is to go back and label those Confederate statues as participation trophies.

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No, the easiest solution is to pull down all statues of traitors and pound them into rubble. But that's sub-optimal. IMHO they should be relocated to military cemeteries, to show which oath-breaking swine filled those acres of graves.