Young Justice: Outsiders (OOC)

[Sean Renaud]

Not that I think any of my villains would have been in on a Scarab but the Ben 10 rogues are floating about if you need them.

 

[The Jeffinator]

Maybe Vilgax is an ally of Darkseid, and he eventually tracks the Omnitrix to Earth. Upon arrival, he discovers there is still a living Kryptonian, which is what draws Darkseid's attention to Earth once he discovers this -- he thought he had killed all the Kryptonians when he destroyed Krypton.

 

[Sean Renaud]

That works, though that's a LOT of firepower amassed. MY original thought was they are either unaware of each other or enemies. They don't really strike me as the sharing type and while it's always difficult to tell across difference series Vilgax seems to be presented as give or take on par with Darkseid (depending on what iteration of Supes your using as a benchmark of course. Super strenght, super durability, tracking laser eyes, he's just lacking flight really.

I'd be leaving Kevin on the rogues side of things as well and if we ever get to a major magic arc Charmcaster at the very least is an absolute must.

 

[The Jeffinator]

Well I wasn't thinking of Vilgax as an underling to Darkseid, more as equal baddies working in different parts of the galaxy or something. But that's still a ways off, so right now its really just throwing ideas around, lol.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I figured that, I was more just they don't seem much like the getting along type. Vilgax in Ben 10 does the same shit as Darkseid in DC. Sure he's teamed up with every major villain in the universe once or twice but you know it takes an average of three hours before someone back stabs someone. But like you said that's so far out we don't really need to concern ourselves with it.

 

[GuyRP]

Villain team-ups are wonderful stories that tend to force the hero out of their comfort zone and put them in serious peril for the audience. To avoid villain decay, the inevitable betrayal should be a large factor in the hero's victory.

Just one idiot's opinion

 

[The Jeffinator]

If Vilgax and Darkseid were working in the same area, they'd probably fight for control and dominance. But as long as they stay out of each others' way, there is no reason they can't be allies. They have different territories. Perhaps there is even a council of villains, warlords, and crime bosses throughout the galaxy who communicate through holographic meetings. And perhaps Darkseid defies the council laws by entering Vilgax's territory on his path to Earth to finish off the last Kryptonians. Or maybe the council approves Darkseid's incursion, which infuriates Vilgax or something. That also gives us an endgame baddie higher even than Darkseid -- the rest of the council.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I do like that, and it's not like the Milky Way isn't big enough for them to not be competing with each other. Hell according to damn near every fictional universe Earth is somehow at the ass end of no where galactically speaking. Like nobody in DC would give a shit about us if not for Superman. Nobody in Marvel would care if we didn't have the M'Kraan Crystal (or at least used to), in Ben 10 it's the Omnitrix, in Dragon Ball. . .oh wait it's that everybody is hell bent on killing the last 2 Saiyans. It's always something but they likely wouldn't even fight over us.

I like it. You should probably open the lounge soonish so we can keep the OOC as clean as possible.

 

[Lily_Wight]

Villain team-ups are wonderful stories that tend to force the hero out of their comfort zone and put them in serious peril for the audience. To avoid villain decay, the inevitable betrayal should be a large factor in the hero's victory.

Just one idiot's opinion

 

[The Jeffinator]

That brings back feels, Lily. Like a Reaper spear through the chest. . I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar. Ugh! *sound of flesh ripping and millions of fans crying*

Joss Whedon and George R.R. Martin walk into a room and everyone you ever loved dies.

We may as well just use this as the lounge since we're already on the second page. I can create an extra thread specifically for character profiles and plot-specific details. Anything we discuss here of importance I can sum up in a post on the other thread.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I don't particularly mind villain decay especially if you can find good ways for it to ebb and flow. Prowrestling tends to do a damn fine job of that except in a few cases. But I do see the point I just hate how that' the only way a villain team up loses. Nobody ever goes for help and gets help, rarely do they just get lucky. It's just that bad guys can't work together and in some cases it makes sense. I get why Lex, Darkseid and Brainiac are continually fucking each other over. Hell what I don't get is why any of them even feign trusting the others at this point. Ultimately they all have mutually exclusive goals. On the other hand there is this show about witches on WGN called Salem. And really most of the witches are working towards the same goal and the few that aren't could accomplish their goal and go away. It's almost painful to watch the chronic backstabbing syndrom they all suffer from because if any two of them could stop fucking each other for ten minutes they'd rule the world, split it 20/20 and forget there was 60% of the world left over for anybody left alive.

 

[The Jeffinator]

That is the problem with Sith Lords too, which is why Darth Bane created the Rule of Two -- one to embody power, and one to crave it.

 

[GuyRP]

It's not he only way. There's the cavalry, where the hero's earlier attempt to call for back-up finally gets through and his friends arrive. There's also the Sinister Six, where the hero faces each villain one-on-one, triumphing over each in turn. There's the evitable betrayal, where an alliance is purposely sabotaged by the hero. There may even be more than that.

But villain decay is a serious thing for serial stories, especially superheroes. Dr. Doom was used sparingly in the early days of the FF to prevent it. Magneto suffered from significant villain decay during the initial x-men run. To add suspense a villain is often introduced as overwhelmingly powerful, someone the hero can barely beat.

That's also why prowrestling can go up and down, no one is overwhelmingly powerful. It only takes three seconds to lose a match. That's why Undertaker's streak was viable for a quarter of a century, he came close to losing in every match. Since coming back Brock Lesner has been dominating the WWE more than anyone, but even he's lost a few matches.

One of the things that keeps Luthor from suffering from villain decay is that he's not overwhelmingly powerful. His chances against Superman, on any given day, are slim to none. You can have him in every episode, every comic because he is scheming in the background, pulling the puppet's strings until he has stacked the odds so drastically in his favor that he is guaranteed to win. And he usually achieves a partial victory.

Thank you Lilly, I always hear Wash's voice whenever I type "inevitable betrayal."

 

[The Jeffinator]

Hey Lily, does the "wight" in your name refer to Game of Thrones?

And another way to avoid villain decay is to go the DBZ route -- you can make a handful of baddies last forever by dragging out the fights and having many smaller parts to a larger battle. I mean holy shit, it took them like over a hundred episodes to defeat Buu, and even then, part of him lived on and the other part was reincarnated.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Villain Decay is a problem for serial stories but not as deadly as a lot of people seem to make it out to be. The problem usually lies as the villain becomes increasingly easy to beat not that he's been beaten lots of times.

As a Ben 10 fan you can watch Vilgax suffered some of the worst villain decay I've ever seen. In the first three seasons he's presented as a god. Nothing Ben is remotely enough and he's lucky to survive battles with him. Hell his first real victory against Vilgax involves overloading the engines of a space ship, stalling like a mother fucker and then jumping out gaping hole and reminding Vilgax that he can't fly. It doesn't kill him but it at least incapacitates him for several months. The next few seasons you see him and it's a big deal. Then he goes through like four of being laughably weak. To the point where Ben makes fun of him. (Then he defeats Cthlulu and everything is terrible before he finally enteres permanent joke zone.)

As for DBZ the villains never live long enough to suffer any decay. They all go out on top. The problem with DBZ is the scales are so broken. The name of the game there was "can't keep up." If you don't have Saiyan Blood by the end of the Frieza saga the best use of your time is carying the wounded from the battle field, bringing senzu beans and being prepared to make a wish.

 

[Lily_Wight]

Hey Lily, does the "wight" in your name refer to Game of Thrones?

Sort of, but Lord of the rings more specifically. Its just a reference to a type of Undead.


I don't think dragonball Z is a good model for how we should be structuring our game. A fault is scale is absolutely correct. The villains were constantly being outdone by the hero's ability to level up over and over again.

Young justice, IMO, handles this problem well. The best way to built tension in a story is to have your heroes face tough odds, and if you heroes are young inexperienced and under-powered then its easy to set stakes.

In young justice the team never figures out how to go ssj3, they just plan and work together to overcome the odds. That way the biggest factor for who wins a skirmish is the level of preparation.

They fought Cheshire, and sports master lots of times, but no one learned any new techniques, and it was a close fight every time, no matter who came out on top.

If the villains spring a trap on us we can lose a fight. If we come in with a good plan, we can win, even if we are outnumbered and outgunned.

 

[Sean Renaud]

As huge a DBZ fan as I am it's only a good model for spectacle fighting and perhaps for structuring the cosmos (considering how piss poor the planning was it relaly did fall together beautifully) But no wouldn't model much after it, even if I was doing a DBZ RP I wouldn't take more than broad strokes.

In Young Justice and to a lesser degree the Justice League preperation really is everything. I say to a lesser degree with the Justice League because having the right team on hand can really overcome a lot of piss poor planning. I can only imagine what happens when you're like "ha ha, I came for Superman! Wait. . . Green Lanterns. . .all fucking three of you?! And Shazaam?" Welp, Fuck me.

Though I would argue that followign the time skip between S1 and S2 that the team does get considerably better to the point that Robin has moved on to being a member of the Justice League Proper and being fair Super Girl in that reality is a step up from Super Boy (assuming he doesn't have slappers) But overall that is spot on.

Anyway I was mostly (originally) pointing out that you don't need to completely limit yourself to the DC villains if you need one, the Ben 10 universe is open and as long as you don't introduce someone on par with Darkseid and them I don't think Jeff is going to bitch if you bring your own custom villains. I'm certainly going to bring a few for Star, though I might just start by draining the Static Shock crew, especially since Static is my back up if I kill one of mine or put one on a bus.

 

[The Jeffinator]

Yeah, the power levels get pretty insane in DBZ. I mean now he has a fucking blue-haired form called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. And Golden Freeza? Gimme a break, haha. Prior to going SS1 for the first time, Goku's power level was most likely right around 1,000,000 when fighting Freeza. However, just over a year earlier, his power level was only 416. And five years before that, while fighting Piccolo at the tournament, it was 260. Three years before that, when fighting King Piccolo, it was 180. So over the course of eight years, he only gained a power increase of 236, but then the ninth year he gained an increase of 999,584. Then during the Android Saga, the power levels raise up to around 65,000,000, before capping out at around 250,000,000 in the battle between Gohan and Cell. It gets pretty ridiculous, lol.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yeah, though I LOVE Golden Frieza and aside from the silly transformation the rest is heavily supported by his dialogue. The fucker was monster freak. He didn't train to be damn near SSJ in power, he just was. So four months of training with real equipment as opposed to Bulma piecing together crap from broken Frieza space pods and BAM the fucker is right back on top of the food chain. But yeah that shit gets bannanas. Most Shonen Anime do around the midway point.

I'd point out that Naruto does a damn good job with Villain Decay though. Even come the end of the entire show the major villains from early on are still damn good threats. Even Zabuza proves to be effective late game and Oorichimaru is still in the top 10 most deadly people on the planet when it all ends.

Bleach isn't half bad in that regard either. . .at least not if you're a Soul Reaper. Sucks to be you if you're human though.

 

[Lily_Wight]

I am a big fan of Naruto, Bleach, and DBZ.

But instead of using the term villain decay, I use the term Power Creep. Shonen anime and manga are so centered on learning new powers and transformations that the heroes become the problem story wise.

I like seeing all the new transformations and stuff, too. But Young Justice is probably in my top 2 super hero animations for the way they handled the passage of time, relative strengths and fitting into a world with that feels as rich as the comics.

 

[GuyRP]

I'll agree on Young Justice being amazingly well made. It is easily my favorite superhero cartoon and one of my favorite superhero tv shows. Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is up there too.

Sean, I don't care which villain helped create Red Beetle. Whichever the boss thinks will help move the story forward is fine. Even a goofy old villain is fine, as long as I get a chance to clean him up. Sportsmaster was a goofy old villain. YJ did an amazing job taking a character created to not violate the comics code authority or offend parents and bring him into the present as a viable, dangerous villain.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Oh, whoever you pick for your villain is just fine. Didn't mean to intrude.

And dear god the Comic Code, the less said the better. But YJ did make Sportsmaster into someone you did not wish to fuck with. I actually prefer Avengers Assmble to Earth's Mightiest Heroes over all. Though I wish they'd stuck with the original cast instead of trying to mimic the MCU. If i had to pick though Batman the Animated Series is still king for me with Spectacular Spiderman a close second.

 

[Lily_Wight]

Batgirl

Batgirl

Real Name: Barbara Gordon
Age: 18
Birthday: September, 23rd
Birthplace: Gotham City, New Jersey

Skills
Blessed with an eidetic memory, and genius level intelligence, Barbara Gordon has mastered many skills. She is a gifted hacker, and programmer. She has studied many martial arts and acrobatic disciplines. She has even studied detective techniques by watching her father, and later under Batman's tutelage. She has trained her body to its physical peak. Her mind is focuses like a laser when she sets a goal, and he goal right now is to be the best crime fighter she can be.

Gear/Equipment
Barbara has many items she carries with her into the field. Some supplied by batman, and some supplied or modified on her own.

She carries batarangs, trackers, and sticky explosives. She also has modified her batman supplied, wrist-mounted holographic computer to better suit her hacking, allowing it to accept eye movement inputs as well as hand movements. She has designed a projectile that can be fired onto most electronic devices giving her remote link access to her wrist console. She just needs to be within firing range.

Batman has also supplied her with the same smart silk grapnel that Nightwing uses.

Her mask also functions as a helmet, protecting her skull from degree of impact.

Her utility belt carries a visor that can cycle through night vision, thermal, and can tint themselves to block out blinding light.

The helmet also houses her radio for keeping in touch with her team.

Batgirl's suit is made of batman supplied Nomex Triweave kevlar, for maximum protect against attack, and fire or electricity without sacrificing agility.

Powers/Abilities
Barbara's true strength is her exceptional intelligence, which she has focused on physical and mental training.

Background
Barbara grew up in Gotham watching her father, Jim, valiantly crusade against injustice from inside the corrupt police department. He had her training in self defense since she was six years old.

It wasnt until her early teens when she saw her father working with the famous vigilante, Batman, that her ambition to be like her father shifted to following in batman's footsteps.

Her first foray into crime fighting didnt go well. She had a home made costume, and hung around the police station until she was able to follow batman to a crime in progress.
He saved her life, but no attempt to discourage her could ever keep her from trying, to become Batgirl.

Eventually, Batman took her under his wing and trained and outiftted her. If she was going to follow his path she should do it the right way.
It wasnt until she was already long time colleges with Robin that he revealed his identity as her classmate at Gotham Academy, Dick Grayson.
The two became close friends, but never romantically involved.

She and Dick both graduated early and went to different colleges, but as crime fighters they stayed in touch and frequently helped each other, even after his change to the Nightwing persona.

Jason Todd took up the mantle of Robin, and she worked with him on occasion, but by that time she was doing mostly solo work.

Her father is still in the dark about her Vigilante identity.

 

[GypsyGirl84]

If the cast isn't becoming too crowded, I have a rough idea for a pair of original characters called Criss-Cross.

Veronika and Nikoleta Cebotari -- Came to the US as young children, orphaned by one of the many "political shiftings" in their part of the world, taken in and raised by their wealthy but eccentric American grandaunt.

Veronika, the elder sister at 19, is a gifted athlete and adept at martial arts, but not to the point that it would put her on level with the fighters in the Justice League or the members of Young Justice. She enjoys a certain amount of celebrity as an extreme athlete or, as she like to think of herself, a modern day Victorian adventuress. She has been boar hunting with a spear in Europe, climbed Everest (and wants to ascend the seven major summits before her twenty-first birthday), BASE jumped off Angel Falls...the list is endless. She is almost preternaturally gifted with mechanical and electrical systems, loves jeeps and trail bikes, but holds sports cars and racing motorcycles in disdain. Loves puzzles of all sorts, has a quick eye for even the most minute details and establishing connections between people and things. Often jokes about changing her name to Irene Adler. Is friendly but not an uber-extrovert. Speaks without a hint of her Eastern European background but when she get's pissed off, slips into her native langue.

Nikoleta, the younger sister at 18, is quiet but not shy. She just doesn't feel the need to talk unless she has something to say, and when she does, there is a touch of her native land in her speech. Never seems to get overly emotional about anything. She has a systematic approach to problems, preferring to study them at length before attempting to solve them. She does not become upset, however, if the timetable gets necessarily accelerated. She has an encyclopedic and eclectic memory and, for someone of such a young age, an extensive academic social network. Her true passions are literature and philosophy, and she could think of no better evening spent than one in front of the fire reading All Quiet on the Western Front or Seneca the Younger. Her more practical scholarly pursuits, however, deal with the arcane. Though Nikoleta does know more than a few spells, her preferred method of magic is the building of artifacts, usually of the limited use kind. She is also very happy to pursue any magical research assigned to her.

Criss-Cross -- There is a mystical connection between the two sisters which manifests itself in many mundane ways. For example, during a particularly heated make out situation, Veronika brought things to a screeching halt, stating that Nikoleta wasn't ready to go that far yet (on a side note, Nikoleta doesn't date). The two young woman share their own twin-like language, which combines English, their native tongue and something else entirely.

On the mystical side, the two woman can "lend" each other parts of their essence, which amplifies one or more positive traits of the other. This "lending" is short term, and doesn't appear to have any lasting effects, either short or long term. And then the two can "combine" themselves, creating a unique individual. Nikoleta calls it "Channeling a Platonic Ideal" and is not comfortable with the process at all, and has to be convinced by Veronika of it's necessity. Nikoleta has to initiate the process, and does not talk about the magic behind it. Veronika doesn't push.

So far, two "Platonic Ideals" have been created. One calls herself Temerarious. She is tough, abnormally fast, an incredible fighter and has shown the ability to almost instantaneously come up with a counter-move to any physical attack launched against her. She is also argumentative, sarcastic, hotheaded and more than once has acted on her own, spurning a coordinated plan. She also is usually reluctant to end her "channeling", allowing the sisters to return. The other calls herself Intransigent. She is incredibly tough and strong, almost (if not at) the level exhibited by Kryptonians. She obeys orders, but shows no initiative, and answers all questions with single words or grunts. Point her in the direction of an enemy, and she will keep attacking until either her or her target is destroyed. She is, however, a slugger and not a fighter. When not under directions to attack, she sits in one place and stares into the distance, usually not acknowledging questions or non-attack orders. She readily ends her "channelings" when told to.

There may be other "Platonic Ideals" for channeling, though Veronika doesn't know, and Nikoleta is evasive about the subject.

 

[GuyRP]

Interesting. I like the combining idea, its a very original spin on an old trope.