prejudice or simple seperation of the races?

woody54 said:

You need to consider the almost genetic link people have to their roots.
On a limited scale this is reflected in kids fucked up by adoption and having a void they cannot explain. On a wider cultural measure, perhaps Arthur Hailley's "Roots " gives a picture of what it means to later generations.

Everyone needs to know who they are and where they came from, your soul needs that.

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I don't think being in a loving home away from the poverty and violence of a reservation qualifies as being "fucked up by adoption" but that's another thread.

I know where my ancestors came from, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't help me in anyway. It's not like I could go back to Norway or Ireland and just fit in with the people there.

medjay said:

I would repeat what I always say about the cultural irrelevance of BET and how moronic white people are whenever they target that channel as the subject of their wrath but I don't want to be redundant.

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I have never seen anything wrong with "cultural" programming myself. The objections seem to come from thoise who see other cultures as less relevant than their own but there is always something to learn, even if it only how to boogey on BET.

There is only one reason to watch BET, and that's for the token white guy they throw in every now and again.

Kinda like when they take a black guy hunting on the outdoor channel.

marshalt said:

I don't think being in a loving home away from the poverty and violence of a reservation qualifies as being "fucked up by adoption" but that's another thread.

I know where my ancestors came from, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't help me in anyway. It's not like I could go back to Norway or Ireland and just fit in with the people there.

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The adoption comment was not judgemental based on your instance but to a genuine widespread social reality in the backgrounds of troubled people.

You do not experience a void because you know your roots and you can then choose to dismiss it as unimportant. Your jigsaw gives a full picture. Not knowing is a strange form of paranoia.

marshalt said:

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting letting the children choose the values that are important to them.

In the daily fishwrap up here, they have a columnist that is an American Indian. She went off on a rant one day about how kids from the reservation that are adopted by white people aren't being exposed to their "culture" because they weren't participating in pow wows and that stuff.

To me that feels wrong. Who cares what your ancestors did? And why should we force a culture or heritage on children?

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*nods. that same issue arises when children of color are adopted in caucasian families and vice versa. i don't have well-defined thoughts on that issue, other than the fact that i can see both sides of the argument.

marshalt said:

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting letting the children choose the values that are important to them.

In the daily fishwrap up here, they have a columnist that is an American Indian. She went off on a rant one day about how kids from the reservation that are adopted by white people aren't being exposed to their "culture" because they weren't participating in pow wows and that stuff.

To me that feels wrong. Who cares what your ancestors did? And why should we force a culture or heritage on children?

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But what is the problem with exposing the children to a culture or heritage different than that in which they are raised? It would seem to me that the diet of values is limited if you don't step outside of the family unit.

My mom exposed me and my sister to church when we were young, although she had walked away from it. She never forced us to go and she didn't force her beliefs about the church on us. I was in junior high when I stopped going to church services on a regular basis. As an adult I opted to go to a few, but have now firmly closed the door on religion. My mother is now a born-again Christian.

How would I know what works for me if I hadn't gone to church in the first place, if I didn't have exposure and see both sides of the coin so to speak?

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are saying.

marshalt said:

There is only one reason to watch BET, and that's for the token white guy they throw in every now and again.

Kinda like when they take a black guy hunting on the outdoor channel.

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It all sounds a little like the narrow minded conservatives who listen to Howard Stern, knowing that he will offend them so they can then complain about it.
Like. I mean, if you know the fire is hot, dont put your hand in it.
Complaining under those circumstances is thought policing and cultural pressuring which is part of the racist/cultural debate.

Denae said:

But what is the problem with exposing the children to a culture or heritage different than that in which they are raised? It would seem to me that the diet of values is limited if you don't step outside of the family unit.

.

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Australia had a White Australia policy for much of last century, where children were removed from "worthless" Aboringinees and adopted out into 'Nice" white families to break their culture.
Go read about how successful it was, it was a criminal cultural disaster because roots are as important as environmental issues.

Okay. To put things bluntly, black people are not simply white people with a deep tan, no matter how much some liberal thinkers wish that were so. There will be no melding of the races or any colorblind society in the future so you can forget about that utopic idea. Black people are different culturally and socially and we're proud of the things that make us unique. That's how it is. And sometimes we like to watch TV and see people on the screen who look like us. Oftentimes we like to socialize and be around our own kind. Get over it.

medjay said:

Okay. To put things bluntly, black people are not simply white people with a deep tan, no matter how much some liberal thinkers wish that were so. There will be no melding of the races or any colorblind society in the future so you can forget about that utopic idea. Black people are different culturally and socially and we're proud of the things that make us unique. That's how it is. And sometimes we like to watch TV and see people on the screen who look like us. Oftentimes we like to socialize and be around our own kind. Get over it.

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Your bluntness is applauded and real.

There is no point in shuffling around the issues that make us all different.

The world could be a more boring vanilla place.

woody54 said:

Australia had a White Australia policy for much of last century, where children were removed from "worthless" Aboringinees and adopted out into 'Nice" white families to break their culture.
Go read about how successful it was, it was a criminal cultural disaster because roots are as important as environmental issues.

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I'm definitely NOT saying taking children from their families and abort their roots at all.

What I was responding to, not very well, was if a family adopts a child from a different race/culture, etc., why would it be a bad thing to let them go to a pow wow (using the American Indian example from earlier)?

woody54 said:

Australia had a White Australia policy for much of last century, where children were removed from "worthless" Aboringinees and adopted out into 'Nice" white families to break their culture.
Go read about how successful it was, it was a criminal cultural disaster because roots are as important as environmental issues.

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That's forced assimilliation though, something I'm very much against. People need to learn to identify with what THEY are, not what their ancestors were.

One of the subjects hydrex haphazardly brings up in this thread was the center of my collegiate existence. I spent my time there, as a student of mixed race, fighting against the outdated campus clubs specifically catering to certain races (i.e. the Afro-Am Society). I got in front of a few microphones, and wrote a few articles. As a result, the Afro-Am at my college at one point declared a crisis and flew in a few alumni overnight to tackle the issue. Drama queens.

But I did make a mess. Here's why:

First off, there's no question such societies had their time and purpose. As you all know, when U.S. schools of higher learning started being proactive about getting black students on campus in the 60s-70s, there was no support matrix, no protection, no indoctrination, nothing to assist them from coexisting with their white counterparts...and vice versa. These societies were something minorities could depend on to help them through what otherwise promised to be a tumultuous four years.

But, because the college was able to create and maintain such groups, there was less they had to do to truly integrate their campuses in return; they even dodged a few Civil Right legal bullets in the process. Not only did Afro-Am socieites become crutches by which institutions could claim they had an integrated campus (when, in reality, everyone was muttering "nigger" under their breath), but these societies also acted as scapegoats when incidents arose amongst students. In other words, if a racially-motivated attack happened between two students, the "experts" at the Afro-Am were who the campus heads would turn to, rather than turning the magnifying glass on themselves for the environment they helped to create. Black groups, then, got both the blame and the burden of repairing these situations. Afro-Ams and other such campus societies have always been a mixed blessing at best. They often get used for uncouth purposes by the majority.

My position was that we were long overdue in taking the next step in integrating a student body, where societies like the Afro-Am were no longer necessary because the administration as a whole would demonstrate and help to maintain a campus atmosphere in which zero tolerance for racism and fostering of intellect reigned supreme, rather than coddling the student body (and the administration itself) into being comfortable by isolating the issue. At my school, for instance, the Afro-Am was no longer serving any purpose - other than the aforementioned one - but to be a social club for upper-middle class and wealthy Black students not wanting to make an effort at getting to know the "other side", and a haven for the Farrakhan types who had no business being in an institution of higher learning in the first place, IMHO. For instance, the president of the Afro-Am was a black woman who routinely sought out white girls and threatened them so that they wouldn't date the few black men on campus (worth noting that everyone in the Afro Am unanimously voted her in). Of course, this arrangement was okay with an administration looking to take tuition fees from minorities with ease, and a predominantly white student body who were happy with having all these strange-looking people keeping to themselves. It didn't sit well with me. No one got this at my college, except for a handful of friends and professors. Today, it's a different story; they've started disbanding these groups there. They're now alliances, where before the charters specified, in plain language, that these groups were only for minorities (and yes, they got away with this). My hope, and the hope of most people, is that in the future the benefits of those alliances will be present, but not coordinated through clubs. They will occur spontaneously.

People will gravitate towards members of their own race, and many will go on after school to live in their own "safe" communities of like-minded, like-skinned people. Whatever. But college is an artificial environment in many respects, and it's that way by design. It's a unique opportunity to, if not discourage such tendencies, to at least not cater to them while one is there supposedly learning something about other people around them.

Learning. What a novel idea for education.

medjay said:

Okay. To put things bluntly, black people are not simply white people with a deep tan, no matter how much some liberal thinkers wish that were so. There will be no melding of the races or any colorblind society in the future so you can forget about that utopic idea. Black people are different culturally and socially and we're proud of the things that make us unique. That's how it is. And sometimes we like to watch TV and see people on the screen who look like us. Oftentimes we like to socialize and be around our own kind. Get over it.

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Way to cut to the chase and get down to basics.

marshalt said:

That's forced assimilliation though, something I'm very much against. People need to learn to identify with what THEY are, not what their ancestors were.

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You just dont get it yet.

Roots are an important part of your makeup.

You cannot have a balanced human being without that knowledge.

Just consider the huge industry these days in people searching out their birth parents.

If what you think were true, why would they bother? What need forced them to do this? It is for their soul. They need to know.

marshalt said:

A person chooses their culture. Just because it's important to you doesn't mean it has to mean something to your kids. Culture is all about experiences that bind people together, not about blood or skin color.

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I'm sorry, I have to disagree.

Native American culture is so much more than powwows and skin color. The whole structure of society is much different, down to social customs. I didn't "choose" my culture, I was born into it. And, yes, it means something to my children, as well.

If we were to stop raising our voices against the things we see, and the things that have been done, then we will become as invisible as some would wish. Some school children already think that natives are extinct, and the history books and teachers do very little to disabuse them of that notion.

Yes, shared experiences as a culture bind people together.

woody54 said:

You just dont get it yet.

Roots are an important part of your makeup.

You cannot have a balanced human being without that knowledge.

Just consider the huge industry these days in people searching out their birth parents.

If what you think were true, why would they bother? What need forced them to do this? It is for their soul. They need to know.

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Very well said.

It may not be important to some, but extremely important to others, as it is to me.

woody54 said:

Roots are an important part of your makeup.

You cannot have a balanced human being without that knowledge.

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I don't need that knowledge to forumlate my being; please do not slight me by suggesting that I'm not balanced. That's taught thinking, which carries with it great power. It's an easy sell since we spend all of our lives working to forumlate our own identity. I'd argue it's done not only to create division, but to create money.

woody54 said:

Just consider the huge industry these days in people searching out their birth parents.

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Exhibit A.

woody54 said:

What need forced them to do this? It is for their soul.

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"Soul" is theoretical.

To quote Nat King Cole: Your story's so pretty...but it sounds like a lie.

hydrex said:

One day, if humans live that long, we will all be one color.

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depends on what you believe. But I think we'd all be very boring if it were to be that way. I personally like being who I am and the many colors of life that are my make up. And I like being part of the human race. I'm not just a color.
It's the color to me that is insignificant.. but the person who makes up soul is another story.

cloudy said:

I'm sorry, I have to disagree.

Native American culture is so much more than powwows and skin color. The whole structure of society is much different, down to social customs. I didn't "choose" my culture, I was born into it. And, yes, it means something to my children, as well.

If we were to stop raising our voices against the things we see, and the things that have been done, then we will become as invisible as some would wish. Some school children already think that natives are extinct, and the history books and teachers do very little to disabuse them of that notion.

Yes, shared experiences as a culture bind people together.

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Your experience is duplicated in New Zealand which was a British Colony since the late 1700's. In typical fashion, the natives were disenfranchised, in this case with a token treaty, which has returned in recent history to bite the whiteman firmly on the bum.

The Maori were relegated to a secondary status and their lands exploited for colonists. Over the centuries, much "assimiliation" was achieved but culture was always the major stumbling block preventing the creation of white maoris.

Much like native Americans , Maori have a strong spiritual tie to their land and putting them in a suburban house with a job will never make them "like us".

These cultural differences are widely recognised now in law and much has and is being done to redress the balance of cultural values.

There is room for each culture, it only takes the acceptance and tolerance of others to allow you to live yours.

RoryN said:

I don't need that knowledge to forumlate my being; please do not slight me by suggesting that I'm not balanced. That's taught thinking, which carries with it great power. It's an easy sell since we spend all of our lives working to forumlate our own identity. I'd argue it's done not only to create division, but to create money.



Exhibit A.



"Soul" is theoretical.

To quote Nat King Cole: Your story's so pretty...but it sounds like a lie.

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You are a lucky person and perhaps a little smug, to know yourself. but bear some thought for the many who are not so lucky and who do suffer from the "need to know".

Denae said:

Way to cut to the chase and get down to basics.

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I should also add that the existence of things like BET and black college clubs does not mean that black people have some sort of racist agenda for excluding whites. The thing many white people seem unable to grasp is the idea that maybe, just maybe, black people truely and honestly love being black and like to celebrate that with each other as often as possible. I don't see the same type of love among white people (which is a shame actually) so perhaps many just can't relate to that particular social instinct. They view blacks loving one another and enjoying each other's company as a slight against them when, for the most part, black people aren't even thinking about white folks when they're not around.

woody54 said:

There is room for each culture, it only takes the acceptance and tolerance of others to allow you to live yours.

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Exactly.

I have no problems with others celebrating their culture, why do so many have a problem with mine?

medjay said:

I don't see the same type of love among white people (which is a shame actually) so perhaps many just can't relate to that particular social instinct.

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You see the backhanded response to interlopers in their club which they see as the whole society of white people. They dont need special clubs, the society is it..... thats why coloured people stand out, cruel but true.

woody54 said:

You are a lucky person and perhaps a little smug, to know yourself.

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My learning curve is neverending.

But it's quite easy for someone to largely formulate their identity through ancestory and the culture of their relatives, or even just the influence of their parents. [Devil'sAdvocate] Makes it a lot easier to play the "my daddy beat me" card in court. [/Devil'sAdvocate]

I'm an "individualist". Even if these factors made up 100% of who I was, I'd choose to ignore their influence and create myself through my own perception. If you want to live through instinct and predisposition, that's fine. It certainly seems to be the preferred way to go.

woody54 said:

but bear some thought for the many who are not so lucky and who do suffer from the "need to know".

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*sigh* I know.

medjay said:

The thing many white people seem unable to grasp is the idea that maybe, just maybe, black people truely and honestly love being black and like to celebrate that with each other as often as possible.

I don't see the same type of love among white people (which is a shame actually) so perhaps many just can't relate to that particular social instinct.

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You don't?