Character Motivation in Erotica

Let's see if there can be discussion on this without the personal attacking.

JBJ posed this in a thread that I found to be a good point to discuss:

". . . my characters are self absorbed, self centered, opportunists. . . . This way is the best model to explain and predict action."

I think, for the most part, this reflects most of the characters, especially the protagonists, in my erotica stories. This is erotica, so the need/desire/enjoyment of sex is central to my stories and, thus, exists in and motivates my principal characters as a neutral given. This, indeed, as JBJ opines, explains and predicts action in the story and, because the stories are erotica, there usually is no judgment on the goal being fulfilled.

Do others write erotica with the desire/need for sex being central to their story and the motivation of their characters and the fulfillment of this goal being acceptable in the story outcome?

This begs the question of whether the protagonist has to be "liked." I don't strive to have mine liked (and it curdles my blood when others say they require this from a short story) so much as understood within the erotica context that sexual satisfaction is the motivator and that, even if the character is seen as a slave to that desire, they aren't "unliked" as long as they aren't damaging others in the process.

I do not tend to make sex the point of a story, but instead act as a barometer for the intimacy between characters. The kind of sex they have then plays off of the nature of the relationship.

As for what the characters need, I tey to vary that as much as I can but a big chunk of my stuff comes down to needing acceptance.

EDIT: For me, sex is a natural part of life and the human experience. If I'm capturing some human moments, there will be opportunities for sex to be part of the equation.

Deleted

I also write some characters as intentionally unlikable or grating. I'm happy with that as long as the character has internal logic and consistent motivation.

sr71plt said:

Do others write erotica with the desire/need for sex being central to their story and the motivation of their characters and the fulfillment of this goal being acceptable in the story outcome?

Click to expand...

In some cases, yes. More commonly no. Emotional relationships are often central to my stories and the eroticism is within that context. The story outcome is not usually the completion of a sexual act, but of an emotional one, though the two can coincide.

sr71plt said:

This begs the question of whether the protagonist has to be "liked."

Click to expand...

My second story posted to Lit got the public comment "Your characters are vile."

I thanked the commenter. It never occurred to me that they should be likable.

More often though, I do want at least the female protagonist to be likable. I want her to be attractive, and being likable is a good start in that direction.

I try to paint most of my erotica protagonists (although I sometimes happily go with the villain as the protagonist) as likable/interesting/understandable but flawed, with, because it's erotica I'm writing, the flaw usually being them being a slave, even if shamefully, to the overweaning need for sex (which puts us at JBJ's self-obsession, self-centeredness--to the point of narcissism at the base). We're all flawed, of course. What this does for me, as JBJ suggested in what I quoted, is that it provides story tension and motivation for a storyline that fits in erotica. The plot is important to me, yes, but for erotica that plot has to have sexual arousal and striving for sexual release at its core. I can't see erotica without the sexual arousal element being at the core.

I'll note that I'm speaking mainly about my GM stories here. I'd have to think about the non-GM stories I write. It's likely that I don't start off with narcissism and obsession with sex at the base as I do with gay male. I imagine that what's at the base of the story is more varied with the non-GM stories I write--and certainly with the mainstream nonerotic stories I write.

NotWise said:

In some cases, yes. More commonly no. Emotional relationships are often central to my stories and the eroticism is within that context. The story outcome is not usually the completion of a sexual act, but of an emotional one, though the two can coincide.

Click to expand...

The emotion that is at the base of my erotica is the need/desire for sexual fulfillment--often including the acknowledgment that it's at the level of self-damaging obsession. My stories don't always end with a sexual act either, but with an accommodation to/acceptance of sexual need on the emotional level--often the acceptance that it is what it is and need not be seen as self-damaging.

Dear Reader

http://www.edpsycinteractive.org/topics/motivation/motivate.html


I was trained to think of MOTIVATION as the biological mechanism that truly exists apart from conscious awareness...think coma or sleep. Nowadays motivation is whatever you want it to be. The APA took a vote and here we are. I roll my eyes at much of what the APA inflicted on psychology. Its bull shit.

I believe sex exists apart from cosmetic attraction. It must or lotsa sexual encounters would be okay legally and morally. So I believe character motivation has shit to do with luv or even sexuality, even. A corn dog up your ass wont do shit for your hunger.

To answer the question: yes, in general, I write stories in which the protagonist's sexual need/fantasy/kink is the motivating force of the story. But I don't agree with Noirtrash's characterization of characters as being self-absorbed and selfish. I think what makes an erotic story interesting is internal conflict of some kind, and internal conflict is more dramatically interesting if the protagonist is appealing, in some way or another. So my tendency is to write characters that are appealing in some way but that are driven by sexual needs/desires that push the boundaries of what society considers acceptable. That's what makes an erotic story interesting to me.

SimonDoom said:

To answer the question: yes, in general, I write stories in which the protagonist's sexual need/fantasy/kink is the motivating force of the story. But I don't agree with Noirtrash's characterization of characters as being self-absorbed and selfish. I think what makes an erotic story interesting is internal conflict of some kind, and internal conflict is more dramatically interesting if the protagonist is appealing, in some way or another. So my tendency is to write characters that are appealing in some way but that are driven by sexual needs/desires that push the boundaries of what society considers acceptable. That's what makes an erotic story interesting to me.

Click to expand...

I'm sure I'd have to think of GM and heterosexual differently on this issue the more I think about it. I think the self-centered, self-absorption characterization is valid for GM, though--because of the box a gay male finds himself in in society to be actively gay to the point of even being a character in a erotic situation. I think the dynamite required to be actively gay male (can't speak for lesbians) goes through the road of being self-obsessed and narcissistic and of having struggled with that and chosen to be that way.

Beyond that I think that a basic general difference in male and female attitudes toward sex is male general attitude = event and female general attitude = process. So, beyond gay male, I think males are more self-centered in sex than females are--in general.

I suppose that being the category is erotica sex should be an important goal, and to me it is.

But the getting there varies as does how important. I think if you make the characters important to the reader the sex automatically becomes more important because they want to see these people get together because they're vested...as opposed to a one handed read where they're banging away after a 'hi I'm horny'

As for the likable characters....I think it depends on category and story. Example I don't see how someone could write a very good romance with characters your readers can't stand. The fun of romance is wanting the HEA so who wants two assholes to be happy or an asshole be happy with a good person who is now stuck with an asshole?

But in non con? Well, let's face it anyone who would force sex on someone is not likable and in that genre the more despicable the attacker the better for the humiliation of the victim.

In general writing as in here which is usually for fun, I hope people like the characters, but I don't go to any great lengths. Writing is interpretation. One man's asshole is another man's likable.

In my more series work? I'm the anti hero type so most of my characters on the surface are not likable. Vain, violent, arrogant, amoral etc....

But in my case they are usually playing the opposite of even worse, rapists, drug dealers, sex traffickers, killers....so likable now becomes perspective and pick your poison.

What I find as a challenge is to take unlikable and get people to understand why they're that way and...make them empathize and like them. Fun game.

But the short answer is I'm fine writing character people wouldn't like. If it costs readers...well....oh, well.

sr71plt said:

Let's see if there can be discussion on this without the personal attacking.

Do others write erotica with the desire/need for sex being central to their story and the motivation of their characters and the fulfillment of this goal being acceptable in the story outcome?

This begs the question of whether the protagonist has to be "liked." I don't strive to have mine liked (and it curdles my blood when others say they require this from a short story) so much as understood within the erotica context that sexual satisfaction is the motivator and that, even if the character is seen as a slave to that desire, they aren't "unliked" as long as they aren't damaging others in the process.

Click to expand...

I prefer not to have sex as the be-all and end-all of a story (ie., central to the action).
As to the protagonist being "liked", I prefer "sympathised with" rather than liked.
I believe that the story should come first and any sex is almost secondary.
.

Dear Reader

Sex is semen deposited in a vagina. Anything else isn't sex. Almost all of what Laurel prohibits isn't sex, its whatever it is but not semen deposited in a vagina.

Getting your ass beat isn't sex, its an ass whuppin.

A hot dog in your ass aint lunch.

Much of the above is chatter about getting to an orgasm, not sex.

The strangest sex I know of occurred when a soldier lost a testicle from a gun shot and the bullet carried the gonad to a girl's vagina and impregnated her. True story.

NOIRTRASH said:

Dear Reader

Sex is semen deposited in a vagina. Anything else isn't sex. Almost all of what Laurel prohibits isn't sex, its whatever it is but not semen deposited in a vagina.

Click to expand...

I believe the thread was about erotica, not sex.

Handley_Page said:

I prefer not to have sex as the be-all and end-all of a story (ie., central to the action).
As to the protagonist being "liked", I prefer "sympathised with" rather than liked.
I believe that the story should come first and any sex is almost secondary.
.

Click to expand...

That's fine, but then it doesn't meet my specifications of being erotica (which is OK, of course). Stories can have erotic passages without being erotica, but to me, the emotion of arousal, at least as a minimum, has to be at the core of the story for it to be erotica. There are mainstream novels with erotic moments in them. That doesn't make them erotica. Lolita is erotica to me, because the obsession with a form/object of sex is at the core of the story and sexual tension serving this exists throughout. Lots of other novels exist with steamy sex scenes but with some other theme at their core. I don't consider them erotica.

AwkwardMD said:

I also write some characters as intentionally unlikable or grating. I'm happy with that as long as the character has internal logic and consistent motivation.

Click to expand...

I like to write about unlikable characters too - it is a lot of fun although sometimes my characters are all sweetness and light - it depends on what type of story I am writing.

I find though that unlikable female characters can get away with a lot more than unlikable male characters.

For example, in my lesbian story 'The PTA Queen Bee & the Teen Rebel' the Queen Bee character is a 42-year-old married mother of four named Allison who dominates the PTA by bullying less assertive parents, works as a real estate broker where she engages in business practices that are borderline at best and secretly lusts after young women, eventually having an affair with an 18-year-old heavy metal loving rebel named Jenna. Jenna herself is also a total bitch - aggressive, foul-mouthed and with a smart attitude - and at the time of the story is suspended from her Catholic girls' boarding school for swearing at a nun.

In an Erotic Couplings story called 'Bridget the Bossy Bridezilla', the titular character is a spoiled, selfish and controlling yuppie who has a very odd relationship with her father, which only her long suffering fiancé Ben can see. Bridget treats Ben terribly most days and even worse when its that time of the month, but when he finally stands up for himself her vindictive and spiteful response is to cheat on him with his loser younger brother, whom she cannot stand.

If you flip the genders in these stories, I can't see a married middle aged man who bullies and lies as he lusts after money, power, and (secretly) young men before cheating with a rebellious 18-year-old boy being well-received. Likewise in the Bridget story who would want to read about a spoiled and controlling young man who treats his fiancée badly and cheats on her with her screw-up of a younger sister? Unlikable Mama's boys are not sexy regardless of looks, but I was still able to make a rotten-to-the-core Daddy's girl sexy.

Even likable characters could be perceived less positively with a gender flip. The titular female character in 'Mandy Makes a Man of Mark' is a perfectly nice 36-year-old single mother of two 18-year-old girls, but she still seduces an 18-year-old boy who lives across the street. If I wrote a story about a 36-year-old single father who seduces an 18-year-old female neighbor, I can't see it being so well received. Sure some would like it, but I think it would attract more negative feedback than positive.

.....

sr71plt said:

Do others write erotica with the desire/need for sex being central to their story and the motivation of their characters and the fulfillment of this goal being acceptable in the story outcome?

Click to expand...

I'm nowhere near that cookie-cutter. My characters' motivations are all over the map, and while they generally (not always) love sex and have it when available, it's rarely what I'm writing about at core. I tell stories that have sex, much more than I write sex stories, and even when a character starts out sex-obsessed, he generally comes around to a more balanced view in the end. (But my Mr. Jones is looking like a notable exception.)

I'd be bored writing characters for whom sex was the only relevant point. And it's hard to write a believable female character who feels that way. (Only one of my female characters wants as much as she can get and she has a few significant issues.)

But I'm not trying to make money on this stuff, at least yet. If I was I'd probably stay closer to a sex-centric groove.

holliday1960 said:

I'm completely confused now. So...sex isn't sex without a vagina? I'm not sure readers on lit give two whits what motivates a character. I found that to be a huge disappointment on Lit. Readers don't care WHY people fuck...they just want to know that they do. So much for all that character development.

Click to expand...

Oh I think a lot of readers enjoy all that character development. It's just it has to fit within the broad bounds of what they're looking for in a story here.

holliday1960 said:

I'm not sure readers on lit give two whits what motivates a character. I found that to be a huge disappointment on Lit. Readers don't care WHY people fuck...they just want to know that they do. So much for all that character development.

Click to expand...

I've often felt there were two sets of readers on Lit - the ones who like my stories, and everyone else, the ones who like the stories of most other authors here. My set is absolutely smaller, but they tell me things like "Thank goodness there's someone on this site who will build a world, develop a character and tell a story."

Readers need something to do during the refractory periods. If you don't want them to wander off, that's what plot is for.

holliday1960 said:

I'm completely confused now. So...sex isn't sex without a vagina? I'm not sure readers on lit give two whits what motivates a character. I found that to be a huge disappointment on Lit. Readers don't care WHY people fuck...they just want to know that they do. So much for all that character development.

Click to expand...

I think we have two fairly narrow definitions going on here.

JBJ's definition of sex probably excludes most of what other people call--and have ever called--sex. I suspect Eve sucked Adam's dick and they called it sex.

Pilot's definition of erotica is also very restrictive. I think his definition is one end of a range of possibilities, the other end being completely non-erotic. A lot of the erotica on this site falls in between the extremes.

sr71plt said:

That's fine, but then it doesn't meet my specifications of being erotica (which is OK, of course). Stories can have erotic passages without being erotica, but to me, the emotion of arousal, at least as a minimum, has to be at the core of the story for it to be erotica. There are mainstream novels with erotic moments in them. That doesn't make them erotica. Lolita is erotica to me, because the obsession with a form/object of sex is at the core of the story and sexual tension serving this exists throughout. Lots of other novels exist with steamy sex scenes but with some other theme at their core. I don't consider them erotica.

Click to expand...

Bingo imho. Plenty of books/stories have sex scenes whether 'hard' or 'soft' core, whether a bodice ripper, a mystery, thriller, whatever. Same way plenty of movies have a sex scene or at least a scene in a titty bar (so the producer's girlfriend can be in the movie). But if sex or the desire for sex or a sexual obsession isn't one of the main driving points then it's not erotica or word porn. It may have a hot scene but if it's really about growing up or finding a soul mate or solving a murder then that's what it's about.
I notice that many writers who frequent forums, including at Lit, tend to often say things like "I don't write sex stories, my stories may have sex in them if it makes sense to the plot," which is cool for what it is. Everyone is writing for themselves first and foremost but those that make no bones about primarily writing sex stories/erotica tend to visit places like AH less frequently if at all.

rutger5 said:

Bingo imho. Plenty of books/stories have sex scenes whether 'hard' or 'soft' core, whether a bodice ripper, a mystery, thriller, whatever. Same way plenty of movies have a sex scene or at least a scene in a titty bar (so the producer's girlfriend can be in the movie). But if sex or the desire for sex or a sexual obsession isn't one of the main driving points then it's not erotica or word porn.

Click to expand...

I disagree, and so does every definition for "erotica" I found on line.

This from the Oxford English dictionary:

"Literature or art intended to arouse sexual desire."

You can check any number of other dictionaries. The ones I saw were all similar. The definition does not imply that sex is a main theme at all, only that there is an intent to create arousal. And of course, humans can find all sorts of things to be arousing, and many of them aren't sex by JBJ's definition.

The Wikipedia article on "Erotica" also distinguishes between pornography and erotica by saying that the latter aspires to art. Given that distinction, a lot of stories that fit your definition aren't erotica. They're pornography.

.....

I think I would say yes, I think of sex being the bottom line and the prime motivator for both my characters and my plot. That's what makes it erotica to me.

In my opinion I think you hit nail on head with your comparisons of other genres that also include steamy sex. In movies for example, plenty of action movies include a very erotic sex scene, but the main driving factor that makes them what they are is the action. I think sex is the central idea when I write erotica, to varying degrees. They can consist of any plot, with many different "types" of scenes. But it is still essentially a story revolving around the sex, regardless of just how explicit it is.

If I were sitting and telling a friend a long story over drinks, and the entire point was to tell him about a hilariously absurd day, it wouldn't matter if it took place on top of a mountain, in a coal mine, in a neighbor's pool, or in the white house. The little details would change, but they would be driving toward the comedy of the situation... which is the entire point of the story. Same thing if I were telling him a story about an amazing girl I hooked up with. The plot or details would vary and thus make it unique from other stories I might recount, but the driving idea is the sex or erotic nature of the encounter.

So when I conjure plots, they usually revolve around the sex or the eroticism. (Not that sex is mandatory, but the sexuality or erotic nature is, to me). The sex becomes the, eh, central motivation for most other factors.

Explicit sex is a part of human life and these encounters have stories just as interesting as any other. That's kinda where I zoom in to. The story surrounding the erotic or sexual encounter are spokes on that wheel.