What's your philosophy on details?

jomar said:

I'm in the less is more, broad strokes camp. But it depends on what your shooting for...didn't American Psycho go over the top on consumerism details...

And Lee Child always notes Reacher is 6' 5" and hard as steel.

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In American Psycho the detailed description is used as a mechanism to illustrate the shallowness of the main character and his inability to emote - not for setting a scene or creating ambience.


It's true that the physical description of reacher is important in the books, but it's only a small part of Lee Child's definition of the character. We learn much more about him than his size. And often it comes out as part of the way people react when they see him. Not simply as a list. Compare this to the typical "numbers-fixated" Lit story where it often seems like the man has no other interest in or knowledge about his wife of ten years, except her haircolor and breast size...

HeyAll said:

I've seen this discussion here a few times.

Character Description

Generally speaking, there seems to be two schools of thought: One is that the more details there are, the better. The other is that certain details should be left up to the readers imagination, such as what the female character looks like.

Your thoughts? Have you evolved on this?

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I use the skirt rule: Long enough to cover the subject, short enough to keep it interesting.

Generally, that means a minimalist approach. I describe a few things that stand about a character - things that jump, visually, that you'd notice immediately if you saw them in person - and let the reader fill in the gaps.

Nothing bores me more than two paragraphs of pure, incredibly detailed description. That's like the author is screaming "HOLD ON, STORY IS ON PAUSE UNTIL YOU KNOW EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE OF CLOTHING SHE IS WEARING AS WELL AS HER CUP SIZE!!!" It's one of those cardinal sins that makes me itch to close the tab in my browser. It very loudly announces that what the author has written is blatant self-insert fanfiction drivel.

Here's a big example that everyone knows who is done very well: Harry Potter.

You can summarize everything we know about Harry very easily. He's got messy black hair. He has green eyes and glasses. He's got a lightning-bolt scar on his forehead.

And that's it. That's really all the book tells you. You get a vague sense of how tall he is compared to others, but there's no big paragraph that tells you all about his polka-dotted underwear. And the story is better for it.

/rant

If you went back to the turn of the last century there was a more... relaxed world I guess is a way of putting it.

Novels from that time will go into huge chapter long descriptions of everything. There is one story (the name escapes me at the moment) that the first four chapters in nothing but a description of a dinner party.

People then had the time to read. That was their entertainment. Time being the crucial word there. Now days there is never enough time. People snatch their reading in between whatever else they have to do.

In short moments, of brief reading.

The writing by that standard needs to follow the same path. If you give huge descriptions you will lose your reader.

They don't have the time to hear about every button on the pink chiffon evening gown, that she bought with money saved by selling eggs, half of them to the mayor of the town, who has had a secret crush on her since they went to school together and who hates eggs, but buys them from her just so he can watch her ass shake when she walks away from him every morning.


Avoid like the plague a police sketch artist description paragraph.

She was five foot four, blue eyed, with long brown hair. Her favorite color is Salmon pink and she buys all her dresses in that lovely shade. Her hips were wide and she always wore Victoria secret underwear under her dresses. Her 44DDD breasts straining the seams of that expensive lingerie to the point that all her "Secrets" were about to fall out.


While it may seem like a quick way to get a lot of information across to the reader to a lot of readers they will stop right there. So very disappointed in seeing that one paragraph they will quit reading.

My opinions, worth what you paid for them

MST

The go-to rule for visual detail: Your story has too much.

Even when you think you only have a little, you really have too much.

It is possible to write a story that has just enough visual detail, or possibly even too little. Just as it is possible to climb Mt. Everest or draw a Royal Flush on your first hand at poker. Such feats do happen.

But not to you.

StrangeLife said:

In American Psycho the detailed description is used as a mechanism to illustrate the shallowness of the main character and his inability to emote - not for setting a scene or creating ambience.

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What I said...depends on what you're shooting for.

It's true that the physical description of reacher is important in the books, but it's only a small part of Lee Child's definition of the character. We learn much more about him than his size. And often it comes out as part of the way people react when they see him. Not simply as a list. Compare this to the typical "numbers-fixated" Lit story where it often seems like the man has no other interest in or knowledge about his wife of ten years, except her haircolor and breast size...

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True and I get that. My point is that even the pros trot out stats depending on their goals.

MSTarot said:

If you went back to the turn of the last century there was a more... relaxed world I guess is a way of putting it.

Novels from that time will go into huge chapter long descriptions of everything. There is one story (the name escapes me at the moment) that the first four chapters in nothing but a description of a dinner party.

...

The writing by that standard needs to follow the same path. If you give huge descriptions you will loose your reader.

MST

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I finally quit reading Michener because he'd take 20 pages to describe a cup of coffee.

MSTarot said:

If you went back to the turn of the last century there was a more... relaxed world I guess is a way of putting it.

Novels from that time will go into huge chapter long descriptions of everything. There is one story (the name escapes me at the moment) that the first four chapters in nothing but a description of a dinner party.

People then had the time to read. That was their entertainment. Time being the crucial word there. Now days there is never enough time. People snatch their reading in between whatever else they have to do.

In short moments, of brief reading.

The writing by that standard needs to follow the same path. If you give huge descriptions you will loose your reader.

They don't have the time to hear about every button on the pink chiffon evening gown, that she bought with money saved by selling eggs, half of them to the mayor of the town, who has had a secret crush on her since they went to school together and who hates eggs, but buys them from her just so he can watch her ass shake when she walks away from him every morning.


Avoid like the plague a police sketch artist description paragraph.

She was five foot four, blue eyed, with long brown hair. Her favorite color is Salmon pink and she buys all her dresses in that lovely shade. Her hips were wide and she always wore Victoria secret underwear under her dresses. Her 44DDD breasts straining the seams of that expensive lingerie to the point that all her "Secrets" were about to fall out.


While it may seem like a quick way to get a lot of information across to the reader to a lot of readers they will stop right there. So very disappointed in seeing that one paragraph they will quit reading.

My opinions, worth what you paid for them

MST

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19TH century writing was descriptive because tv and movies didn't exist.

Everybody posting so far has pretty much said it all, And it's all very informative. I took notes.

I've evolved, a little bit in my posted stories, but I think more so in the ones I'm working on. I have put numbers in previous stories and re-reading them just sounds cheesy. I also like the idea of being minimalist in things like character and descriptions. Put in just what is needed. Let the character's actions in the story tell about his/her character, likes and dislikes. Let the reader do his job. And if you want to change the character in a subsequent chapter, then it's easier to fit in.

As it's already been said "Gigantor Melons" (or words to that effect) works better than "45DD". Just as "Taller than average" works better than 6' 5" or "2 meters". Things like "He easily fit into the MGA, as long as he didn't put the top up," work as well.

I like the idea of stretching out the sex scenes. Hadn't thought about that. I've always tried to think through things like,"how will his right arm work it's way into her blouse if I've already put it behind her back? - OK then put him on the other side, no, it's in a left hand drive car. Drat, women's buttons are on the other side." But that's probably too much detail, especially if I'm writing a story to be read by someone who's only holding his laptop with one hand.

Was it Erica Jong who called it a "zipless fuck"?

MSTarot said:

Avoid like the plague a police sketch artist description paragraph.

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I wrote one that starts with a formal description:

From September of 1928 a weekly advertisement accompanied by a portrait appeared in all the major European newspapers:

REWARD OF $1000 OFFERED — to any person providing information leading to the location of Josephine Hart, late of Massachusetts, daughter of Mr and Mrs Joseph Hart. Miss Hart is aged twenty-three, five feet eight inches tall, with brown hair and green eyes. Small round scar on back of left hand, beauty mark above left eye. Last seen in Paris, July 19th. Reward may be claimed at any office of Hart and Hayworth Shipping, Inc.

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The main purpose there was to establish "young heiress" and get readers wondering what happened to her, but it seemed like a convenient opportunity to throw out a little physical description for readers who like that sort of thing. I didn't go into cup size, though

I'm working on one now where I'm considering throwing in a security clearance report as an opportunity to get some necessary-but-dull backstory out of the way.

Bramblethorn said:

I wrote one that starts with a formal description:



The main purpose there was to establish "young heiress" and get readers wondering what happened to her, but it seemed like a convenient opportunity to throw out a little physical description for readers who like that sort of thing. I didn't go into cup size, though

I'm working on one now where I'm considering throwing in a security clearance report as an opportunity to get some necessary-but-dull backstory out of the way.

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When I was younger I read a lot of Sci Fi - pulp space opera type Sci Fi. It wasn't uncommon to have some sort of "Galactic Encyclopedia" entry at the beginning of the story, setting the scene and filling in backstory in much the same way.

Heck in some of the attempts in that genre I tired back in my teens I did the same thing. I'm sure I'll do it again. It works.

Great Idea by the way - the security clearance thing.

It's not the amount of details given, it's WHICH details you give. Precision with providing the right details makes details pop.

"He picked up the worn, old phone. . ."

vs.

"He spun his fingers around the dial and listened to the ratcheting sound. . ."

I believe the second puts one into the moment.

"...I picked up the old, rusty screwdriver and looked at the tip. The thing had seen far much more abuse than I had and hoped it was going to work. The small chunks out of the wooden handle made it a bitch to hold on to and turn, but it was this or face certain death if I did nothing. I jimmied the worn tip into the lock and picked up the hammer to strike it and laughed to myself loudly. My life depended on a piece of rusty metal and I noticed the Made in China stamp on the shank...."

In this case, the details are pertinent to the story, describing in some depth about a simple screwdriver. It sets up the action about to happen and provides an element of drama if it'll work or not because of the condition. Details need to be a part of the story to bring it to a greater sense of reality, but not so much as to detract from it.

HeyAll said:

Character Description
Generally speaking, there seems to be two schools of thought: One is that the more details there are, the better. The other is that certain details should be left up to the readers imagination, such as what the female character looks like.

Click to expand...

Depends on whom is being described when A side character gets less, maybe no more than "she was a cute redhead..." A main character more. And, typically, I break up those descriptions. The reader will be told right away that the girl has raven hair, but our hero will notice only later, perhaps, what great legs she's got. One can also use descriptions to further a plot. Instead of saying, "She was petite" it might be better to say, "He first saw her in the grocery store trying to get a can of soup off an upper shelf. On tiptoe, she still couldn't reach it..." Which tells the reader she's petite and explains how our couple meets (i.e. he gets the soup for her).

I do what you do as well, and keep to "voluptuous" rather than describing every curve. But I think it's important to put certain descriptions as near as possible to the introduction of the character. Because readers create a pictures right away. If you save the description of Sue until the middle of the story, then you risk the reader going "Huh? Wait a minute, I've been envisioning Sue as a Nordic blond, but now you tell me she has olive skin and raven black hair?!" They'll be thrown off.

I'll add that I'm not in that camp that feels descriptions are pointless and we shouldn't describe at all, but rather, let the reader imagine what they want. My primary reason for not going that way is because descriptions are useful when it comes to plot and dialogue. And especially sex scenes where there might be confusion over who is doing what. Instead of saying "Sue did this" and "Sue did that" you can say "One of the ladies was sucking his cock. He set a hand on her head and raven hair glided through his fingers..." And now the reader knows not only who is doing what, but gets extra sensations of sight and texture

Story, Feelings & Sex
My weakness is describing the details during sex. I'm not as good as other people are regarding sex.

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This is a weakness best gotten over At least if you want to reel in female readers. I've learned from feedback and popularity of stories that most female readers are pretty insatiable for long, slow, detailed sex scenes.

The trick is avoiding laundry lists: she did this, then this, then this....Whenever possible, provide feelings and reactions for almost every action, that's how you make sexual details come alive and grab readers: "His hot tongue made her nipples go hard and she gasped...." This has the added benefit of making detailed sex scenes more fun for you

MSTarot said:

If you went back to the turn of the last century there was a more... relaxed world I guess is a way of putting it.
The writing by that standard needs to follow the same path. If you give huge descriptions you will lose your reader.

They don't have the time to hear about every button on the pink chiffon evening gown, that she bought with money saved by selling eggs, half of them to the mayor of the town, who has had a secret crush on her since they went to school together and who hates eggs, but buys them from her just so he can watch her ass shake when she walks away from him every morning.

Avoid like the plague a police sketch artist description paragraph.

She was five foot four, blue eyed, with long brown hair. Her favourite colour is Salmon pink and she buys all her dresses in that lovely shade. Her hips were wide and she always wore Victoria secret underwear under her dresses. Her 44DDD breasts straining the seams of that expensive lingerie to the point that all her "Secrets" were about to fall out.

My opinions, worth what you paid for them
MST

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I think there is a place & time for either of these.

This one says a lot about her and that she's prepared to work and that she's pretty; whether the Mayoral interest is pertinent is to be discovered later in the story.

This one, however, is a bit of a mash-up. There's a joke in there, too, but one I suspect might better be made by one of the characters (I don't like the 44DDD description, either, but that's a personal view)

RoyceConnors said:

"...I picked up the old, rusty screwdriver and looked at the tip. The thing had seen far much more abuse than I had and hoped it was going to work. The small chunks out of the wooden handle made it a bitch to hold on to and turn, but it was this or face certain death if I did nothing. I jimmied the worn tip into the lock and picked up the hammer to strike it and laughed to myself loudly. My life depended on a piece of rusty metal and I noticed the Made in China stamp on the shank...."

In this case, the details are pertinent to the story, describing in some depth about a simple screwdriver. It sets up the action about to happen and provides an element of drama if it'll work or not because of the condition. Details need to be a part of the story to bring it to a greater sense of reality, but not so much as to detract from it.

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I liked this one. It says a lot in a short time; desperation, minimum effect and a comment on the modern tool quality.

I'm fairly minimalist myself when writing a story. But one thing I do have fun with is describing in detail something that most people wouldn't describe in detail. A man's hands, for example. Strong, calloused, long fingers, well manicured but with dirty fingernails, two rings but none of them a wedding ring, a scar along the thumb of the left hand ... these tell me more about a man than the color of his eyes, the size of his cock, or his height and weight. Details tell stories, but they have to advance the story you want to tell. If they don't pull their weight, out they go.

Some writers choose to describe technical items. Whether or not those details contribute to the storyline, they certainly add flavor. I'm thinking of folks here describing muscle cars or bass boats or (for me) cameras and maybe musical instruments. (Yes, I *do* love my German-made Koch {Hohner} Chromatic 10 harmonica in C with semi-chromatic Richter tuning, only 160g and it does things no blues harp can match. And of course the Lee Oskar modular harps, especially in Melody Maker {reversed Richter} tuning.) Such may be gratuitous but spicy.

Hypoxia said:

Some writers choose to describe technical items. Whether or not those details contribute to the storyline, they certainly add flavor. I'm thinking of folks here describing muscle cars or bass boats or (for me) cameras and maybe musical instruments. (Yes, I *do* love my German-made Koch {Hohner} Chromatic 10 harmonica in C with semi-chromatic Richter tuning, only 160g and it does things no blues harp can match. And of course the Lee Oskar modular harps, especially in Melody Maker {reversed Richter} tuning.) Such may be gratuitous but spicy.

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Sure, but we both know it's all about the lip, tongue and hand action.

Youtube - John Popper - Harmonica God!

John Popper and his Harps.