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Votes aren't that important. BUT...

But you ARE giving offense. You're saying you can see heteros getting separate topic categories but not gays and bis. That's precisely what you're saying. That's a blatant (except to you, who are too prejudice to see it) sexual prejudice. And your innate sexual prejudice is why you won't just accept the observation that gays, lesbians, and bis aren't given the same access and presentation here as heteros are. That's all it was--an observation of the reality here.

I wasn't going to comment on this, but this popped right out as a primary inability of some here to understand the issue.
 
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Right or wrong nothing here is going to change.

People are just getting worked up for nothing.

Its a free site, if we were paying it would be more of an issue, but we're not.

So like You and TX and others say when a newb complains, you don't like it no one is making you stay.
 
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SecondCircle said:
I don't think I would have been baffled (having a "gay" everything and "straight" everything) because of the number of cats that would create. It would just be strange to me as a reader to look and see a Gay Romance cat, a Les Romance cat, a Trans Romance cat, and a straight romance cat, and so on for each category. I'd think we why stop there? Why not Asian Romance cat, a Afram Romance cat etc. etc. I wouldn't want that kind of over segregation. That was why I was against all those categories. It'd be cool if readers wouldn't mind Gay and Straight stories dropped in every cat out there.

Just uh, clearing that up, not disagreeing or intending any offense.
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But you can do that, too. Over at EroticStories.com, that's exactly what they do. There are gay, lesbian, straight, and bi sections, I guess you'd say, and then under each section is a list of categories, ranging from first time to anal to whatever else they have. You choose which section you want, then which category or subsection. I'm not saying it's the best way, but it's another way and it's as valid as Lit's or SOL's.

And you might not like that much subdivision, but someone else might. I've seen more than a few people here on Lit comment that they aren't crazy over an Interracial category. That is, why can't it just be romance, or BDSM, or whatever. But there are readers who would want to seek out, or avoid, just that element, and this particular site allows them to.

Once more, I'd say it's getting back to what you're used to in terms of whether you think it's enough, too much, or not enough separating.

Eventually, yes, I think if you are going to have sections or categories of any kind, then you will have to decide how many and where to draw those lines. If you go to tags/keywords only then you still run into the issue of how many you will have, and which ones. So there's no perfect system. But there might be a better one.
 
sr71plt said:
But you ARE giving offense. You're saying you can see heteros getting separate topic categories but not gays and bis. That's precisely what you're saying. That's a blatant (except to you, who are too prejudice to see it) sexual prejudice. And your innate sexual prejudice is why you won't just accept the observation that gays, lesbians, and bis aren't given the same access and presentation here as heteros are. That's all it was--an observation of the reality here.

I wasn't going to comment on this, but this popped right out as a primary inability of some here to understand the issue.
Click to expand...

<sigh>

Even though I said I agree with what everyone is saying. My point was that in my opinion I wouldn't want to open a page that listed 80 categories that had the prefix "Gay" this or "Straight" that, because I think that's segregation. That I would like to see ALL categories host both same sex and straight. But that READERS wouldn't jive with it.

No. Apparently even if I agree with you but offer some opinions, I have an inability to understand the issue.

I just don't think it's as cut and dry as it seems.
 
Right or wrong nothing here is going to change.

And that's been a point that I've made myself here several times. As this came up here, my point was just an observation of the reality here.

People are just getting worked up for nothing.

I'm not worked up about it--beyond folks being stubbornly blind about it. The point is blatantly obvious, which makes the denial irritating. But, no, it's not a "nothing" issue either. Especially since you bring rating comparisons to the forum--using the very inequality of the system as ammunition in your attempts to belittle irrelevantly.

Its a free site, if we were paying it would be more of an issue, but we're not.


Right. I've never said otherwise.

So like You and TX and others say when a newb complains, you don't like it no one is making you stay.

Which is irrelevant, since I, more than once on this thread, have stated it isn't a deal breaker with me. It just is a reality that only innate prejudice (or the shell game "someone" is playing) can have the chutzpah (or ignorance or arrogance) to deny.
 
sr71plt said:
Right or wrong nothing here is going to change.

And that's been a point that I've made myself here several times. As this came up here, my point was just an observation of the reality here.

People are just getting worked up for nothing.

I'm not worked up about it--beyond folks being stubbornly blind about it. The point is blatantly obvious, which makes the denial irritating. But, no, it's not a "nothing" issue either. Especially since you bring rating comparisons to the forum--using the very inequality of the system as ammunition in your attempts to belittle irrelevantly.

Its a free site, if we were paying it would be more of an issue, but we're not.


Right. I've never said otherwise.

So like You and TX and others say when a newb complains, you don't like it no one is making you stay.

Which is irrelevant, since I, more than once on this thread, have stated it isn't a deal breaker with me. It just is a reality that only innate prejudice (or the shell game "someone" is playing) can have the chutzpah (or ignorance or arrogance) to deny.
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A bisexual with an innate prejudices against same sex, who also has gay and lesbian friends. I'm a shitty human being I guess.
 
Guess it's either that or being stubbornly ignorant about the structure of the Web site--and the observation that was being made about it.

But then I've heard the "some of my best friends are . . ." excuse before.
 
sr71plt said:
Right or wrong nothing here is going to change.

And that's been a point that I've made myself here several times. As this came up here, my point was just an observation of the reality here.

People are just getting worked up for nothing.

I'm not worked up about it--beyond folks being stubbornly blind about it. The point is blatantly obvious, which makes the denial irritating. But, no, it's not a "nothing" issue either. Especially since you bring rating comparisons to the forum--using the very inequality of the system as ammunition in your attempts to belittle irrelevantly.

Its a free site, if we were paying it would be more of an issue, but we're not.


Right. I've never said otherwise.

So like You and TX and others say when a newb complains, you don't like it no one is making you stay.

Which is irrelevant, since I, more than once on this thread, have stated it isn't a deal breaker with me. It just is a reality that only innate prejudice (or the shell game "someone" is playing) can have the chutzpah (or ignorance or arrogance) to deny.
Click to expand...

So those who disagree with you that the site is prejudiced, must be prejudiced?

Get off your cross Pilot, no one here is prejudiced, this is just more of your persecution complex.

And for someone not getting worked up you won;t let this go and are slinging accusations of homophobia and prejudice.

All kidding aside you're spinning wheels on this, its never going to go anywhere.

You know that, suggestions fall on deaf ears and no point you or anyone else can make will change that.
 
sr71plt said:
Guess it's either that or being stubbornly ignorant about the structure of the Web site--and the observation that was being made about it.

But then I've heard the "some of my best friends are . . ." excuse before.
Click to expand...

Oh? Questioning someone's personal life now are we? I would think of all people, you would be the last person to condone that. I mean it can't feel nice when someone slanders you that way can it?

Why does it have to go like this? When we have differences if opinions, why does it seem like everyone takes what someone says, makes the worst of it, and then casts hateful words toward each other? Why does it seem like we're friggin Stark and Lannistering the shit out of each other?

Patience and open mindedness goes a long way.

So thanks Bramble and PennLady for being patient and offering me thoughtful opposing views that have helped me understand how things work elsewhere and how they could be.
 
lovecraft68 said:
Its pushing two years TX.
Click to expand...

Do you have any idea what it has taken to get even the back end of this pasted together site mapped, much less replaced so something new and better can be built on top and around it? Just from looking around I can see the band aides and patches. Not to mention the mix and mismatch of parts and pieces.

It takes time. Lots of time or a large staff of programmers. You do the math.
 
Laurel said:
The size of our archive (I think 100,000+ stories now) and readership make radical changes difficult.
Click to expand...

And also dangerous.

Literotica is like the Microsoft of erotica. Some users have known this place for a decade or more. They are familiar with the layout, the interface and all the various idiosyncrasies. If you change too much, too fast or too radically there will be a negative backlash of legacy users feeling alienated.

Any major update should be done gradually and with a velvet glove... just like an erotic massage...
 
StrangeLife said:
And also dangerous.

Literotica is like the Microsoft of erotica. Some users have known this place for a decade or more. They are familiar with the layout, the interface and all the various idiosyncrasies. If you change too much, too fast or too radically there will be a negative backlash of legacy users feeling alienated.

Any major update should be done gradually and with a velvet glove... just like an erotic massage...
Click to expand...

I don't think that I have ever had an erotic massage with a velvet glove; but, as for the rest of your point, I agree one hundred percent. Updating/restructuring a site with a large legacy base is a MAJOR undertaking.
 
lovecraft68 said:
One thing I'll add to all here is that I have to say that I think this was an unduly cruel tease

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=814085

This was never going to happen.
Click to expand...

I agree. That thread was extremely unfair.

Stella wrote me - privately, in PM - asking about the possibility of a Bisexual category. I responded that we had considered the idea, but had not moved forward because of reasons similar to what I've already expressed in this thread. I asked she her opinion on this.

The next thing I know, people are writing to me linking me to the thread and asking me, "When will the Bisexual category be put in place?"

I have never in the history of Lit promised there would be a category. Not in private, not in public.
 
For the record, my PM response:

From : Laurel
To : Stella_Omega
Date : 2012-05-30 21:54
Title : Re: Can we have a bisexual story category?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Stella,

Thanks for writing, and I hope you are well.

This is something we've thought about. The problem with a Bisexual category is that readers who want to read about bisexual women have absolutely no interest in reading about bisexual men, and vice versa.

The alternative is to create separate Bisexual Male and Bisexual Female categories. The problem with this is placement. If a story has a bisexual woman having sex with another woman, does it go in Bisexual Female or Lesbian? If she's having sex with a man only, does it go in Bisexual Female or EC (or another pertinent category)? If she's having sex with both, why place it in Bisexual Female instead of Group?]

Any input on this would be welcome. If you want to share this PM with the forum for discussion, that's cool. :rose:

Laurel
Click to expand...
 
Laurel said:
I agree. That thread was extremely unfair.

Stella wrote me - privately, in PM - asking about the possibility of a Bisexual category. I responded that we had considered the idea, but had not moved forward because of reasons similar to what I've already expressed in this thread. I asked she her opinion on this.

The next thing I know, people are writing to me linking me to the thread and asking me, "When will the Bisexual category be put in place?"

I have never in the history of Lit promised there would be a category. Not in private, not in public.
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining that. It definitely paints things in a different light.

Just a suggestion but maybe you should delete the thread and save some of the grief it causes.
 
I had assumed the number and naming of category were a function of submission popularity as well as reader preference. I.e. if there were masses and masses of GM or GF (I always prefer that to lesbian, not sure why) submissions, then they would be broken down into more categories (Gay Romance, Gay EC, etc). When there's only a small demand for a category (unless it's niche e.g. there's not many EH submissions but I would hate to come across an extreme EH in NH), why have it separate and somewhere not everyone would look?

I was on another site earlier which has categories, but has more teen readers so there's simply not one NH category, there's one for each type of NH...:rolleyes:
I'm guessing this was a result of the sheer volume being practical to split, plus some stories were in more than one category, so more like a tag system in that regard.
 
Tilt. If access of one type of story (like there being no bi category here) is restricted in comparison to access to other types of story, why would you expect there would be readers (like bi readers in this example) showing up here to read stories hard to find in proportion to readers of other types of stories who were being given better access?

If the access is here, the readers will show up. If access isn't given, or isn't given in the same proportion, this is a demonstrated bias toward that type of story (which is the site's right, of course--doesn't stop it from being a bias and being called that, though--which is all I did that started this particular debate).

Why do you think incest is so popular here? It's because this site provides highlighted access and most other sites don't. Readers come to where their material is being given highlighted access, not where it's absent or kicked into a corner.
 
So what? If you want a heterosexual incest story, you just go to a conveniently supplied category page (which, incidentally, gives all sorts of helpful lists highlighting authors and stories), you don't have to try to figure out any search mechanism. You're dense, but not really this dense. You want everyone to think that you don't understand the definition of inequality?

I don't really think you are that dumb--you're just playing this out. So, there's no real reason to ride this merry-go-round for another revolution.

(Funny on how fast you knuckled under to Laurel's posts on the bi poll here. She hasn't bothered to go over and put them out of their wheel's spinning misery and hopefulness, has she? It's just a cowardly shell game.)
 
redzinger said:
I had assumed the number and naming of category were a function of submission popularity as well as reader preference. I.e. if there were masses and masses of GM or GF (I always prefer that to lesbian, not sure why) submissions, then they would be broken down into more categories (Gay Romance, Gay EC, etc). When there's only a small demand for a category (unless it's niche e.g. there's not many EH submissions but I would hate to come across an extreme EH in NH), why have it separate and somewhere not everyone would look?
Click to expand...

GM and LS aren't that small. They each have about 11,000 stories, which makes them 9th and 10th largest out of 31 English-language categories on the site. If Letters/Transcripts is big enough to get a category of its own, with 1294 posts, surely something like Queer Romance ought to be large enough qualify.

(TBH, even aside from story counts, I've never really understood why L&T is a category of its own. I can see small categories like Mind Control or Toys aligning with reader fetishes and making it easier to find/avoid those themes, but... does anybody really sit down and say "I want to read something in epistolary form"?)
 
I agree on L&T

I will add that mind control is a waste of a category that should be in Non con reluctance.

Now on that note I wold love to see reluctance separated from Non con they are very different

One is Oh, do I have to? But still a choice, one is flat out rape.

I like reluctance, but never read them here because I got tired of sifting through nothing but rape stories.

Cases can be made for a lot of things like that, but to no avail.

There has been some good ideas and opinions here, but at this point the thread is turning into a attack on the site on a personal level calling it prejudiced and biased.

But I am sure Laurel is taking a "look at the source" attitude on that
 
Bramblethorn said:
(TBH, even aside from story counts, I've never really understood why L&T is a category of its own. I can see small categories like Mind Control or Toys aligning with reader fetishes and making it easier to find/avoid those themes, but... does anybody really sit down and say "I want to read something in epistolary form"?)
Click to expand...

Early on, some readers expressed annoyance at writers submitting stories formatted as chat transcripts or love letters/hot emails. Placing them in their own category - so that readers who enjoyed that format could find them and those who didn't could not-read them - made sense at the time because this was long before one could click on a tag.

Honestly, were I to start the site from scratch, I would probably have half the categories we have now. Starting from scratch with a library and membership this size just isn't an option.

I will say that the Category Hubs are growing in popularity as far as a navigational tool. We eventually plan to expand them and make them more community-oriented, so that readers can share and discuss stories within the category.
 
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