Zero Tolerance is such a great thing.

Todd

Virgin
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Jan 1, 2001
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WHEN WILL WE STOP THIS ZERO TOLERANCE IDIOCY?


The young lady on the left is Lindsay Brown. You can see that she’s not too happy. So, why isn’t Lindsay happy? She’s getting ready to graduate from Estero High School in a few weeks. What’s more, she’ll be wearing a gold tassel on her graduation gown, a tassel which honor’s her position as a National Merit Scholar. After summer vacation Lindsay will start at Florida Gulf Coast University where she was awarded an academic scholarship.
Well, not really. Yes, she’s a National Merit Scholar. Yes, she has an academic scholarship. But she won’t be wearing that gold tassel. She won’t even be wearing the graduation gown. Lindsay, you see, is our latest victim of the hysterical and intellectually vapid zero tolerance crap that permeates our insipid government schools across the nation.

Last weekend Lindsay Brown moved some of her belongings to her new apartment. During the move a kitchen knife – not a steak knife, not a butcher knife – just a simple little kitchen knife fell out of a box and became wedged under the front passenger seat.


When Lindsay drove that car to school on Monday the knife was spotted by a security officer. Lindsay was arrested and taken to jail. Taken to jail because there was a kitchen knife in her car. The local Sheriff’s office considered the presence of this kitchen knife to constitute probable cause to believe that Lindsay intended to use this knife as a weapon to hurt someone.

Lindsay Brown spent nine hours in jail. NINE HOURS! Nine hours in the custody of the state because of a kitchen knife in the car! Now she won’t get to graduate with her friends. She won’t go to the Senior class breakfast. She won’t get to go to the yearbook party. Yeah, she’ll get her diploma – and a record -- a record for bringing a “dangerous weapon” onto school property.

This is nothing less than mindless hysteria. The leftist mania over guns has brought us to the point where common sense is virtually lacking in the operation of our government schools.

A kitchen knife is a weapon? Consider this. If you had to retrieve a weapon from your car, which would you chose? A kitchen knife or the jack handle? How about the tire iron? Every single car in that parking lot at Estero High School has a tire iron. They have transmission dip sticks that could be used as swords. They have spark plug wires that could be used as garrotes. The car itself could be used to mow down a fellow student.

Mindless, abject stupidity!

Aren’t we supposed to be trying to teach our kids how to think rationally? Is there anything rational about this zero-tolerance nonsense?

Lindsay is just one in a long list of victims of these idiotic zero-tolerance policies.

There was that Eagle Scout in Florida. Remember him? He had a Scout meeting one night at which he taught young Boy Scouts the proper handling of a hatchet. The hatchet was in the trunk of his car, along with the rest of his Scouting gear, when he went to school the next day. Suspended. Kicked out.

How about that girl in Atlanta who was kicked out of a government school because she had a Tweetie Bird key chain? The school principal said the chain could be a weapon.

Then there was that boy who took a knife away from a young girl who said she was going to use it to kill herself. He locked the knife in his locker. He got kicked out of school for four months. Two days later that girl did try to kill herself, but failed. Maybe if she had tried with that knife the kid took from her she would have succeeded. Maybe he saved a life! Doesn’t matter, kick him out of school.

This left-wing generated mindless politically correct hysteria over weapons in our schools MUST STOP!

The first line of defense? Getting your kid out of government school and into a private school where administrators actually think before they act.

By the way, Estero High School’s website will accept your comments. Here’s the link. Be an adult … http://www.lee.k12.fl.us/schools/est/
 
The only thing Zero tolerance does is takes away a faculties ability to use thier brain and look at things on a case by case basis.

Glad you support zero tolerance, and I defend your right to do so.
 
Yeah,
I do not like the zero tolerance thread.
Its, like, not political, but criminal, or societal, correctness.
Can anyone help me out with the right phrase?
 
NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED

This is how insane our government schools' "zero tolerance" policies have become.

Flash back to October 1999. Ben Ratner was an eighth-grader at Blue Ridge Middle School in Loudoun County, Virginia. He received a note in class from a friend. The note said she was contemplating suicide and had brought a knife to school in her binder. Ratner knew she had been hospitalized for mental problems. He asked her for the knife. She refused to give it to him. So Ratner took the binder from her and put it in his locker. He intended to take the knife home to his mother, a nurse, so she could determine an appropriate course of action.

School officials found out about the knife. They asked Ratner if he had it. He said he did and gave it to Fanny Kellogg, a dean at the school. School officials suspended Ratner for 10 days for possession of a weapon--despite Kellogg's stated belief that he was no threat to anyone, and that she understood why he took the knife from his suicidal friend.

The Sunday following the incident at school, Ratner's friend slit her wrists. Her suicide attempt was unsuccessful.

The 10-day suspension became "indefinite," pending review by the school board. Ratner was out of school for nearly four months. Officials for Loudoun County Public Schools acknowledged that Ratner's actions were "noble" and "admirable"--but upheld his suspension anyway. So Ratner and his mother filed a lawsuit against the school district for violating his civil rights. The case was dismissed by a lower court. They made their appeal to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals last week.

These "zero-tolerance" policies put in place after the Columbine massacre are only making victims out of honest students--students who wouldn't dream of hurting anyone at school. All "zero tolerance" does is relieve school administrators of the burden of considering infractions on a case-by-case basis. It takes the thought process out of dealing with school violence.

Are you willing to send your child to a school where administrators can't be bothered to think for themselves?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22890
 
What you just said made me realize that with zero tolerance, you start from the premis that everyone is a liar and everyone is a potential threat.
On that alone, I would vote no. It seems more to the Napoleanic code, guilty until proven innocent, which being an American, I just have no taste for.
 
lavender said:
That's such bullshit! It sends a message that there will be no tolerance. That kids should be very careful. That their excuses won't get them out of things.
They could make up some kind of story to try and get out of it.

Zero Tolerance works.

Yes everyone is a liar and guilty. what a beautiful working system.
 
Re: Toddie Pooh

lavender said:
Here is your assignment for the day. Go research how much the Zero Tolerance policy has helped. In order to really assess a governmental program you have to do a Cost-Benefit Analysis. Go see how many things it has prevented. Go look for some beneficial stories. Then you will regain your privilege to post about this. :)

This is not about how many have been helped or how much crime in our schools has been averted. It's about common sense and policies taken to the extreme point of utter nonsense.

My neighbors daughter (16) was "busted" two weeks ago at school for the posession of a single asprin in an unopened child tamper proof clear plastic package. The girl has a heart condition ( atril fib. ) that requires asprin therapy each day. All year long she had followed the rules and had her parents deliver the medication in 30 day supplies,to the school nurse, who would then dispense the med. each day at lunch break. And she was still following the 'rules' to the best of her ability that day as she was delivering the drug to the nurses office while her parents were out've town at a funeral. Her meds had run out with the nurse two days before, her parents were out've town, so she tried to do the right thing that Friday morning. And got a three week suspension for her efforts.

Okay, you can say that she should have taken her medication in the morning with breakfast and not troubled the school with her problem. Her breakfast ( and dinner )is is already taken up with another medication to help regulate her heart beat, and for whatever reason her cardiologist wants some seperation between meds. So that leaves lunch.

The school was fully aware of this situation with the meds timing.

She's still out've school for three weeks. AND the only reason that she wasn't expelled for the year was that the principal wanted her to take state mandated testing next week.
 
Re: Re: Toddie Pooh

CW said:
This is not about how many have been helped or how much crime in our schools has been averted. It's about common sense and policies taken to the extreme point of utter nonsense.

My neighbors daughter (16) was "busted" two weeks ago at school for the posession of a single asprin in an unopened child tamper proof clear plastic package. The girl has a heart condition ( atril fib. ) that requires asprin therapy each day. All year long she had followed the rules and had her parents deliver the medication in 30 day supplies,to the school nurse, who would then dispense the med. each day at lunch break. And she was still following the 'rules' to the best of her ability that day as she was delivering the drug to the nurses office while her parents were out've town at a funeral. Her meds had run out with the nurse two days before, her parents were out've town, so she tried to do the right thing that Friday morning. And got a three week suspension for her efforts.

Okay, you can say that she should have taken her medication in the morning with breakfast and not troubled the school with her problem. Her breakfast ( and dinner )is is already taken up with another medication to help regulate her heart beat, and for whatever reason her cardiologist wants some seperation between meds. So that leaves lunch.

The school was fully aware of this situation with the meds timing.

She's still out've school for three weeks. AND the only reason that she wasn't expelled for the year was that the principal wanted her to take state mandated testing next week.

Thank you CW
 
Todd said:
The only thing Zero tolerance does is takes away a faculties ability to use thier brain and look at things on a case by case basis.

Surely 'zero tolerance' can be applied on a case by case basis Todd? You seem to be displaying 'zero tolerance' toward 'zero tolerance': spot the "catch 22" in your rationale? ;)

Why are you so intent on giving this expression such a narrow definition? The examples you give are evidence of 'zero tolerance' being applied in a politically (or 'socially' - call it what you will) correct way. I refer you and anyone who agrees with you to threads about guns. It's not the 'gun' which is to blame, but 'people'; in this case read 'zero tolerance' for 'gun'.
 
lavender said:
So Todd,

If I start sending you some leftist liberal sites will you check those out and read them critically? I think not.

Why do we continue to have to give Todd more fuel to add to his silly little fire?


You fail to remeber I was a Democratic Athiest for far more years than I am what I am now.
 
lavender said:
That's such bullshit! It sends a message that there will be no tolerance. That kids should be very careful. That their excuses won't get them out of things.

I agree this butter knife scenario is unfortunate. However, what if someone were to have a gun under the seat of their car and they knew this case by case approach was established. They could make up some kind of story to try and get out of it.

Zero Tolerance works. [/B]

Zero Tolerance works???????

for the brain dead maybe.

Your example of a gun compared to a butter knife is unreal. Talk about apples to oranges.

Common sense is all it takes to make this policy effective. The intentions and prevention of zero tolerance are good,,, the execution is pitiful at times.
 
This is not the America I grew up in

lavender said:

I agree this butter knife scenario is unfortunate. However, what if someone were to have a gun under the seat of their car and they knew this case by case approach was established. They could make up some kind of story to try and get out of it.

Zero Tolerance works.

To sum up your position, I believe you are saying "It's unfortunate that the innocent must suffer so that we can be sure that we catch all of the guilty, but that's the price we have to pay to be safe."

I'm not comfortable with that. Zero tolerance policies aren't even "guilty until proven innocent." They are "Guilty always just because." Justice in this country is based on the presumption of innocence until there is proof of guilt. Zero tolerance not only presumes guilt, but it also prohibits any proof of innocence.

Zero tolerance may work occasionally, but this case and many others demonstrate that there are many instances where it doesn't work. Those instances where it doesn't work are IMHO much worse than the risks present when administrators and teachers are allowed to exercise reasonable judgement and discretion.
 
Jeez,
just think if we all practiced zero tolerance in accordance with our beliefs. We would all be out in the mud fighting with sticks!
 
CW said:
Your example of a gun compared to a butter knife is unreal. Talk about apples to oranges.

Common sense is all it takes to make this policy effective. The intentions and prevention of zero tolerance are good,,, the execution is pitiful at times.

Yes indeed; but 'common sense' has spoken in many other threads (see my previous post here) that comparisons with knives and guns can in fact be made when dealing with weapons. Why do people persist in giving specific examples to generalise for everything, or generalise [Hi Todd! ;)] to make a specific point?
 
Ally C said:
Why do people persist in giving specific examples to generalise for everything, or generalise [Hi Todd! ;)] to make a specific point?

Andra_Jenny said:
Jeez,
just think if we all practiced zero tolerance in accordance with our beliefs. We would all be out in the mud fighting with sticks!

Why?
 
Ally C said:
Surely 'zero tolerance' can be applied on a case by case basis Todd? You seem to be displaying 'zero tolerance' toward 'zero tolerance': spot the "catch 22" in your rationale? ;)
Zero tolerance wouldn't be zero tolerance if it were applied on a case by case basis. It would be tolerant of those cases where it wasn't applied.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that anybody who brings a weapon to school with the intent to use it to harm others should be let off the hook. However, establishing intent is a difficult thing. It requires reasonable people to look at the situation and make a judgement call. Apparently, this is something that school principles and administrators are incapable of.

To avoid the necessity of exercising reasonable judgement and discretion, "zero tolerance" policies are implemented. This case and many others like it are the results of eliminting reasonable discretion and going with "zero tolerance" in its place.
 
Because the first time we disagree and we have zero tolerance for each other view? What if I decide to put up the west wall of my hut for practical reasons, but your religion (just to pick an example, not personal), god says they east wall must go up first. There you have it, we cannot even build a hut.

Es Regnet!
 
Originally posted by Ally C
Surely 'zero tolerance' can be applied on a case by case basis Todd? You seem to be displaying 'zero tolerance' toward 'zero tolerance': spot the "catch 22" in your rationale? ;)

"Zero Tolerance" by definition removes any case by case consideration. It is implemented where the judgemnt of administrators is supect.


Why are you so intent on giving this expression such a narrow definition? The examples you give are evidence of 'zero tolerance' being applied in a politically (or 'socially' - call it what you will) correct way. I refer you and anyone who agrees with you to threads about guns. It's not the 'gun' which is to blame, but 'people'; in this case read 'zero tolerance' for 'gun'.

There are cases where Zero Tolerance is an appropriate policy and applied logically. "Zero Tolerance" however, has become the catch phrase identifying all sorts of stupid applications of the principle of not allowing any second chances for violations of policy. The nomenclature is being misused to justify stupid decisions based on liberal interpretation of broad definitions, discrediting and bringing ridicule down on the whole concept of zero tolerance.

I think Todd and others are quite properly exposing the silliness of such misapplications of what is billed as a panacea for all our schools' problems. "Zero Tolerance" has come to mean "unthinking adherence to stupid standards" in the minds of many people because of cases like those cited. We certainly need better controls on weapons and drugs in our schools, but not "Zero Tolerance" as it is being applied.


[Edited by Weird Harold on 05-23-2001 at 07:18 AM]
 
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