Being a woman in geek culture

[satindesire]

Ah, I see you edited your post

The backbone of feminism, "the patriarchy", does not exist in the first world.

"Rape culture" does not exist outside of prisons.

Look at the "donglegate" link I posted earlier for an example of a petty issue.

Feminism also paints women as helpless victims which I believe to be a subversion of the original cause and actually very misogynistic.

The Patriarchy doesn't exist "in the first world"? Really? Can you provide proof of this?

Rape culture doesn't exist outside of prisons? Again, can you provide proof of this?

Also, one example "Donglegate" does not prove that sexism and misogyny against women is not a historical and current issue facing women. If you can use that sort of "proof" to prove that male sexism exists, then the mountains of evidence that I can happily provide you proves that female sexism exists. You're going to have to back up your words with hard data.

Feminism does not portray women as helpless victims. That's Patriarchy, actually. Feminism states facts...."These things happen. Now we need to do something to prevent them from happening in the future." That isn't portraying women as helpless victims, that's stating how women are victimized and then encouraging people to stop it. To claim that Feminism is misogynistic is patently false.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Modern feminism isn't supporting equality, it's more of a conspiracy theory. Feminism in its original form was created when women genuinely had fewer rights than men in Western society, so women wanted to correct that and get the same rights for themselves. That was a good movement. But today that goal was long since been achieved

Which rights, in your opinion, were women fighting for in the good old days, and how have they been acheived?

I mean, if you want to complain about bad arguments, you're going to have to do better than these vague generalities.

so feminists simply find things to be offended about and rattle on about how the first world is oppressing them as they sit in their comfortable houses with their MacBooks going to university to get a degree in "Gender Studies."

We have been talking about going to work, not sitting around the house. And about what happens at work. To women. In tech industries, when they have to deal with men. Most feminists aren't sitting in comfortable houses, most of us are living on our own without support. Many of us are the only income earner in the family. Huge numbers of us are long past university age.
You might be a college kid, but I haven't been for a very long time.
[/QUOTE]

This is my issue. If they were complaining about Middle Eastern cultures where women are genuinely being oppressed today then I would be supporting the movement. But they aren't. They focus on either petty issues or made up ones.[/QUOTE]If only women worried about the things you think they should-- we could all bask in the knowledge that you approve of feminism.

 

[BSSHD]

You're right, you haven't said any of those things specifically, but you have stated that modern feminism is "bastardized" and every person I've spoken to that's stated the -same exact things- that you have have stated the things that I've mentioned. If you don't like being thrown under the bus due to stereotypes, perhaps you shouldn't do it to us, then, eh?

I've not stereotyped anyone. I just said I disagree with the movement.

You didn't present arguments, actually.

You said:

I can't take anything that uses the term "Male Privilege" seriously. It makes me feel like I'm on one of those awful Tumblr blogs.--IE. "Male Privilege isn't "REAL".

And you've not shown evidence it is real.

The following goes for all your other comments on my previous posts: it is not up to me to prove that your assertions are false, it is up to you to provide they are factual. Writing "male privilege is real" does not make it so. Where is the real world evidence of it? Not just anecdotes, but evidence.

If you're able to work in those industries as a woman they can't be too badly sexist.--IE If you aren't being openly discriminated against specifically because you're a woman (which is illegal and would cost people their jobs, I might remind you) sexism in the geek industry can't exist.

As your yourself just pointed out, institutional sexism is illegal in the US. I rest my case on this one. If those companies discriminated against females they'd be fined and the people responsible fired.

Are you saying they can't be? Do you think someone should police fictionland to make sure feminists don't get offended? As someone on an erotica forum I would have thought you'd be a little more open minded. Besides, you know who really gets off on rape fantasies? Women.--IE Some women think it's sexy, so it can't be sexist!

How is it sexist? If I write a story where a woman is raped and murdered, how does that make me a sexist? Especially seeing as women enjoy those fantasies. What if a woman were to write such a story, would she be sexist too?

This looks like another case of "feminism means women should have the freedom to make the decisions I agree with."

Those aren't arguments. Those are logical fallacies where you fully admit to "not seeing", but instead of LISTENING to us when we say "Hey, these things happen and are problems" you're going..."NOPE. I don't see it so it doesn't exist!"

Because feminist arguments aren't littered with logical fallacies? The very post I'm replying to started with a straw man argument.

That's not the fertile ground ready for a debate. These are the words of a man who is uneducated and does not WANT to be educated.

I have not seen any attempts at "education", only insults and refusal to back emotionally driven claims up with hard evidence.

You answer my questions FIRST and then I'll answer yours. What are the "petty arguments and made up arguments" that feminists complain about?

I answered that already.

 

[Loverskitten]

I've linked to this film here before. I can't for the life of me find the entire thing online anywhere. I happened upon it on PBS late one night, and the first review on this page nailed my reaction. If you can find the film showing anywhere, watch! Soooo good
http://wonderwomendoc.com/

 

[Netzach]

"As your yourself just pointed out, institutional sexism is illegal in the US. I rest my case on this one. If those companies discriminated against females they'd be fined and the people responsible fired."

Geek culture in operation. I would like to know what fictional planet you're on.

 

[BSSHD]

The Patriarchy doesn't exist "in the first world"? Really? Can you provide proof of this?

Can you provide proof it does? Look up "Russell's Teapot."

Rape culture doesn't exist outside of prisons? Again, can you provide proof of this?

Raping a woman is pretty much considered to be one of the lowest things a man can do. It's hardly endorsed and accepted is it?

Also, one example "Donglegate" does not prove that sexism and misogyny against women is not a historical and current issue facing women. If you can use that sort of "proof" to prove that male sexism exists, then the mountains of evidence that I can happily provide you proves that female sexism exists. You're going to have to back up your words with hard data.

I agree it's a historical issue but I disagree it's a current issue.

For more examples of pretty issues you can browse Jezebel. I'd do it myself but I don't feel like giving myself an aneurysm today.

Feminism does not portray women as helpless victims. That's Patriarchy, actually. Feminism states facts...."These things happen. Now we need to do something to prevent them from happening in the future." That isn't portraying women as helpless victims, that's stating how women are victimized and then encouraging people to stop it. To claim that Feminism is misogynistic is patently false.

The patriarchy does not exist. Feminism suggests that women are being held down by this mysterious "patriarchy" and they are unable to think for themselves even when they have all the same rights men do. That, in my eyes, is misogyny.

Which rights, in your opinion, were women fighting for in the good old days, and how have they been acheived?

The right to vote, the right to work, the right to own property, the right to make money, the right to live independently from men. Basically the rights enabling them to live the same way men traditionally have.

Again I ask, can you provide me with the rights men have which women do not?

I mean, if you want to complain about bad arguments, you're going to have to do better than these vague generalities. We have been talking about going to work, not sitting around the house. And about what happens at work. To women. In tech industries, when they have to deal with men. Most feminists aren't sitting in comfortable houses, most of us are living on our own without support. Many of us are the only income earner in the family.

It seems to me that someone busy doing such important work wouldn't be complaining about first world problems and conspiracy theories.

If only women worried about the things you think they should-- we could all bask in the knowledge that you approve of feminism.

If only they worried about real issues, maybe feminism would make a real change in the world.

 

[BSSHD]

"As your yourself just pointed out, institutional sexism is illegal in the US. I rest my case on this one. If those companies discriminated against females they'd be fined and the people responsible fired."

Geek culture in operation. I would like to know what fictional planet you're on.

Gallifrey. Obviously.

 

[KoPilot]

I've got a couple docs to link to also! Granted, they haven't been made yet and are both kickstarters, but I've backed both of them and can't wait to get my copies:

Ladydrawers: "Comics Undressed" - doc about representation in comics

"Gaming in Color" - doc about queer and female representation in video games

 

[KoPilot]

"As your yourself just pointed out, institutional sexism is illegal in the US. I rest my case on this one. If those companies discriminated against females they'd be fined and the people responsible fired."

Geek culture in operation. I would like to know what fictional planet you're on.

A world in which the bullies should be allowed to decide what bullying is.

 

[BSSHD]

A world in which the bullies should be allowed to decide what bullying is.

More conspiracy theory nonsense. "I'm a helpless women and all the men are conspiring against me!" Please.

 

[satindesire]

I've not stereotyped anyone. I just said I disagree with the movement.

Yes you have. Several times in this very thread, I might add.

And you've not shown evidence it is real.

The following goes for all your other comments on my previous posts: it is not up to me to prove that your assertions are false, it is up to you to provide they are factual. Writing "male privilege is real" does not make it so. Where is the real world evidence of it? Not just anecdotes, but evidence.

Actually, it's up to us both to back up our arguments with proof. You can't sit here and say "Well I don't have to prove that Patriarchy isn't real." If you want an actual intellectual debate with evidence, you have to prove your side just as much as I have to prove mine. If you can't or won't do that, then your arguments can be dismissed. Since you walked into MY discussion about sexism in geek culture with the claims that the problems that face women aren't "REAL", then I invite you to prove yourself truthful first. I will be happy to, after you have stated your side of things, state MY side.

As your yourself just pointed out, institutional sexism is illegal in the US. I rest my case on this one. If those companies discriminated against females they'd be fined and the people responsible fired.

Sure. That doesn't mean that indirect, behind-closed-doors sexism isn't a very real problem. OPEN discrimination is one thing, but subtle microaggressions are a totally different animal.

I have not seen any attempts at "education", only insults and refusal to back emotionally driven claims up with hard evidence.

Emotionally driven claims? How is stating that Patriarchy and sexism is a real problem that women face in culture and geek subculture "emotionally driven"? No one here has spoken about our "fee fees", we're speaking about massive, over-arching issues that women face on a daily basis that prevent us from being treated with respect and accepted.

 

[Netzach]

More conspiracy theory nonsense. "I'm a helpless women and all the men are conspiring against me!" Please.

So you honestly truly believe in your little head that every single instance of discrimination, harrassment, indimidation, quid-pro-quo based on having tits in the workplace is prosecuted and rectified and that since there's a law, the law is followed. How cute.

Some of us actually live on Earth and stopped believing in the tooth fairy.

 

[KoPilot]

Sure. That doesn't mean that indirect, behind-closed-doors sexism isn't a very real problem. OPEN discrimination is one thing, but subtle microaggressions are a totally different animal.

And that's not to even mention those who feel so strongly the need to act on their prejudice against women as to deem breaking the law worth it.

Satin, just gotta say that man, I sure am glad you've got a high tolerance for this stuff... cause 90% of the time I don't!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Can you provide proof it does? Look up "Russell's Teapot."



Raping a woman is pretty much considered to be one of the lowest things a man can do. It's hardly endorsed and accepted is it?

Proof of both things in one handy image;

I agree it's a historical issue but I disagree it's a current issue.

For more examples of pretty issues you can browse Jezebel. I'd do it myself but I don't feel like giving myself an aneurysm today.



The patriarchy does not exist. Feminism suggests that women are being held down by this mysterious "patriarchy" and they are unable to think for themselves even when they have all the same rights men do. That, in my eyes, is misogyny.

But here we are thinking for ourselves-- talking about things we feel are important-- and here you are all upset because we aren't thinking about what you want us to think.

The right to vote, the right to work, the right to own property, the right to make money, the right to live independently from men. Basically the rights enabling them to live the same way men traditionally have.

Again I ask, can you provide me with the rights men have which women do not?

The right to live in the same way that men traditionally have. The right to be judged on our competence first instead of our looks. The right to bodily autonomy.

It seems to me that someone busy doing such important work wouldn't be complaining about first world problems and conspiracy theories.

If only they worried about real issues, maybe feminism would make a real change in the world.

It seems to me that you haven't paid enough attention to anything that women are actually doing.


Well... this has been fun, but I'm done feeding the troll.

 

[KoPilot]

Just gonna put this here too :

 

[BSSHD]

Yes you have. Several times in this very thread, I might add.

When? I've disagreed with a movement, I have not made stereotypical comments about the people supporting it. I prefer a higher level is discourse than "feminists are fat and hairy lol."

Actually, it's up to us both to back up our arguments with proof. You can't sit here and say "Well I don't have to prove that Patriarchy isn't real." If you want an actual intellectual debate with evidence, you have to prove your side just as much as I have to prove mine. If you can't or won't do that, then your arguments can be dismissed. Since you walked into MY discussion about sexism in geek culture with the claims that the problems that face women aren't "REAL", then I invite you to prove yourself truthful first. I will be happy to, after you have stated your side of things, state MY side.

Okay. Well, the way I see the issue is pretty simple. If a woman wants a serious career and she is willing to study and gain the correct qualifications like anyone else, she has just as much of a chance of getting a job as a man. Discrimination laws make it illegal for women to be rejected from a job just because they're women, and if a less qualified man gets the job instead, you are able to sue the company.

Additionally, the scales have been tipped in the favour of women in some industries because they offer some scholarships and jobs only to women. Here is a recent real world example. Note that this "reverse discrimination" is accepted without much complaint, yet if a company in the US only offered certain positions to men, there would be what I can only describe as a shit fit.

I believe that equal opportunities are important, which is another reason why I dislike modern day feminism, because it supports "reverse discrimination" policies which in fact harm real equality.

But that's basically the argument - a woman has equal, if not increased, opportunity to enter any career she wants compared to a man. She can then proceed to make a lot of money if she's good at her job and never have to be with a man if she does not want to. Women have the same level of independence and freedom as men in our society.

Now that I have laid out my argument, will you lay down yours?

Sure. That doesn't mean that indirect, behind-closed-doors sexism isn't a very real problem. OPEN discrimination is one thing, but subtle microaggressions are a totally different animal.

"Microaggressions" are just first world problems.

Emotionally driven claims? How is stating that Patriarchy and sexism is a real problem that women face in culture and geek subculture "emotionally driven"? No one here has spoken about our "fee fees", we're speaking about massive, over-arching issues that women face on a daily basis that prevent us from being treated with respect and accepted.

Because there is no patriarchy. There is no big force holding women down. There is no conspiracy to attack women. It just doesn't exist. Yet modern feminism puts feelings above facts so that they can believe otherwise.

 

[BSSHD]

Just gonna put this here too :

A fancy infographic that has been debunked many times.

 

[BSSHD]

Proof of both things in one handy image;

You know what? I'll give you that one. The Republican Party in the US are assholes. But there's a reason they're not in power and the people who've said those things have been widely discredited. They are not speaking on behalf of how the actual society thinks.

 

[Stella_Omega]

A fancy infographic that has been debunked many times.

No... it really hasn't.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You know what? I'll give you that one. The Republican Party in the US are assholes. But there's a reason they're not in power and the people who've said those things have been widely discredited. They are not speaking on behalf of how the actual society thinks.

Really? Are you sure about that? Who voted so many of them in at the state level?

 

[BSSHD]

No... it really hasn't.

Yeah, it has.

I also want to point out that if a person has not actually been found guilty of rape by a court of law, you can't just call them a rapist because you like to assume they committed the crime but got away with it. If a court has not found them guilty it means they can't prove the crime was committed by that person. It does no good to anyone to assume otherwise based on no evidence.

 

[BSSHD]

Really? Are you sure about that? Who voted so many of them in at the state level?

There are many factors deciding who someone votes for. As an example, I prefer free market economic policies, so if I was voting based primarily on the economy I might vote for them. It's not like every man in the US thought "they think rape is okay, I'll vote for those guys!"

 

[Stella_Omega]

forwarded

 

[KoPilot]

It's at this point that I like to ask the person arguing with me:

Why should I believe your position? What exactly are the repercussions of my position that you find so reprehensible?

If the answer is "because I'm right and you're wrong", then they're a complete waste of time.

 

[satindesire]

Can you provide proof it does? Look up "Russell's Teapot."

Let's start with the definition of Patriarchy: http://sociology.socialsciencedictionary.com/Sociology-Dictionary/PATRIARCHY

Now let's look at the social structure that dominates the Patriarchy and how it affects the people within it.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress...ames-all-men-even-decent-men-for-womens-woes/

http://zingerella.livejournal.com/73987.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/11/america-is-still-a-patriarchy/265428/

The reason the Patriarchy exists is because we historically have put men in positions of power and authority, and oppressed women as "not fit" for equal status.

Except there is no historical, institutionalized oppression of men as subordinate or servants of women. The evidence of the culturally forced servitude of women can be found historically in places like the Bible, for instance, which denotes a culture that devalued women as merely methods of obtaining wealth, children and property.

Greek, Roman, Mosaic, Hebrew, Celtic, Germanic, Assyrian, Christian, and Babylonian cultures legally and socially viewed women as lesser. Ancient texts that influenced Western European thought and law for many centuries, and which are still studied and revered today, such as Homer's Iliad, Virgil's Aeneid, the Old Testament, the pontifications of Aristotle, Plutarch, Hippocrates, Philo, Cicero, all mention and in some cases 'justify' the subjection of women to men.

n Ancient Greece, Athenian women were given no education and were married at puberty to grown men. They remained forever the property of their fathers, who could divorce them and make them marry another. They lived in segregation and could not leave the house without a chaperone. They could not buy or sell land. If one were raped her husband had either to divorce her or lose his citizenship. A raped woman was no longer allowed to wear jewellery or take part in public ceremonies.

Under Roman law the power of the husband was absolute; he could chastise his wife even - until the later Roman period - to the point of killing her.

The Gentoo Code is a legal code translated from Sanskrit to Persian and then from Persian to English by the East India Company. One chapter, 'Of what concerns women', included this edict: 'A man, both by day and night, must keep his wife somuch in subjection that she by no means be mistress of her own actions... If a man, by confinement and threats, cannot guard his wife, he shall give her a large sum of money, and make her mistress of her income and expenses, and appoint her to dress victuals for the Dewtah (i.e the Diety)'...'Women have six qualities... an inordinate desire for jewels and fine furniture and nice victuals; violent anger; deep resentment; another person's good appears even in their eyes; they commit bad actions.

Under English Common Law a woman's legal identity disappeared upon marriage, she was a 'feme covert' a woman eclipsed, covered by her husband. She could no longer contract, sue or be sued. All her property, her dowry or portion, and anything she earned or inherited during the marriage belonged automatically to her husband. with the exception of paraphernalia (clothes, jewels, bedlinen and plate). He had a life interest in any real estate but could not sell her land without her consent.

During the Renaissance women lost even more of what little economic power they had, because men increasingly went out of the home to work in all-male professions, thus separating home and work, leaving women behind, working unpaid in the home.

Education was revered by society and the famous literary salons of the period were centres of intellectual debate and educational lectures. Women were generally excluded from them, because merely teaching girls to read and write was considered unneccessary and even folly by most people. Some humanists argued that aristocratic women should be educated, and indeed some were; however, a woman who was exceptionally accomplished risked being labelled as 'mannish' or - much worse - accused of being a witch.

As one would expect, women's subordination is reflected in the fictional literature of the day. In The Taming of the Shrew (c1592), Kate, now tamed, gives a lesson to other women on the natural order:

Thy husband is thy lord, thy life, thy keeper,
Thy head, thy sovereign . . .
Such duty as the subject owes the prince,
Even such a woman oweth to her husband...

The church was extremely powerful and religious fundamentalism dominated every aspect of life in Britain to a degree that people of today often find hard to imagine. Girls continued to be indoctrinated from birth they were the instruments of the devil, who lured men away from God and into sin. People believed that Adam was created first, then Eve was created from his body to serve and obey him. Women were inferior to men and this meant strict obedience to fathers and brothers as well as husbands. Anything else was unnatural and against God. Famous thinkers, philosophers and writers repeatedly restated women's natural subjection to men. For example John Knox, leader of the Protestant Reformation, wrote in 1558 that 'Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man'. Perhaps to ensure absolutely that his wife would be inferior, servile and obedient, at the age of 50 he chose for a wife a girl of just 17. It is very pertinent that none of this has prevented his being hailed, even today, as 'the greatest Reformer in the history of Scotland'.

A woman's worth and standing depended on her strict chastity, once again reducing women to nothing but a way to have sons, ensuring the filial line, and securing wealth and property.

Because men have historically BEEN in positions of power for longer than America even existed, the prevalent religiously-fueled dismissal of women as incapable of dealing with equal status continues the cycle. The total secularization of society can be one way we can escape from this. When the Religious Right no longer control the wealth, government and voting privileges, America will be a much more equal nation.

Raping a woman is pretty much considered to be one of the lowest things a man can do. It's hardly endorsed and accepted is it?

Rape culture isn't just about ENDORSING rape as okay. That's a gross oversimplification. Rape culture is also about the common victim-blaming and slut-shaming that happens to the victims, and how the rapists are often pitied rather than shunned. Example? The Stubenville Rape case.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/03/steubenville-rape-twitter-cnn/63349/

http://www.ibtimes.com/steubenville...cebook-posts-blame-rape-victim-photos-1136721

How about Norwood Colorado? http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/ar...-male-or-female-deserves-to-be-blamed/277598/

The University of Kent: http://www.independent.co.uk/studen...all-too-real-at-our-universities-8709851.html

The Ariel Castro Trial: http://www.policymic.com/articles/58387/how-the-ariel-castro-trial-exposes-america-s-rape-culture

How about where I combine all of my concerns in one and talk about how rape threats affected a woman involved in geek culture? http://groupthink.jezebel.com/ceo-to-gamer-complaining-about-rape-threats-hes-tire-996706957

And then the Office of National Statistics did a poll, a full 1 in 12 people admitted to blaming the victim of rape if the victim was drunk, under the influence, or flirted with the rapist. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...im-drunk-flirt_n_2638103.html?just_reloaded=1

For more examples of pretty issues you can browse Jezebel. I'd do it myself but I don't feel like giving myself an aneurysm today.

Ah, so you're firmly in the camp of "I'll say things but won't explain myself or back up my claims with evidence." Right. I'll be sure to completely dismiss you every time you claim this from now on.

The patriarchy does not exist. Feminism suggests that women are being held down by this mysterious "patriarchy" and they are unable to think for themselves even when they have all the same rights men do. That, in my eyes, is misogyny.

No, actually, Feminism doesn't suggest that at all. Again, you've got a lot of mistaken impressions due to a very shallow understanding of third wave feminism that you haven't bothered to educate yourself any further about, which makes you make these patently false claims that have absolutely zero basis in fact.

The right to vote, the right to work, the right to own property, the right to make money, the right to live independently from men. Basically the rights enabling them to live the same way men traditionally have.

Again I ask, can you provide me with the rights men have which women do not?

Here's one major sticking point: The right of Bodily Autonomy. As far as I can remember, Senator Wendy Davis didn't have to filibuster for 11 hours for MEN'S reproductive rights.

If only they worried about real issues, maybe feminism would make a real change in the world.

But since you won't tell us what "petty" issues and "made up" issues ARE, or give examples of them, I'm just going to dismiss this comment completely. Thanks.