“I can write authentic female characters” he said. Hilarity ensues.

[Charmolypi]

I found this gem online and had to share. The debate about who can and can’t write what doesn’t need more fire. But it deserves to be made fun of now and then.

A nice set of curves if I do say so myself': a Twitter lesson in how not to write women

One integral thing about being female is that we don’t really think about our breasts very much at all. If we ever do, we never think about how we’ve “propped them up front and centre”. But it seems some male authors don’t realise this, as was piercingly highlighted on Twitter by young adult author Gwen Katz at the weekend, after a writer insisted he was “living proof that it’s possible for a male author to write an authentic female protagonist”.

Well. Obviously, it is possible. But not in this case. Here are just a few lines from the unnamed writer’s novel: “I sauntered over, certain he noticed me. I’m hard to miss, I’d like to think – a little tall (but not too tall), a nice set of curves if I do say so myself, pants so impossibly tight that if I had had a credit card in my back pocket you could read the expiration date. The rest of my outfit wasn’t that remarkable, just a few old things I had lying around. You know how it is.”


Gwen C. Katz
(@gwenckatz)
Do you want another quote? You want another quote. pic****itter.com/JYfYZlYj6u

March 30, 2018
Leaving aside the fact that allowing someone to read the expiration date on a credit card through your trousers could be financially inadvisable, Katz shares several descriptions of the character’s sexiness before we get to: “And, of course, my boobs. I had them propped up all front and center, in a perfectly ladylike way. Well, kind of. Okay, not really that ladylike.”

This all prompted a Twitter challenge: “describe yourself the way a male author would”. And the results are excellent. Jennifer Weiner gives us: “Her breasts entered the room before her far less interesting face, decidedly maternal hips and rounded thighs. He found her voice unpleasantly audible. As his gaze dropped from her mouth (still talking!) to her cleavage, he wondered why feminists were so angry all the time.”

Talia Lavin comes up with: “I had big honking teeters, just enormous bosoms, and I thought about them constantly as I walked down the street, using my legs (thick, with big shapely calves), but never not thinking about my enormo honkers.” And Maria Dahvana Headley goes for: “Her body was an hourglass meant for taking his time, but her mohawk concerned him. She had a lesbian look, & too many tattoos, in languages he couldn’t pronounce. Still, she’d written a stack of books. It was time for him to weigh in with his high school knowledge of Beowulf.”

The point of all this isn’t just to make fun of the “living proof” writer highlighted by Katz; no, he’s only the latest author to scale the whole mountain of male writers who get carried away when describing women, particularly their breasts. It’s not the first time a man has been called out for this sort of thing, and to be fair to Katz’s unnamed man, he’s hardly the worst offender.

There was George RR Martin’s description of Daenerys (“Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest”) to Jack Kerouac (“Her breasts stuck out straight and true; her little flanks looked delicious”), and Paul Auster, who includes some “ample, poignant breasts”. Joshua Cohen’s Book of Numbers featured a woman who was described thusly: “Her mouth was intensely ovoid, an almond mouth, of citrus crescents. And under that sling, her breasts were like young fawns, sheep frolicking in hyssop.”

And I’m not even going to quote the passage Lavin chooses from Updike, because frankly it makes me shrivel up a little inside, but it did remind me of this particular gem from Updike’s The Witches of Eastwick: “She had to sit on the toilet some minutes waiting for the pee to come. Men, they were able to conjure it up immediately, that was one of their powers, that thunderous splashing as they stood lordly above the bowl. Everything about them was more direct, their insides weren’t the maze women’s were, for the pee to find its way through.”

Writers, take note: breasts should never frolic and women are not amazed by male urination. Men should not be scared to write women – they just need to do it well. Like Philip Pullman. Or John Green. Or Roald Dahl. Or Stieg Larsson. Or Ian McEwan. As a minimum, make sure that no stray breasts move of their own accord.

 

[Jada59]

I can't draw men. They always look like women. So I draw beards on them. Then I have bearded ladies.

 

[JasonClearwater]

I found this gem online and had to share. The debate about who can and can’t write what doesn’t need more fire. But it deserves to be made fun of now and then.

A friend of mine who's edited some of my non-erotic writing, pointed me to this article one day: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/if-women-wrote-men-the-way-men-write-women, and after that, I just didn't want to write women at all.

When I did finally attempt it again, I was traumatised thinking how badly I'd fuck it up. (see here for shameless self promotion) It rated very, very badly.The number of 'views' vs the number of votes is staggeringly tiny. But I TRIED.

All I can say is, those articles do help to illustrate the point.

 

[Jada59]

A friend of mine who's edited some of my non-erotic writing, pointed me to this article one day: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/if-women-wrote-men-the-way-men-write-women, and after that, I just didn't want to write women at all.

When I did finally attempt it again, I was traumatised thinking how badly I'd fuck it up. (see here for shameless self promotion) It rated very, very badly.The number of 'views' vs the number of votes is staggeringly tiny. But I TRIED.

All I can say is, those articles do help to illustrate the point.

I actually read that before. Seems fine to me. My Valentine story didn't rate well either.

 

[Kojak01]

The debate about who can and can’t write what doesn’t need more fire. But it deserves to be made fun of now and then.

I must always think of this old joke when it comes to the difference of perception and as a consequence the difference in writing.

Wife’s Diary:

Tonight, I thought my husband was acting weird. We had made plans to meet at a nice restaurant for dinner. I was shopping with my friends all day long, so I thought he was upset at the fact that I was a bit late, but he made no comment on it. Conversation wasn’t flowing, so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so we could talk. He agreed, but he didn’t say much.

I asked him what was wrong; He said, ‘Nothing..’ I asked him if it was my fault that he was upset. He said he wasn’t upset, that it had nothing to do with me, and not to worry about it. On the way home, I told him that I
loved him. He smiled slightly, and kept driving. I can’t explain his behavior. I don’t know why he didn’t say, ‘I love you, too.’

When we got home, I felt as if I had lost him completely, as if he wanted nothing to do with me anymore. He just sat there quietly, and watched TV. He continued to seem distant and absent. Finally, with silence all around
us, I decided to go to bed. About 15 minutes later, he came to bed. But I still felt that he was distracted, and his thoughts were somewhere else. He fell asleep; I cried. I don’t know what to do. I’m almost sure that his thoughts are with someone else. My life is a disaster.

Husband’s Diary:

A two-foot putt...who the hell misses a two-foot putt?

 

[Handley_Page]

Love that joke.

 

[TxRad]

A two-foot putt...who the hell misses a two-foot putt?

A one legged golfer?

 

[Kojak01]

A one legged golfer?

A man talks about physical attributes, a woman would probably have said something along 'a man distracted by thoughts of why his wife loves him despite his imperfection'.


And that's why men can't write authentic female characters...

 

[TxRad]

A man talks about physical attributes, a woman would probably have said something along 'a man distracted by thoughts of why his wife loves him despite his imperfection'.


And that's why men can't write authentic female characters...

Ah, but what about the guy that doesn't get the joke? What does he write about?

Writing authentic female characters isn't a problem as long as you don't try to make them sound like a guy with tits. Women aren't a lot different than men in some ways and totally different in others. Sorting that out is the part that makes the character work. They are more mental than physical. That's why they have it all over guys and makes them hard to write for a lot of people.

JMHO.

 

[SimonDoom]

Is it a bad thing to write female characters the way people (men) want them to be? It seems like readers appreciate it. Several high rated Lit-stories are just like that.

It's not bad at all.

This is a fantasy story site. There's nothing wrong with people writing stories that indulge their fantasies. No one here should ever shy away from writing a story from the point of the view of the opposite sex.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Is it a bad thing to write female characters the way people (men) want them to be? It seems like readers appreciate it. Several high rated Lit-stories are just like that.

Writing fantasy characters and writing authentic characters is not necessarily the same thing. There's plenty of audience for both, it seems.

 

[NotWise]

Is it a bad thing to write female characters the way people (men) want them to be? It seems like readers appreciate it. Several high rated Lit-stories are just like that.

That might depend on whether you want women to read your erotica. If they're going to laugh at my stories then they should laugh at the parts that are supposed to be funny, not at the characterizations.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Is it a bad thing to write female characters the way people (men) want them to be? It seems like readers appreciate it. Several high rated Lit-stories are just like that.

Write for your intended audience. If you read chick lit, it's very different to novels written for guys. Same with sex and romance. Once you know your audience you can write what you know works for them.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Is it a bad thing to write female characters the way people (men) want them to be? It seems like readers appreciate it. Several high rated Lit-stories are just like that.

Not necessarily a bad thing. But it's definitely a bad idea to do so and then publicly congratulate yourself on how "authentic" your female characters are.

In my experience, though, it's not the only path to reader appreciation. I think the only time I've described a character's breasts was a story where I mentioned that they were slightly asymmetric. I still get quite decent ratings.

 

[lovecraft68]

Waste of time that's based on generalizations of how people perceive women act, speak, fuck, argue etc....

There are women who may fall into whatever the 'standard' behavior is for women, but many will be different same as with men.

I've written from the female POV both here and for pay and I'm sure some people can peg me as male, but just as many assume I'm female. Most feedback here has referred to me as female despite my never claiming to be.

That could also be because homophobic men want authors to be female so they don't feel 'gay' for being turned on by a guy's words, but who really knows?

This is another thing that people will look at and now hesitate to try writing female characters because they don't know if they can pull it off.

Who cares? Way too much attention here and other places is given to can you, should you, what if etc...than actual writing.

Go for it, or choose to sit and let things like this dictate what you do. If you are influenced by things like this? Don't bother, you're not a writer, you're a worrier.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't buy the premise of the thread.

Something like 35 million women snapped up copies of 50 Shades of Grey, with its cartoon characters, including the female protagonist/narrator. The bar one needs to clear is not that high. No man should be intimidated. Go for it.

Sure, if you lead off your story with "Trixie walked through the revolving door of the high rise office building, her firm, high 38 inch double-D breasts leading the way on the adventure to her new job with the multinational corporation led by the mysterious Travis DePravity", you're not going to score high in the credibility arena with the female audience. But intelligent male readers will think you suck, too.

Try not to suck, and you may go far. You have nothing to lose.

 

[SimonDoom]

Who cares? Way too much attention here and other places is given to can you, should you, what if etc...than actual writing.

Go for it, or choose to sit and let things like this dictate what you do. If you are influenced by things like this? Don't bother, you're not a writer, you're a worrier.

Agree 100%.

 

[Voboy]

"Trixie walked through the revolving door of the high rise office building, her firm, high 38 inch double-D breasts leading the way on the adventure to her new job with the multinational corporation led by the mysterious Travis DePravity"

Dammit. I told you not to post that beta version of my new story... now I have to start over again. I’ll have to change Trixie to a man, and give him an eleven-inch cock.

It’ll keep getting stuck in the revolving door. Comic hilarity will ensue.

In all seriousness, I don’t buy the premise either. Generalizers be generalizin’. Good writing is good writing, and decent writers can do many different things.

 

[NotWise]

I'm starting to think that it doesn't make much difference what opinions women post in this forum. There will always be men saying that it doesn't matter.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't buy the premise of the thread.

Something like 35 million women snapped up copies of 50 Shades of Grey, with its cartoon characters, including the female protagonist/narrator. The bar one needs to clear is not that high. No man should be intimidated. Go for it.

In all seriousness, I don’t buy the premise either. Generalizers be generalizin’. Good writing is good writing, and decent writers can do many different things.

...out of curiosity, what do you think the premise of the thread was?

 

[JasonClearwater]

Toby tugged on his tightest jeans, making sure his eight inch penis took centre stage. His shirt moulded to his 36A pecs, and while he knew he'd never be as big as some of the boys he'd seen working at Hartford & Hartford, he knew some women preferred them compact and perky.

It was his dream to work at the law firm, where young men trotted up and down the front steps every day in their suits and ties, their dress shoes slapping the marble. They were so handsome, so professional. He knew he was only a silly country boy, but if someone would just give him a chance, he too could be a 'Hartford boy'.

He stood in front of the mirror and practised posing to best show off his penis and pecs. After all, everyone else being interviewed would have three degrees in English literature, Classics and Computer Science; he had to make himself stand out somehow.

As he walked into Mrs Alberford's office, the woman stepped forward to shake his hand. He did his best to keep eye contact and give her a firm handshake, so she knew he was professional, despite his very visible pecs, which were held high front and centre by the tightness of his shirt.

He was hoping he'd caught her eye, and would stick in her memory, after all the other cute boys had had their turns under her steely gaze.

 

[NotWise]

Here was hoping he'd caught her eye, and would stick in her memory, after all the other cute boys had had their turns under her steely gaze.

That's a hoot. Does she have a whip to keep her boys in line?

 

[JasonClearwater]

That's a hoot. Does she have a whip to keep her boys in line?

I'm sure any self-respecting lawyer looking for a cute young man to work doing [whatever the fuck they do at law firms], would have a whip in her drawer. And since this is Lit, a set of graduating butt plugs and at least one set of fluffy restraints.

 

[clistenovena]

Something like 35 million women snapped up copies of 50 Shades of Grey, with its cartoon characters, including the female protagonist/narrator.

Proof that some women can't write authentic female characters.

As an aside, I will never, ever understand why that statistic came to be. Ever.

 

[NotWise]

I'm sure any self-respecting lawyer looking for a cute young man to work doing [whatever the fuck they do at law firms], would have a whip in her drawer. And since this is Lit, a set of graduating butt plugs and at least one set of fluffy restraints.

Well, I'm sure that for [whatever the fuck they do at law firms] it really only matters that he's cute, with an 8-inch dick and prominent pecs. They probably have casual Fridays where the boys oil each other up for a casual performance review.