My take on the Saudi Arabia issue.

[bellisarius]

Not to defend the Saudi's but all the leaks on this case are coming from the pro-Iranian Turks who have an interest in breaking up alliance against Iran.

Well, there's a problem there. The Iranians are only allies of convenience in that they too are hell bent on wiping out the Kurds. The Turks are Sunni, the Iranians are Shia'. When they've finished exterminating the Kurds they're going to turn on each other. Isn't Mid-East politics fascinating?

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Everyone's all a flutter ... BLAH

tl/dr

A member of the press was killed because he believed in the American ideal of free speech. He believed in it so much it cost him his life.

All real Americans are outraged. We hate Tyrants.

 

[Oblimo]

The Saudi's have an internal problem with the Wahab's. Saudi Arabia has always been ruled by a partnership. The Saudi royal family dealing with the secular while the Wahab's kept the masses under control with the divine. With the Saudi's trying to modernize a conflict between themselves and the Wahab's began to erupt raising the specter of a civil war within the kingdom. And that would be bad for everyone, not just the US.

The House of Saud is Wahabist, and the world has had a severe Wahabism problem for decades.

 

[bellisarius]

The House of Saud has heretofore been followers of Wahhabism. But they are NOT of the House of Wahhab. Two different tribes whose goals are starting to diverge.

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab

The old alliance is breaking down.

 

[Oblimo]

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab

I know who Wahhab was, give me a break. I was trying to indicate the modern Wahhabist political/cultural/fanatical movement.

The old alliance is breaking down.

I sure hope that’s true, although the damage to Dar al-Islam has already been done.

 

[beew]

Well, there's a problem there. The Iranians are only allies of convenience in that they too are hell bent on wiping out the Kurds. The Turks are Sunni, the Iranians are Shia'. When they've finished exterminating the Kurds they're going to turn on each other. Isn't Mid-East politics fascinating?

That’s the other issue.

In the end Islam was born in Saudi Arabia, while many Iranian laypeople don’t have that sense of communion with the rest of the Arabic world. Many are resentful of “the Arab invasion” which forcibly converted them to Islam.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia are sunny. Iran is shia.

Turkey poses a risk of regional destabilization in the Balkans and in the end, to Christian Europe via Erdogan’s dream of resurrecting the Ottoman dream. Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia-Herzegovina are gradually accepting his protectorate amd rhetoric.

 

[Que]

I'm pretty sure the mid-east is as "sunny" as Arizona. . . .

 

[bellisarius]

I know who Wahhab was, give me a break. I was trying to indicate the modern Wahhabist political/cultural/fanatical movement.



I sure hope that’s true, although the damage to Dar al-Islam has already been done.

I think Dar al-islam was broken the day Mohammad went room temperature. The Sunni's and the Shia' have been at each others throats ever since.

Re. the "modern" movement. My take is that it's just a violent reaction to a modern world that is intruding on their 7th century notion of Utopia. The curse of sitting on a sea of oil.

Looking at Saudi Arabia as a business you have the Saud's pumping the oil and selling it to the rest of the world then donating large sums to the Wahhab's who then used the money to preach the murder of the Saud's customers. The Saud's were bound to wise up at some point, the Wahhab's are just bad for business.

 

[Oblimo]

I think Dar al-islam was broken the day Mohammad went room temperature. The Sunni's and the Shia' have been at each others throats ever since.

I disagree — not about the Sunni/Shia conflict, or about that fact that vicious tribalism has haunted Islam since day one (and unequivocally triumphed in the 20th century, thanks to Saudi-funded Wahhabist evangelism.) But 12th Century Dar al-Islam was the light of the fucking world.

Sure as heck didn’t last, though. The King of Jordan said in a 2016 60 Minutes interview that it’s a historical cycle endemic to the region, that every 500 years or so some motherfuckers go apeshit militant and try to kill everybody.

Looking at Saudi Arabia as a business you have the Saud's pumping the oil and selling it to the rest of the world then donating large sums to the Wahhab's who then used the money to preach the murder of the Saud's customers. The Saud's were bound to wise up at some point, the Wahhab's are just bad for business.

That’s a new take on the situation for me. I have to ponder it. I certainly hope the Saud have at long last developed a capitalist’s pragmatism.

 

[myrionomos]

You either didn't read, or didn't understand, what was written. The Saudi's as a nation DIDN'T kill 2000 Americans. A group of Wahabi extremists under the tutelage of bin Laden, a follower of the Muslim Brotherhood, killed 2000 Americans.

I read and understood quite well thanks. I know that the Saudis as a nation did not kill 3000 Americans; but the Sauds ( the family ) which I referred to, gave safe haven and protection of these extremists . So they should bear the consequences. They mete out violence on a daily basis and totally dominate their own people, they would therefore understand when they are on the receiving end.

Bin Laden and his people were encouraged and protected by the Saud royal family therefore the US non response was pathetic weakness and understood by the Sauds as such

Killing a few Saud princlings would have had no moral justification, but would have been far more effective Foreign policy than attacking Iraq.

 

[beew]

'The religion of peace' lol.
Even similar factions are trying to kill each other.

 

[Saint_Anne]

Pakis

 

[bellisarius]

I disagree — not about the Sunni/Shia conflict, or about that fact that vicious tribalism has haunted Islam since day one (and unequivocally triumphed in the 20th century, thanks to Saudi-funded Wahhabist evangelism.) But 12th Century Dar al-Islam was the light of the fucking world.

Sure as heck didn’t last, though. The King of Jordan said in a 2016 60 Minutes interview that it’s a historical cycle endemic to the region, that every 500 years or so some motherfuckers go apeshit militant and try to kill everybody.



That’s a new take on the situation for me. I have to ponder it. I certainly hope the Saud have at long last developed a capitalist’s pragmatism.

That period of Dar al-islam that you refer to was a period dominated by the school of the Mu'tazilah, a school now ruled as apostate in the Muslim world. That school was driven by reason and considered the Qur'an to be a created object. They are the ones that organized debates with the Christians and Jews and advanced the arts and sciences. The competing school of theological thought was that of the Ash'aris that held that the Qur'an was inseparable from Allah and that every word was the literal word of Allah. Another way of putting it was a conflict between rationalists and metaphysicians. By the 12th century the school of Ash'aris had become preeminent and virtually all evolution of the religion of Islam ceased to be.

It was not the crusades or any other external entity that brought about the end of Islam's "golden age" but the theological philosophy that they chose to embrace. That decision firmly anchored the religion in the 7th century and they haven't moved out of it since.

The new crown prince seems to be gravitating towards the school of the Mu'tazilah. If so this is necessarily going to bring about profound change in the underlying Islamic philosophy. And the struggle for preeminence is going to be long and bloody. Think of the 30 Years War that took place based on the struggle between the Roman Catholics and the Reformists. If that is indeed the prince's goal I wish him all the success in the world because if he is successful both Islam and the world in general will emerge from the conflict all the better.

 

[SpeareChucker]

The Saud's got away with 20 of their countrymen killing 3000 Americans 20 years ago. The absence of retaliation has made them disrespectful to the USA - They think that they can get away with anything.

The proper response would be to identify a small number of MBS' close Royal relatives and kill them. Done efficiently and discretely it would inform the Sauds that when it comes to the exercise of real power they are not top league. It would also inform them that the USA can dispose of whoever they wish - including the currently favoured princeling. Brutality appropriately applied tends to encourage caution.

You may remember some 30 years ago Reagan ordered a missile to be fired through Gadaffis bedroom window. He was never much trouble to the USA after that lesson.

What happened to to they didn't represent Islam?
But they represent Saudi Arabia?

 

[bellisarius]

What happened to to they didn't represent Islam?
But they represent Saudi Arabia?

*chuckle*

 

[SpeareChucker]

he lived in america and worked at an american newspaper. patriotic americans are upset, shame you're not with us on this.

The WaPo hired an Islamic apologist for the Muslim Brotherhood knowing that the Muslim Brotherhood is rooted in terrorism and propaganda (much of it which he penned) and now the demand is that we must be outraged because he is nominally, "a journalist?"


This was nothing more than the made guys knocking off another unmade guy from a rival crew. Their lack of subtlety was a message sent.

 

[BBX50]

The WaPo hired an Islamic apologist for the Muslim Brotherhood knowing that the Muslim Brotherhood is rooted in terrorism and propaganda (much of it which he penned) and now the demand is that we must be outraged because he is nominally, "a journalist?"


This was nothing more than the made guys knocking off another unmade guy from a rival crew. Their lack of subtlety was a message sent.

indeed


fuck the fat guy

who cares

 

[HisArpy]

If he was a Green Card Holder he was eligible to be in the US Military. There are approx. 6000 permenent residents in the US military now.

So perm residents can kill and be killed in the name of the US but they shouldnt be protected like anyone else. Right.

The "he's not a Citizen" is nothing but the Trump virus spreading its sickness and you have it.

You fell into the same pit that pilot did - that because he was "X" he was also "Y".

The issue isn't whether he should or shouldn't be "protected", as you put it. It's that you CANNOT USE FALSE FACTS TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION.

He was not a US Citizen. Saying he is because he's "almost" a US citizen, or that permanent residents can serve in the military is meaningless. He was NOT a US citizen.

Saying he was a US citizen in order to bolster your argument means that at least part of your argument is based on a lie. The rest of the argument MAY be true (he was killed etc. etc. etc.) but the part about him being a US citizen is not true. Your vitriol led you to a point where you could not separate truth from fiction (no surprise there) and you used that point of no return to attack someone as if they were part of the assassination team. And then you blamed Trump for all of it.

 

[Rightguide]

The WaPo hired an Islamic apologist for the Muslim Brotherhood knowing that the Muslim Brotherhood is rooted in terrorism and propaganda (much of it which he penned) and now the demand is that we must be outraged because he is nominally, "a journalist?"


This was nothing more than the made guys knocking off another unmade guy from a rival crew. Their lack of subtlety was a message sent.

Schism and BoreNextDoor are about as naive as they come on this issue. I wonder how many people believed the news story yesterday that Pompeo listened to a taped recording of khashoggi's death. The fact is he heard no such tape or read no such transcript of said murder and said so this morning.

 

[Rightguide]

You fell into the same pit that pilot did - that because he was "X" he was also "Y".

The issue isn't whether he should or shouldn't be "protected", as you put it. It's that you CANNOT USE FALSE FACTS TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION.

He was not a US Citizen. Saying he is because he's "almost" a US citizen, or that permanent residents can serve in the military is meaningless. He was NOT a US citizen.

Saying he was a US citizen in order to bolster your argument means that at least part of your argument is based on a lie. The rest of the argument MAY be true (he was killed etc. etc. etc.) but the part about him being a US citizen is not true. Your vitriol led you to a point where you could not separate truth from fiction (no surprise there) and you used that point of no return to attack someone as if they were part of the assassination team. And then you blamed Trump for all of it.

It's a pitiful sight watching the triggered left try and convert their inane mental pathologies into political issues and discourse.

 

[HisArpy]

It's a pitiful sight watching the triggered left try and convert their inane mental pathologies into political issues and discourse.

From what I see is that their thinking process goes something like this:

All right everyone, let's gather 'round count the magic beans... One magic bean... That mother fucker Trump stole the magic beans! And ALL THE REPUBLICANS HELPED HIM DO IT!!

THIS MEANS WAR!!!

BURN AND DESTROY EVERYTHING!!!!!

Two magic beans... Those fucking Republicans stole...


.

 

[Rightguide]

From what I see is that their thinking process goes something like this:

All right everyone, let's gather 'round count the magic beans... One magic bean... That mother fucker Trump stole the magic beans! And ALL THE REPUBLICANS HELPED HIM DO IT!!

THIS MEANS WAR!!!

BURN AND DESTROY EVERYTHING!!!!!

Two magic beans... Those fucking Republicans stole...


.

^^^
Quite an accurate illustration of the kind of critical thinking one observes in the American left.

 

[Dazzle1]

Abdul Razi is a far more important issues than a Moslem Brotherhood member

 

[doowdniw]

tl/dr
All real Americans are outraged. We hate Tyrants.

If only they had merely body slammed him, Trump would probably be giving them credit in his rallies.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

I am curious about the real story on this crap.

they went to some trouble to get people there to do all that stuff and if one of the princes were there...

What was the reason? Did he know something? Do something? See something.

Why not ghost him? Never to be found again. In that country hardly a new thing.

So WTF is THAT all about.

According to the independent Stockholm Center, there are currently 245 journalists detained in Turkey by the government of Recep Erdogan. There are 15,000 others there, including teachers, police, firemen and post-men currently under detention without internationally-recognized legal trials or charges.

Anyone? Anyone? ...crickets.

Somebody wanted 'proof' or maybe 'evidence' that Jimmy Khashoggi is a spokesperson and high-level strategist for the Muslim Brotherhood - for a start, there are extensive videos of him extolling both Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood and outright declaring that 9/11 was categorically conducted by Al Qaeda and no others especially not any Jews, and this he did well before anyone in the US Administration's formal Inquiry confirmed these things. Further, he was the only person to personally interview Osama bin Laden at his secret camp when bin Laden was the head of Al Qaeda and he was engaged as the go-between and negotiator for Saudi Arabia and other parties including the UK government, and Al Qaeda and the militia arms of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Secretary General OF the Muslim Brotherhood, Mohammad al-Massari, recently gave an interview to Al Jazeera in which he claims Jamal Khashoggi as his personal friend and colleague.

There are no logical reasons to jump to any particular conclusions right now about what may, or may not have transpired regarding the disappearance of Jimmy Khashoggi, and there are too many players involved in the geo-strategic/geo-political aspects of the matter to assume that one story or another carries any more weight than the story about this guy 'Jesus of Nazareth' who was also said to have been gruesomely and brutally murdered by Romans and Arabs a couple of thousand years ago - unless I can see where he was crucified, and plunge my own fingers into the bloody wounds, and in the case of this particular Khashoggi, feel around the sliced off part of his neck and head and look at his lifeless head and his dismembered body parts, I shall continue to assume that a fat guy with emphysema and a heart condition could easily choke and die of his own accord from a heart attack at any moment, regardless of if he happened to have been being strangled also, at the specific crucial time...

...Bearing in mind that traditionally, 'dissidents' like Jesus Christ, and Spartacus, have had their names taken in vain for political purposes - often, and by most unscrupulous and unsavory creatures too, of which Recep Erdogan is certainly one outstanding example.