the marks of a slave

[eastern sun]

I am sinnocence's Owner and Master. While I agree whole heartedly with the overall message of your post about taking things slow with someone you met online, I can assure you that your experiences do not apply to Us.

I know nothing about your relationship. And I'm grateful that you did not take offense.

I simply would have felt remiss if I had not responded as I did.

I hope sinnocence continues to feel welcome on this thread. I have enjoyed her contributions and would not want to lose her unique perspective.

 

[eastern sun]

He said that slavery is about losing self-hood.

You shouldn't try to surrender your self before you've found it.

 

[myinnerslut]

im not sure if i agree with that completely. for some people, yes. maybe even for most people.

for me, i found myself by becoming a slave. being a slave has let me come into contact with parts of myself that were hidden before. i finally understood why i did what i did. i didnt know myself until after i had the collar around my neck.

as i said before, this is not for everybody, and please dont go and get collared thinking it will give you a map to your person, but for me being in his chains let me fly.

i know myself now. i didnt before. i wouldnt have without taking the plunge.

 

[sinnocence]

I know nothing about your relationship. And I'm grateful that you did not take offense.

I simply would have felt remiss if I had not responded as I did.

I hope sinnocence continues to feel welcome on this thread. I have enjoyed her contributions and would not want to lose her unique perspective.

I still feel welcome, don't worry. I was going to quote your response earlier and say thank you for your input, but I ran out of time. I really value what you have to say and like I said, I follow what is posted in here.

I didn't feel offended at all. I agree as well with your overall message, but I believe that He and I will feel the same *together* as we do now. I also believe that we are past that "hot and heavy" stage. We're going on two years together. That may not seem like a lot to some and I've had my fair share of people roll their eyes at me. But with our situation, it's meaningful to me. They don't know what He and our relationship are worth to me. Our time, even when apart, is precious. I have no doubt in my mind that we will be just as happy when we finally meet. This is not because I'm living a fantasy. There *are* days when I don't feel like submitting. There *are* days when I don't act like a slave. There are days when it's utterly painful. But I know we'll get through it. I guess I just have faith in it. I'm not setting my hopes too high nor am I preparing myself for disappointment. I'm just taking things as they come and awaiting the future.

Thank you again ES for your opinion.

 

[eastern sun]

I dreamt last night that I was in my old neighborhood. Outside the house where I grew up. One of you was there with me. A young woman with straight black hair. I was glad you were accompanying me on this visit to see my mother. For some reason, I was nervous about seeing her.

We passed Shankara standing naked on the corner by my house. He lifted his eyes from his penis and looked at us quizzically as we passed. I was really happy to see him, but too shy to say more than "hi."

As we passed into the courtyard of my old house, you ran ahead and began swinging on the railings of the steps to the garage, spinning round and landing with your feet on the bar. Those unnatural gymnastic feats that can only be found in dreams.

I was astonished, and exhilarated by your movement, but wanted to reign in your energy. I felt it was somehow too much for the situation. I was already nervous about how my mother would react.

As I knocked on the front door, I realized I didn't know your name. "Marie," you said, smoothing your skirt, as my attention turned to the sound of a man's voice behind the door.

And I woke up, startled, to remember that my mother is dead. We've already sold that house. How did I forget such a thing?

***************************

In case Shankara wonders how he found his way into my dream. . . .yesterday, I read his list on "25 random things" and was deeply moved by his desire to walk naked down main street with an erection, coupled with the statement that the picture thread felt like his last connection to his kink. (I love that thread.) With those statements he apparently found his way into my subconscious.

 

[Adakgirl]

He said that slavery is about losing self-hood.

You shouldn't try to surrender your self before you've found it.

I respectfully disagree with his view of what slavery is about. For many people surrendering themselves is the only way they find out who their true-self really is. Slavery has nothing at all to do with losing self-hood and all to do about realizing things about yourself that you would never have otherwise realized. Accepting those things are a part of you, dealing with them then living with them as yourself.
It's about the process of gaining a unique and intimate knowledge of yourself.
A slave has the ability to surrender themselves yet still retain some of the self-hood they had before their surrender as well as finding out who they really are after their surrender.

That is my opinion only and truthfully it does not hold any value here because I have never lived as a slave. However, I think that some Masters have very little perspective on or insight into what slavery is about, not because they don't look but because they simply can't see it from their position of Dominance.

 

[minx1]

He said that slavery is about losing self-hood.

You shouldn't try to surrender your self before you've found it.

I love your thread Eastern sun, although haven't felt able to comment until now. A bit out of my depth I guess. Although some of the things you have said in this thread have helped me immensely, so thankyou

What your Master said intruiged me. It made me think and thats a good thing. I could do with the practice! lol

I think this is a really facinating. Because I too can see and certainly understand what others have said about finding yourself through slavery. I think I thought that too.
But it's just occured to me that thats not what its about. Perhaps i am only just getting it *soft smile*, or maybe I am way off track. You decide.....

But i think I can understand what your Master means. At least this is how I interpret it. Its about losing self hood in that becoming a slave requires you to forgo any self interest or focus. Your raison d'etre becomes serving another. It stops being about you as an individual. Indeed who you are as an individual probably shifts a huge amount, as your priorities and perhaps values change. So yes, in that respect it is about losing self hood.

Seeing slavery as a means to finding yourself, detracts from what you are there to do; to serve.

On the second point. I actually agree. How do you who you are and how much you can give unless you have found yourself first. If you truly do not know yourself, how do you know if you are giving everything?

Lol, sorry.....just thinking aloud. Whether this is right or wrong, it makes sense to me. I wish I had thought about it and recognised this earlier.

 

[eastern sun]

I inadvertently stole his pillow last night.

He said "that was a significant fuck-up."

 

[eastern sun]

My perspective is that following an initial period in which all the pieces of my life fell into place and made sense and I felt like I'd finally found my true "self," I actually became his slave, and had to work diligently day in and day out to lessen the demands of the very "self' I had finally fallen in love with.

Looking back, my true "self" was always there, wreaking havoc. I just was so confused by conflicting desires and beliefs, I couldn't see it. Let alone embrace it. And maybe, my true "self" is this empty state of being that I occasionally experience (and that I believe we all share in common).

Look how many "selves" I have just in this short entry. It's easier for me to recognize that they're all constructions of my mind, portraits of my experiences and beliefs and hopes and fears, designed to "help" me get through this life of mine.

Thing is, when I chose to be a slave, having a "self" of any kind wasn't helping any more. It just clutters up the open space inside, heightens my fear, and gets in his way.

It has been tricky for me to realize that I don't stop existing without a "self" to hang onto. But we have always been happiest when the internal psychological structures and agenda-driven actions that I would call my everyday "self" are less solid and potentially obstructive.

And, you know, maybe this is the shape my slave-hood has taken because that's his position. Ultimately it's his definition that's relevant, not mine.

 

[eastern sun]

But i think I can understand what your Master means. At least this is how I interpret it. Its about losing self hood in that becoming a slave requires you to forgo any self interest or focus. Your raison d'etre becomes serving another. It stops being about you as an individual. Indeed who you are as an individual probably shifts a huge amount, as your priorities and perhaps values change. So yes, in that respect it is about losing self hood.

Seeing slavery as a means to finding yourself, detracts from what you are there to do; to serve.

On the second point. I actually agree. How do you who you are and how much you can give unless you have found yourself first. If you truly do not know yourself, how do you know if you are giving everything?

I think you got it, minx. (at least, in the way we understand it)

On the second point, I think he would also add that we do a lot of experimenting in our youth. Since slavery is binding, he believes you should not enter into it until you are absolutely certain 100% it is your deepest desire. And have explored a variety of lifestyle choices.

Otherwise, like marriage these days, you can enter it with the unspoken idea that if you really, really don't like it you can call it off. In our opinion, that shouldn't be an option.

It's a partnership with mutual responsibilities. But that doesn't mean the partners will always meet their responsibilities as they "should." And that's where the real challenges lie.

 

[Homburg]

*raises eyebrow*

I do not think that either viewpoint is mutually exclusive. It may seem so prima faciae, but look at it obliquely.

One view is that the slave experience loss of self-hood in becoming.

The other view is that slavery can be a way to find one's true self.

Perhaps it is a matter that those who find themselves were blinded by self. In the lessening of self-hood on the path of becoming a slave, they see past their own illusions to realise the truth within. Self is ego, and can be both false and overblown. Lessening it is like clearing an obstruction.

So it is possible to both lose one's self-hood, and find one's self on the same path.

 

[eastern sun]

*raises eyebrow*

I do not think that either viewpoint is mutually exclusive. It may seem so prima faciae, but look at it obliquely.

One view is that the slave experience loss of self-hood in becoming.

The other view is that slavery can be a way to find one's true self.

Perhaps it is a matter that those who find themselves were blinded by self. In the lessening of self-hood on the path of becoming a slave, they see past their own illusions to realise the truth within. Self is ego, and can be both false and overblown. Lessening it is like clearing an obstruction.

So it is possible to both lose one's self-hood, and find one's self on the same path.

. . . .

 

[Adakgirl]

So it is possible to both lose one's self-hood, and find one's self on the same path.

Ahhhh thank you for that insight Homberg, you cleared that up for me and I agree.

Its about losing self hood in that becoming a slave requires you to forgo any self interest or focus. Your raison d'etre becomes serving another. It stops being about you as an individual. Indeed who you are as an individual probably shifts a huge amount, as your priorities and perhaps values change.

yes minx....
As does becoming a mother

 

[minx1]

yes minx....
As does becoming a mother

Yes,its is something I can imagine Adakgirl, even though i have not been fortunate enough to have a child.

Motherhood and many things.

 

[sami22]

A Slave!!!

Who is not a slave in this world? Everyone is enslaved in a away or another. Some by his own well others can not do it other way.

The other day, our bank, were I work, was the focus of a sudden inspection visit from a supreme team. Thought everything was seemingly alright, the Bank Director was so horrified and kept sweating and talking to the team as if begging charity. He was the slave of the bank as he is enslaved by his horror and cowardliness. I really didn't care that much and was really loathing that kind of stupid aghast personality, but that doesn't mean I am a brave one, I am also enslaved in my own way.

 

[eastern sun]

Who is not a slave in this world? Everyone is enslaved in a away or another. Some by his own well others can not do it other way.

The other day, our bank, were I work, was the focus of a sudden inspection visit from a supreme team. Thought everything was seemingly alright, the Bank Director was so horrified and kept sweating and talking to the team as if begging charity. He was the slave of the bank as he is enslaved by his horror and cowardliness. I really didn't care that much and was really loathing that kind of stupid aghast personality, but that doesn't mean I am a brave one, I am also enslaved in my own way.

We are all subject to authority. And to the consequences of our actions. And, if you're a director, or manager, or even a parent, to the consequences of other people's actions.

Does that alone make us a slave?

We talk about being "slaves" of fashion, "slaves" to our jobs, etc. etc. meaning that we've given up a certain amount of freedom of choice. In those circumstances, though, we still have choice. Even if we've momentarily forgotten that we have freedom.

And then there's socio-economic "slavery," where we feel trapped by our lack of education, opportunity, by prejudice, hieirarchical societies, etc. etc. trapped in circumstances we never felt we had a choice in in the first place.

Maybe sexual slavery is fundamentally the same. Maybe it's true that fundamentally I still have the freedom to make choices, and I just feel trapped by the circumstances of my life. Maybe.

I imagine the Bank Director went home at the end of his trying day and escaped the circumstances of his "slavery" with a stiff drink, and maybe even a good paddling. I imagine he hated that day at work with a passion.

As a self-defined "slave," I have chosen to embrace the fact that there is no escape. There is no freedom to leave. There's no "end of the day." There's no retirement. No hope of a better job/relationship when I finally get up the courage to look for one.

I have chosen to embrace the feeling of being trapped, of feeling discomfort, of being dissatisfied, of bowing to a higher authority as full of capriciousness and insensitivity as he is full of intelligence and love. And I do it in order to be happy.

Funny, hunh.

Are we all really "slaves?" Binding ourselves to different bits of this world in order to seek happiness (or letting others bind us) and then struggling against the very ropes we have tied? Wishing we could fly?

What would happen if we were all unrestrained? What then?

 

[eastern sun]

To the BDSM Talk/Cafe Community

I have received a number of compliments. And I am exceedingly grateful. I have enjoyed writing at least as much as you have enjoyed reading.

I want to say, though, that I am repeatedly humbled when I browse through the threads on this forum, and witness the genuine friendship and generosity and warmth that people regularly offer each other on this board.

I don't hold a candle to your generosity. And love.

Thank you for allowing me to see that.

 

[Homburg]

I was prepared to make a reply to sami22's post, but I see that ES has already done so, and with more coherent statement than I would likely have produced.



As to your other post, this place is certainly something, eh?

 

[Biffalo_Buff]

Perhaps, and I do not speak as one who identifies as a slave as such, so my comments may not apply, but perhaps the differentiation is between self and Self. Little "self" is our immediate ego, shortsighted and "selfish," that thing that is driven by fear and insecurity and momentary desire. But higher Self is that which lies within us, that which we try to reach through "self"lessness, that part of us which is perfected and wise and connected to the divine.

Little self drives us, until we allow higher Self to manifest, within an understanding that to serve others is to serve all, to serve the Beloved is to serve ourselves and the divine. Little self serves little self, but higher Self serves Dharma, God, Love, or whatever you might name it.

Again may I say this is a phenomenal thread. I tune in regularly. As a monologue and journal, it is brilliant, and as a dialogue with others it is enlightening in the extreme.

 

[intothewoods]

yes minx....
As does becoming a mother

For a time, but I don't feel like that's a permanent state.

 

[eastern sun]

Perhaps, and I do not speak as one who identifies as a slave as such, so my comments may not apply, but perhaps the differentiation is between self and Self. Little "self" is our immediate ego, shortsighted and "selfish," that thing that is driven by fear and insecurity and momentary desire. But higher Self is that which lies within us, that which we try to reach through "self"lessness, that part of us which is perfected and wise and connected to the divine.

Little self drives us, until we allow higher Self to manifest, within an understanding that to serve others is to serve all, to serve the Beloved is to serve ourselves and the divine. Little self serves little self, but higher Self serves Dharma, God, Love, or whatever you might name it.

Again may I say this is a phenomenal thread. I tune in regularly. As a monologue and journal, it is brilliant, and as a dialogue with others it is enlightening in the extreme.

Of course your comments apply, Biffalo_Buff.

Writing as you do from a different end of the continuum, I find your posts to this forum fascinating. You describe a relationship to the Beloved that is both shamelessly passionate and as full of the same devotion and respect as you seem to expect to receive. And your description of the Goat in the Dear X thread is incredible, mythic in its proportions.

As someone who likes to view the absolute by standing in the midst of the trivial and the mundane, I thoroughly enjoy your perspective where the absolute penetrates deep into the smallest of details and fills them with glory and expansive power. How else could that little toy plane become a jumbo jet?

 

[Adakgirl]

Yes,its is something I can imagine Adakgirl, even though i have not been fortunate enough to have a child.

Motherhood and many things.

Yes and I imagined it too...for I have never be fortunate to have children either.

 

[eastern sun]

Last night he said, "I'm the super-ego. You're the free id. My discipline frees you from shame. You do not have to be afraid within the boundaries I set."

and an old hard limit fell

 

[Homburg]

"My discipline frees you from shame. You do not have to be afraid within the boundaries I set."

I've said words very similar to this.

 

[eastern sun]

"Sex is not about what you think you want. Sex is what I tell you to do."

I think an expression on my face gave my thoughts away.