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July 2015 Challenge: The Imitation Game

Tzara said:
I'm probably supposed to be neutral, but this poem is just superb. Really, really good.

Please go read it.
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I'll guess gm, and I agree, once I got over the shock of beginning the source, ( a new poet/poem for me) the response was satisfying, I'll go write in live now to get over my frustrations to be writing like that
 
I've posted another really good poem on the response thread. Go read it. And we're getting close to the end of the challenge. I, actually, will be away on the day I said this ends, July 17, due to a "personal celebration." :cool:

So, preferably, get your entries in before the 17th, but if you're day or two late, it will probably work.

I'll put names to poems when I get back--probably on the 20th or so.

Peace. Out.
 
HarryHill said:
well, I did one, harder than I thought, and, in reading (haven't made it past the first page yet) found more parody's (to my mind) than true imitators, was fun :eek: and stretching.
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I was afraid to participate in this contest, lest I write a parody. However, someone upon whose sound judgment I depend caused me to reconsider.

Johannes Brahms had only one composition student, Gustav Jenner, and fortunately, Jenner wrote a book in which he records all his memories and impressions of Brahms. Brahms gave him an exercise, which was to analyze a piano sonata by Mozart, and then write his own sonata in which he exactly copied the harmonic and development structure of the one by Mozart. I tried this myself -- it was rather eerie, I had the sense of inhabiting Mozart's mind. My friend suggested to me that this poetry imitation should serve the same purpose, and I realized then that I ought to give it a shot.

I have a question on a different topic. I'm the new kid around these parts, and I hope I don't speak out of turn. Have people here ever discussed scansion? I see that a number of people have written imitation tributes to poems that are rhymed and metered. The original poems follow the meter strictly, but in some of the tributes I have seen, the meter frequently derails. It is not difficult to write in regular meter -- you simply have to get accustomed to hearing the stressed and unstressed syllables in what you write, and adjust your writing so that you stick to the pattern you have chosen (or the one in the poem to which you give homage.) It will quickly become second nature once you begin to practice scansion.
 
AlwaysHungry said:
I have a question on a different topic. I'm the new kid around these parts, and I hope I don't speak out of turn. Have people here ever discussed scansion? I see that a number of people have written imitation tributes to poems that are rhymed and metered. The original poems follow the meter strictly, but in some of the tributes I have seen, the meter frequently derails. It is not difficult to write in regular meter -- you simply have to get accustomed to hearing the stressed and unstressed syllables in what you write, and adjust your writing so that you stick to the pattern you have chosen (or the one in the poem to which you give homage.) It will quickly become second nature once you begin to practice scansion.
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I was curious about that myself, so I did a quick search of the forum to see if there were any mentions or discussion. It's a couple of years old, and I haven't had a chance to read through it yet, but there's a short thread on scansion. It might be worth reviving for further discussion.
 
Lyricalli said:
I was curious about that myself, so I did a quick search of the forum to see if there were any mentions or discussion. It's a couple of years old, and I haven't had a chance to read through it yet, but there's a short thread on scansion. It might be worth reviving for further discussion.
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another one of Twelveoone's threads
 
O SING unto my roundelay,
O drop the briny tear with me;
Dance no more at holyday,
Like a running river be:

Twelveoone is dead,
Gone to his death-bed

Lost to his own poesy.
 
AlwaysHungry said:
I have a question on a different topic. I'm the new kid around these parts, and I hope I don't speak out of turn. Have people here ever discussed scansion? I see that a number of people have written imitation tributes to poems that are rhymed and metered. The original poems follow the meter strictly, but in some of the tributes I have seen, the meter frequently derails. It is not difficult to write in regular meter -- you simply have to get accustomed to hearing the stressed and unstressed syllables in what you write, and adjust your writing so that you stick to the pattern you have chosen (or the one in the poem to which you give homage.) It will quickly become second nature once you begin to practice scansion.
Click to expand...
There have been, through the years, a lot of threads and/or arguments over scansion, meter, rhyme and prosody in general--whether scansion accurately represents the poem's dynamics, whether metrical poetry should even be written in modern times (i.e. everything should be in free verse), whether poets should avoid rhyme, etc.

Here the last one I started on the topic. Feel free to post to either this or to 1201's thread on scansion that Lyricalli linked, or start your own thread to discuss it. There is no "speaking out of turn" here as long as the conversation is respectful (which it has in the past often not been, particularly on this topic).

My personal experience with meter is similar to yours--if you read a lot of metrical poetry and try to write a lot of it, it gets much easier to hear the meter. But it's also my experience, from several different poetry classes, that this is not true for a lot of people; they have a terrible time trying to pick it up. I myself sometimes "force" the reading in my head and only notice that later.

When you throw in the variations on a particular meter--anacrusis, catalexis, substituted feet, alexandrines, etc.--it becomes very hard for a lot of people to feel comfortable with metrical writing.
 
I think of it as learning the grammar of poetry. People may prefer free verse, but if they are paying tribute to a classical poet, it helps to be able to speak that poet's language.
 
AlwaysHungry said:
I think of it as learning the grammar of poetry. People may prefer free verse, but if they are paying tribute to a classical poet, it helps to be able to speak that poet's language.
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I think your argument assumes that the person writing an imitation wants to be entirely true to the original, which in some cases would include a specific rhythm as well as theme and other features. Maybe that's not the case and the poet wants to use the original as a jumping off point for their own voice, or some blend of the two. Granted that's not an "imitation," but so what? The great thing about poetry is that you can try whatever you can imagine and see where it takes you. I think that has been the case with a bunch of the responses to this challenge. And maybe where a poem doesn't succeed in meter, it triumphs in some other way that it might not have were the writer laser focused on stress patterns. Just my opinion. :)
 
Angeline said:
I think your argument assumes that the person writing an imitation wants to be entirely true to the original, which in some cases would include a specific rhythm as well as theme and other features. Maybe that's not the case and the poet wants to use the original as a jumping off point for their own voice, or some blend of the two. Granted that's not an "imitation," but so what? The great thing about poetry is that you can try whatever you can imagine and see where it takes you. I think that has been the case with a bunch of the responses to this challenge. And maybe where a poem doesn't succeed in meter, it triumphs in some other way that it might not have were the writer laser focused on stress patterns. Just my opinion. :)
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I agree with what you are saying. My impression, however is that in the poems I that caught my eye, the writer was making a sincere effort to write poetry in the meter of the imitated poem, but the effort stumbled.

Of course, this was intended to be a learning exercise, but as artists I think we ought to aspire to walk and chew gum at the same time. The poems which have endured over years, decades, and centuries are the ones that succeeded in every way -- musicality, profundity, aesthetic perfection. We may not reach that standard, but we should aim for it.
 
AlwaysHungry said:
I agree with what you are saying. My impression, however is that in the poems I that caught my eye, the writer was making a sincere effort to write poetry in the meter of the imitated poem, but the effort stumbled.

Of course, this was intended to be a learning exercise, but as artists I think we ought to aspire to walk and chew gum at the same time. The poems which have endured over years, decades, and centuries are the ones that succeeded in every way -- musicality, profundity, aesthetic perfection. We may not reach that standard, but we should aim for it.
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I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. If we only imitated what came before how would we progress? There are many poems that are musical and profound, etc., that are not metered lines. What constitutes great poetry is a matter of opinion and fluid.

It will be interesting once we know who wrote what to let individuals respond as to their intentions.
 
Angeline said:
I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. If we only imitated what came before how would we progress? There are many poems that are musical and profound, etc., that are not metered lines. What constitutes great poetry is a matter of opinion and fluid.

It will be interesting once we know who wrote what to let individuals respond as to their intentions.
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No, I am not saying that a poem must be metered to be musical or profound. And we need not imitate what came before in order to progress -- however, in this particular poetry challenge, we are attempting to do something like that, as I understand it.

The question of whether there are universal standards for what constitutes great art, or whether it strictly a matter of personal taste, has been debated for a long time, and I am confident that it will continue to be debated for a long time.
 
AlwaysHungry said:
No, I am not saying that a poem must be metered to be musical or profound. And we need not imitate what came before in order to progress -- however, in this particular poetry challenge, we are attempting to do something like that, as I understand it.

The question of whether there are universal standards for what constitutes great art, or whether it strictly a matter of personal taste, has been debated for a long time, and I am confident that it will continue to be debated for a long time.
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Understood. I'm just saying that I think people did not necessarily stick strickly to imitating. I didn't, either because I got other ideas as I wrote or because I made a choice to stick an off word in--a near rhyme or extra word, whatever. No that's not following the rules, but I'm not good with poetry rules!

And I really don't think I'm alone in that approach, but we'll see.
 
In my entry, I used meter, but not the same one as did the poem I chose. I didn't feel that it was within my humble powers to actually imitate, but Tzara said that being inspired by the poem was enough.
 
AlwaysHungry said:
No, I am not saying that a poem must be metered to be musical or profound. And we need not imitate what came before in order to progress -- however, in this particular poetry challenge, we are attempting to do something like that, as I understand it.

The question of whether there are universal standards for what constitutes great art, or whether it strictly a matter of personal taste, has been debated for a long time, and I am confident that it will continue to be debated for a long time.
Click to expand...

Angeline said:
Understood. I'm just saying that I think people did not necessarily stick strickly to imitating. I didn't, either because I got other ideas as I wrote or because I made a choice to stick an off word in--a near rhyme or extra word, whatever. No that's not following the rules, but I'm not good with poetry rules!

And I really don't think I'm alone in that approach, but we'll see.
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This is going to sound like double talk. It isn't. I agree with the both of you for different reasons. What drove it home for me was bflagsst's comment earlier in the thread about how the poems posted to that point weren't really imitations. He can speak for himself, but I think that was Tzara's stated intention at the beginning of the challenge.

I looked at the one I submitted and had to agree with bflagsst. So I did the next one according to the guideline. I didn't like the result as much.

What it comes down to for me is if you recognized writing as a discipline, imitation is a good exercise. If the original serves as a springboard to write something original and satisfying to you and hopefully others, so much the better.

I said this before but it deserves my repeating it: I liked how this challenge made me delve into the source poem in a way I may not have otherwise, and that includes scansion. What I did with that, of course, is another matter.
 
greenmountaineer said:
This is going to sound like double talk. It isn't. I agree with the both of you for different reasons. What drove it home for me was bflagsst's comment earlier in the thread about how the poems posted to that point weren't really imitations. He can speak for himself, but I think that was Tzara's stated intention at the beginning of the challenge.

I looked at the one I submitted and had to agree with bflagsst. So I did the next one according to the guideline. I didn't like the result as much.

What it comes down to for me is if you recognized writing as a discipline, imitation is a good exercise. If the original serves as a springboard to write something original and satisfying to you and hopefully others, so much the better.

I said this before but it deserves my repeating it: I liked how this challenge made me delve into the source poem in a way I may not have otherwise, and that includes scansion. What I did with that, of course, is another matter.
Click to expand...

I do agree that this challenge made me look at the source poems I used much more critically than I would have were I just reading them. That has been a good experience and one I hope to apply to future reading. And as you know I am impressed with people who seem to have an ear for hearing rhythm in poetry. And yes I believe it can be learned, but like Tzara said, some of us find it quite difficult. So if folks choose to employ it or not--under the name of imitation or inspiration, good. But it's not the be all and end all in poetry if people don't use it, for whatever reason. And to suggest that those who don't do it need to learn to "walk and chew gum at the same time" shows a lack of understanding and maybe some meanspiritedness. But that's just my opinion. :)
 
Angeline said:
I do agree that this challenge made me look at the source poems I used much more critically than I would have were I just reading them. That has been a good experience and one I hope to apply to future reading. And as you know I am impressed with people who seem to have an ear for hearing rhythm in poetry. And yes I believe it can be learned, but like Tzara said, some of us find it quite difficult. So if folks choose to employ it or not--under the name of imitation or inspiration, good. But it's not the be all and end all in poetry if people don't use it, for whatever reason. And to suggest that those who don't do it need to learn to "walk and chew gum at the same time" shows a lack of understanding and maybe some meanspiritedness. But that's just my opinion. :)
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My apologies for the poor choice of words. I'm mainly a musician, not a poet, and I'm thoroughly stuck in the 19th century.
 
Angeline said:
I do agree that this challenge made me look at the source poems I used much more critically than I would have were I just reading them. That has been a good experience and one I hope to apply to future reading. And as you know I am impressed with people who seem to have an ear for hearing rhythm in poetry. And yes I believe it can be learned, but like Tzara said, some of us find it quite difficult. So if folks choose to employ it or not--under the name of imitation or inspiration, good. But it's not the be all and end all in poetry if people don't use it, for whatever reason. And to suggest that those who don't do it need to learn to "walk and chew gum at the same time" shows a lack of understanding and maybe some meanspiritedness. But that's just my opinion. :)
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I agree. When I first started to take poetry seriously, the structure of formal poetry was very appealing to me. That isn't to say it no longer does. One of my favorite poets, Anthony Hecht, did wonders with it, and I admire most of what Dana Gioia does, just to cite 2 examples. When I began reading more, I discovered just as many "poetic devices" for lack of a better term, except for those most identified with formal poetry, exist with free verse. I think the downside of formal poetry is that it can sound too contrived, and some of so-called free verse of modern poetry movements is so disparate, it leaves me scratching my head, asking "What did (s)he just say?"
 
AlwaysHungry said:
My apologies for the poor choice of words. I'm mainly a musician, not a poet, and I'm thoroughly stuck in the 19th century.
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No worries. Like you, I just spoke my mind. And btw my undergraduate field of study was 19th-century English lit, emphasis on the novel. But then I got seduced by modern poetry. :rose:
 
bflagsst said:
O SING unto my roundelay,
O drop the briny tear with me;
Dance no more at holyday,
Like a running river be:

Twelveoone is dead,
Gone to his death-bed

Lost to his own poesy.
Click to expand...
twelveoone is dead?
say it ain't so.
long live twelveoone!
 
AlwaysHungry said:
In my entry, I used meter, but not the same one as did the poem I chose. I didn't feel that it was within my humble powers to actually imitate, but Tzara said that being inspired by the poem was enough.
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quite so - what began as an imitate a poet or poem became more open, thusly:
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=68868479&postcount=5
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personally, i didn't come up with anything new for this challenge; the piece i offered was written without any intent to seriously emulate, only an acceptance of trying to write freer, bigger, and to address topics more universally.
 
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