International Women's Day - Things we need to work on

On a more serious note:

Do women think there is something that needs to be fixed regarding women in BDSM communities or how women are treated specifically during BDSM activities?

I'm not a woman, but I think that depends. For some the best present would be a good spanking. While others would prefer a more romantic evening on that day.

I think the main idea is for men to follow the whishes and indulge our women during that day, even if that means breaking the character a bit or taking the time off from the 24/7 relationship. But that, again, depends.

As for dominant women, I don't really know what should be changed. Just make her as happy as you can, but you are often doing that even on normal days, so... The same change as everyone else.

I think (or hope?) what happens within the BDSM community is maybe better or participants tend to be more aware than general society, but the problems of society in general are still reflected within the BDSM community. I think of these things which are common complaints among women I see online (I can't speak for more in-person interactions as I don't do that sort of thing).

- The automatic assumption that women are submissive.
- Female dominants being treated as fetish dispensaries.
- Complaints about female pros which often leads to bashing sex workers. Pro Ds are providing goods/services for money, fuck off if you can't afford it they don't owe you free play because you think they should peg your ass out of mutual interest.

Added:
- Take reports of abuse seriously, even if the abuser is a "community leader."
- Recognize and take seriously that women can be abusers.

In all honesty, I see these questions and get a little tired because the people that probably should see it, won't (and if they do they don't give a shit). And often when women say there is a problem there's at least one dude that pops in to say the women are exaggerating or lying about what happens because: A. They don't do it themselves, B. They've never seen it happen, and/or C. It doesn't appear to happen to women they're close to. <- Same shit, different thread.

As for things that should change during BDSM activities? If they've consented I have no problems with what is done to/with/or by women. That's a choice the individual makes.

The automatic assumption that women are submissive.

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Many reasons for that one.
Historically, women were often in a submissive role or position in the family. You don't hear about many male harems for a female empress. You don't hear about many women in charge at all, to begin with. Women's rights were much more limited than male's, and this trends over almost the entire planet and all cultures.
That's the main one.

And then there's physical aspect. Men are stronger, physically. Women are weaker. Where that places them in the eyes of common folk? As followers, not as leaders. It's not practical when the "weak" one takes the lead.

And I would argue that even today, despite the "equal rights" movements, the majority of women still take the submissive role. Not in a fetish meaning of the word - but in a more common one.
Men are expected by the society to be better, to provide for the family, to be the strong and reliable one, to take care of problems if they arise.

Naturally, all of this is essentially a very narrow way of thinking about things. But that's where the roots of the problem are, anyway. People always just assume things. That doesn't mean a female can't be a great leader or to have a domineering personality.

But for most people, when you put an abstract idea of male and female side by side, then subconsciously they would place female as being weaker, more submissive, even stupider than male. That's stereotypes for you. That's the first thing that clicks in people's minds. That's where the assumption is coming from. It is reinforced by experience, and it goes around in circles.

The funny thing is that because of social reinforcement there really ARE more submissive girls than there are dominant ones. Because that's the role that the society STILL "expects" from a woman.

Now go ahead, kick my ass for being a misogynist or something.

Nezhul said:

Many reasons for that one.

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The reasons why I get a hard-on when I see a naked woman date back to the cave men - this does not mean that I'm forced to behave like one.

Anyway - the thread is about what to do from the point we are at now, not how we got to this point in the first place.

We are positioned really well to lead when it comes to consent, communication and how to navigate sexuality without being toxic, if we want to take the opportunity, and stop being such hypocrites.

Instead, people in community tend to circle the wagons to defend rapists, excuse everything and generally be garbage given a chance.

So, unfortunately, I think as goes the culture so goes the subculture.

People keep wanting to essentialize female submission's popularity with biology and it's amusing pseudoscience in a brave new iphone enabled world. The reason there are so many more submissive women than submissive men is because we are drafted into emotional labor in addition to capitalism and submission gives people a bit of a directorial "break" from things - no kidding women need that/want that even more than men.

It's not that women are "weaker" or "more fragile" it's that we are more stressed. More stressed on average from non-paying labor and men's perpetual bullshit. Add a heaping helping of stress if not white, and/or not hetero.

Don't like that conclusion ask yourself why we're the majority of autoimmune cases if you love bio-based-sociology so much.

(most men are *also* sexually submissive, dirty secret corollary - EVERYBODY is stressed by the system as is)

Unpopular opinion: I do think BDSM is a reactionary sexuality, my own included.
I don't think reactionary sexualities need to be "fixed" or even can be, so I don't see this as a problem, the population skew. I'm much more interested in how rigorous we are about consent and whether we're a safe place for women and non-binaries to be.

TLDR version: talk about consent, perpetually, even more than we already do. Cut off dangerous people, fix the "broken stairs" and stop being polite at the expense of vulnerable people's comfort.

These are excellent points, Netzach. I was going to post more about emotional labor but found my post to be more of a rant and rather unproductive. Those kinds of stresses you mentioned hugely impact the lives of women and non-binary people. One of the points I ended up deleting was the over romanticized ways we tend to speak about BDSM and the kinds of relationships involved. Plainly speaking about it goes a long way in helping to navigate through consent/negotiation. Most people have common sense when they navigate through life and relationships with others, add d/s or BDSM and the abundance of "it's the holy grail of trust and honesty" and you get people that are suddenly unsure of themselves and how to handle situations that are quite literally referred to as existing in another world.

Don't like that conclusion ask yourself why we're the majority of autoimmune cases if you love bio-based-sociology so much.

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I'd love to discuss this, but I don't really want to bring the thread off-topic.

All I will say that those things I wrote - I don't support that POV. I was merely providing reason for one of MeekMe's points. Society DOES think all those things. Consciously or not. They are the reason for why people tend to place women as submissives.

That doesn't mean they are good reasons. In fact they are most probably delusional, or at the very least their influence is exagerrated.

What really influences us is the society itself. From our first days we are forced into gender roles that are considered the norm. Women must cook, clean and raise children. Men must make a career and fix things. Women can't be rude or vulgar - but for men it's Okay-ish. Men can't really wear silk, satin and frills. Only women can. Girls should play dolls and tea parties, boys should play with soldiers and toy cars.

And this goes on and on. And this builds and affects your mind more than you think.

And as far as submissiveness goes - I believe that there are a lot of subtle and not so subtle ways that the society keeps telling us that Men are the ones who should be in charge, and women are not good for that. Naturally, many women grow submissive, because they are exposed to male domination everywhere - in the family, on TV, in politics - EVERYWHERE.

I never said I agree with this. I could discuss this a long time. I already made this post longer than I wanted.

To reiterate:
I don't think that women are naturally (biologically) submissive.
I do think that there are currently more submissive women than dominant ones.
I do think things are starting to change in favor of being whatever you are, but we are not quite there.
I think that society enforces (or expects) submissive role on women and dominant role on men.
I do believe in equal rights to a point of equal responsibilities, but past that pont the rights and responsibilities should be different. Now, that doesn't mean someone should have less rights or that rights should be gender-specific. They should be person-specific. I don't believe genders will ever be truly equal. Because our physical and emotional needs are biologically unequal and never will be. Unless we count genetic engineering ofc.
That previous point has nothing to do with submissiveness. That's a social role, not a biological need. Even if it is now ingrained there somewhere in female genes, the influence would be minimal.

I love your brain, Netz.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a gendered phenomenon, but I'm pretty sure most women in here who've ever presented themselves as even slightly submissive will have experienced the approach of the 'dom' who thinks that two exchanges means he can start bossing you around and generally be an arse. I tend to feel like these guys are just fundamentally lazy, and/or a bit misogynistic - positioning themselves as 'dom' means they can make the 'sub' do most of the work in the encounter, and/or they get to just treat a woman like shit under the guise that she wants that. Obviously some women do, but it takes more than a couple of PMS to establish that - IMO at least - and I'm not entirely sure that it's a process that's best based in a general dislike of women.

Is that a gendered thing, or does it happen with female 'doms' too?
(I"m also aware that it's not really a behaviour that's part of the BDSM community - hence the scare quotes around 'dom', so it's possibly a little off-topic.)

Those are not doms, those are called bullies.

I find that dominating someone is more work than vanilla. And submitting is still more work than vanilla, but less than dominating. So yeah, I don't know.

KimGordon67 said:

I'm not entirely sure if this is a gendered phenomenon, but I'm pretty sure most women in here who've ever presented themselves as even slightly submissive will have experienced the approach of the 'dom' who thinks that two exchanges means he can start bossing you around and generally be an arse. I tend to feel like these guys are just fundamentally lazy, and/or a bit misogynistic - positioning themselves as 'dom' means they can make the 'sub' do most of the work in the encounter, and/or they get to just treat a woman like shit under the guise that she wants that. Obviously some women do, but it takes more than a couple of PMS to establish that - IMO at least - and I'm not entirely sure that it's a process that's best based in a general dislike of women.

Is that a gendered thing, or does it happen with female 'doms' too?
(I"m also aware that it's not really a behaviour that's part of the BDSM community - hence the scare quotes around 'dom', so it's possibly a little off-topic.)

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It's been talked about before, but the basic idea is that if a woman is on a website such as Lit, she's indiscriminate in who she fucks. Some men are bad at rejection when they find out otherwise and this is pretty well documented in the Asshat thread. With that said, sometimes I think guys learn about d/s, or read the CliffsNotes, and turn up with the idea that if they just call themselves dominant they'll find easy fuckmeats called submissives.

Dommes sometimes get messages from male subs begging them to dominate. Hell, I've received messages from male subs begging me to dominate them. ;; And then there are male supremacists that believe women can never be dominant that think dommes are just lying to themselves and will see their true calling when they get a glimpse of his big swinging dick.

MeekMe said:

It's been talked about before, but the basic idea is that if a woman is on a website such as Lit, she's indiscriminate in who she fucks. Some men are bad at rejection when they find out otherwise and this is pretty well documented in the Asshat thread. With that said, sometimes I think guys learn about d/s, or read the CliffsNotes, and turn up with the idea that if they just call themselves dominant they'll find easy fuckmeats called submissives.

Dommes sometimes get messages from male subs begging them to dominate. Hell, I've received messages from male subs begging me to dominate them. ;; And then there are male supremacists that believe women can never be dominant that think dommes are just lying to themselves and will see their true calling when they get a glimpse of his big swinging dick.

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I think that's what I was talking about ... but obviously they're not really part of the BDSM community Primalex was initially addressing ... are they?

Dommes sometimes get messages from male subs begging them to dominate. Hell, I've received messages from male subs begging me to dominate them. ;; And then there are male supremacists that believe women can never be dominant that think dommes are just lying to themselves and will see their true calling when they get a glimpse of his big swinging dick.

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Haha.

But that got me thinking. Don't you think that any kinky person can switch with a right partner? Like, if you are a submissive, under certain circumstances you may enjoy dominating. And dominants may enjoy submitting sometimes.

I personally don't know the answer. I'm like that myself - I can enjoy both. I can't see wanting ONLY one thing and not the other. I can survive just fine without kink at all though.

KimGordon67 said:

I think that's what I was talking about ... but obviously they're not really part of the BDSM community Primalex was initially addressing ... are they?

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These are people that exist in the BDSM community. I didn't say they weren't dominant (or into BDSM), just that they got the idea that it was an easy lay. So these guys may very well be dominant and have an actual desire to have authority over someone, but they go about it badly, or at least a way that you don't really like. And even if they aren't actually dominant or into BDSM, they still exist within the community.

The guy in your inbox may be dominant and may be demanding your submission after two messages because that's how he wants to do it. OTOH, maybe he's just a douchenozzle (abuser) looking for newbies that don't know any better. It seems that it actually works sometimes. So~ many women asking questions like "I'm new and don't know what I'm doing, this guy messaged me and said he was claiming me, can I say no?" (P_-) And here's where I mention speaking plainly, again. Would you let a guy message you and declare he was your boyfriend? No? Then why would this be any different? And there are those that go along with newbie hunters that finally come around with more alarming questions when they start to get a clue that something isn't right.

KimGordon67 said:

tend to feel like these guys are just fundamentally lazy, and/or a bit misogynistic - positioning themselves as 'dom' means they can make the 'sub' do most of the work in the encounter, and/or they get to just treat a woman like shit under the guise that she wants that. Obviously some women do, but it takes more than a couple of PMS to establish that - IMO at least - and I'm not entirely sure that it's a process that's best based in a general dislike of women.

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Actually, there are in my experience as many women around who really have no interest in conversation and just want to have some version of sex as there are who insist on getting to know someone before etc.

Thinking about it, the romance & relationship submissive seems to be even the minority in my experience.

Maybe women need to learn more about women than men...?

*shrugs*

KimGordon67 said:

I'm not entirely sure if this is a gendered phenomenon, but I'm pretty sure most women in here who've ever presented themselves as even slightly submissive will have experienced the approach of the 'dom' who thinks that two exchanges means he can start bossing you around and generally be an arse. I tend to feel like these guys are just fundamentally lazy, and/or a bit misogynistic - positioning themselves as 'dom' means they can make the 'sub' do most of the work in the encounter, and/or they get to just treat a woman like shit under the guise that she wants that. Obviously some women do, but it takes more than a couple of PMS to establish that - IMO at least - and I'm not entirely sure that it's a process that's best based in a general dislike of women.

Is that a gendered thing, or does it happen with female 'doms' too?
(I"m also aware that it's not really a behaviour that's part of the BDSM community - hence the scare quotes around 'dom', so it's possibly a little off-topic.)

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IME, this is often a Top/Dom thing, especially noob Tops/Doms. Not knowing what to do with designated power, people will often flex and just be assholes.

I think women are discouraged by others from doing that faster, on average. Men aren't challenged/pushed back against because, you know, it's not OK to critique someone just for being um, different? Unless they're female and then everything is fair game, from her makeup to her flogging technique.

Whereas if you're new and a woman and making an ass of yourself someone will either knock you down or ideally provide "psst, your slip is showing" correction among equals.

This isn't to say that "broken stairs" are always male. Or that all lurking dangers are assholes and all assholes are a problem. (some people like assholes?) Some people know all the right things to say and the right ways to say them and they are the problem people in the community.

There's a Top/Dom favoring bias in the scene as well, especially favoring masculine expressions of power, though not always male.

Primalex said:

Actually, there are in my experience as many women around who really have no interest in conversation and just want to have some version of sex as there are who insist on getting to know someone before etc.

Thinking about it, the romance & relationship submissive seems to be even the minority in my experience.

Maybe women need to learn more about women than men...?

*shrugs*

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I wasn't meaning to suggest that 'romance and relationship' submission is some sort of aspirational ideal ... but there's something about these guys that just makes my skin crawl. And they're astoundingly bad at hearing 'no', or a whole lot of other things that don't fit within their paradigm.
I suppose blaming those books/that movie would be the obvious thing ... but they really do seem to come with a completely preloaded idea of what it means to be 'dom', and the wishes of the other person are kind of irrelevant. Maybe that works for some women ...

Nezhul said:

I'd love to discuss this, but I don't really want to bring the thread off-topic.

All I will say that those things I wrote - I don't support that POV. I was merely providing reason for one of MeekMe's points. Society DOES think all those things. Consciously or not. They are the reason for why people tend to place women as submissives.

That doesn't mean they are good reasons. In fact they are most probably delusional, or at the very least their influence is exagerrated.

What really influences us is the society itself. From our first days we are forced into gender roles that are considered the norm. Women must cook, clean and raise children. Men must make a career and fix things. Women can't be rude or vulgar - but for men it's Okay-ish. Men can't really wear silk, satin and frills. Only women can. Girls should play dolls and tea parties, boys should play with soldiers and toy cars.

And this goes on and on. And this builds and affects your mind more than you think.

And as far as submissiveness goes - I believe that there are a lot of subtle and not so subtle ways that the society keeps telling us that Men are the ones who should be in charge, and women are not good for that. Naturally, many women grow submissive, because they are exposed to male domination everywhere - in the family, on TV, in politics - EVERYWHERE.

I never said I agree with this. I could discuss this a long time. I already made this post longer than I wanted.

To reiterate:
I don't think that women are naturally (biologically) submissive.
I do think that there are currently more submissive women than dominant ones.
I do think things are starting to change in favor of being whatever you are, but we are not quite there.
I think that society enforces (or expects) submissive role on women and dominant role on men.
I do believe in equal rights to a point of equal responsibilities, but past that pont the rights and responsibilities should be different. Now, that doesn't mean someone should have less rights or that rights should be gender-specific. They should be person-specific. I don't believe genders will ever be truly equal. Because our physical and emotional needs are biologically unequal and never will be. Unless we count genetic engineering ofc.
That previous point has nothing to do with submissiveness. That's a social role, not a biological need. Even if it is now ingrained there somewhere in female genes, the influence would be minimal.

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This raises an interesting point because I believe that EVERYONE is naturally submissive to a person in a stronger position.

Humans tend to submit in order to buy time to gain strength (physical or strength of will) to rebel against, or leave, the situation requiring submission. But, until they do, they submit. There is no gender gap in this, men and women are both equally susceptible.

HisArpy said:

This raises an interesting point because I believe that EVERYONE is naturally submissive to a person in a stronger position.

Humans tend to submit in order to buy time to gain strength (physical or strength of will) to rebel against, or leave, the situation requiring submission. But, until they do, they submit.

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Then humans are naturally murderers, because they rather kill than die. They are naturally thieves, because they rather steal than starve.

and so on.

I don't think we share the same definition of "naturally".