Your views on becoming a good writer.

[Carl East]

Does anyone here believe that writing is a built in gift, or are you of the view that anyone can become a writer? Personally speaking, I believe that writing a good story takes more than just knowing punctuation, grammar and syntax.

I've always believed that an imagination is a necessity, even more than being able to tell a verb from a noun.

Would it be fair to say that some people rely on their ability to string intelligent words/phases/paragraphs together without really worrying too much about content?

What are your views?

Carl

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Does anyone here believe that writing is a built in gift, or are you of the view that anyone can become a writer? Personally speaking, I believe that writing a good story takes more than just knowing punctuation, grammar and syntax.

I've always believed that an imagination is a necessity, even more than being able to tell a verb from a noun.

Would it be fair to say that some people rely on their ability to string intelligent words/phases/paragraphs together without really worrying too much about content?

What are your views?

Carl

Only crazy people can write good fiction. To have the sort of imagination that can come up with something completely off the cuff, to comprehend how people in unthinkable situations would react, to empathisize and give life to nonexistant people and worlds you have to be completely off your rocker.

Look at the large percentage of eccentric personalities on Lit and I bet you'd agree with me.

And you're right when you say imagination is the truly key thing, the thing mastery of style can't teach.

 

[impressive]

Imagination is key, but it *must* be coupled with technical skill (or a damned good editor). I loved Colly's point in an earlier thread about the difference between a good writer and a good storyteller. The combination of the two is what knocks a reader's socks off.

 

[Liar]

Does anyone here believe that writing is a built in gift, or are you of the view that anyone can become a writer? Personally speaking, I believe that writing a good story takes more than just knowing punctuation, grammar and syntax.

I've always believed that an imagination is a necessity, even more than being able to tell a verb from a noun.

I agree with you - to a certain degree. But your imagination and talent have a hell of a lot easier to get through if you have solid training in the grammar and punctuation department, and a big vocabulaty to match it.

Here's how I see it: There are four levels of being a good writer. The first and simplest to grasp is the technical skill. Spelling, grammar and vocabulary. This can be taught in schools.

The second is the aestetic skill. To write in a readable style and to adapt it to the reader and to the story. A sense for what kind of language, tempo, style and phrases that are appropriate. This can also be taught, and trained, the same way that a photographer or an art director can learn and develop skills through observation and practice.

The third level (where I confess to fail misearbly) is the gosh darn dicipline. To actually get the writing done. To write takes dedication, dicipline and hard work. To get the dicipline for it is a question of habit, and can also be taught.

The fouth level is what we call talent. To be able to come up with the crazy and wonderful ideas that makes a good story. This is probably mainly natural. But the abiliy to tap into one's imagination, and fish out good ideas can actually be taught ant trained. Classic rhetorics from Aristoteles to Quintilianus did this, methods to fuel the creative process, thought models to find new angles and viewpoints, to lure the next killer idea to the surface.

So yes, being a good writer can be taught. Far, far more people walk aroung with funky dreams in their head than there are people that have the ability to express them. The expression part is educatable. But it's not an analog education, where you read a few books about it, have an exam and become a complete author. It's like becoming a good alpine skiier or a good guitarist. Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, sweat a little and sweat a lot.

well, that's my 2c.

#L

 

[carsonshepherd]

Liar, that was very true and insightful. Now get your ass off the Lit message boards and start writing...

 

[CrazyyAngel]

Its a mix of many things ... like Liar said. Without talent the best writing skills are nothing. But you can have the best imagination and talent on earth, if you don't have the necessary basic skills, you can't become a good writer ...

CA

 

[Liar]

Liar, that was very true and insightful. Now get your ass off the Lit message boards and start writing...

NaNowrimo starts at midnight. I'll write my ass off.

 

[rgraham666]

Liar summed it up quite nicely.

One of the biggest problems in any field, is that people too often mistake technique for skill.

You may be able to string together the most perfect sentences and paragraphs, but still be the most boring writer. cf. "It was a dark and stormy night."

So I would say imagination is the base of all creative endeavours.

Second, you need the discipline and drive to actually do something about it.

Finally, the ability to frame your vision using the techniques of your art so that what you have to say becomes visible to those outside of your profession.

One of my biggest complaints about art is how often the 'artists' only speak to one another. For them, creating is a masturbatory ritual of self affirmation, not a way of bringing some small amount of joy or wisdom to the world at large.

 

[curious2c]

heh...all I know is that I write...edit...write...edit...write...edit...edit...edit...and still...


I think it is part skill and mostly imagination. I hope that someday my imagination kicks in and I write some real great stuff.

 

[Guest]

Yep, Liar said it all very well.

Anyone can write. Most people can write reasonably well, with a bit of learning and practice and a whole lot of imagination.

To become successful as a published, full time writer takes something very special indeed: dogged determination.

Lou

 

[KarenAM]

In my experience one can be taught to be a good writer, since this is a technical skill. It takes time and effort, but it can be done.

What cannot be taught is creativity. This is a feature of personality that may well be genetic, and which exists on a spectrum. It is frighteningly similar to schizophrenia, especially among the very creative, in that it seems to be an entirely different way of looking at the universe. Fortunately it is less crippling than schizophrenia.

Most people here are creative; such folks tend to be self-selecting. Uncreative people generally don't want to create, which is fine.

The really amazing authors are those who are both techinically polished and creatively brilliant, as Colly said.

 

[carsonshepherd]

NaNowrimo starts at midnight. I'll write my ass off.

Like I should talk.

 

[bg23]

*shrug* It's luck.

 

[Liar]

What cannot be taught is creativity.

True. But you can train on using it. And you can be taught techniques to explore it with.

I'm currently studying rhetorics and a rethoric thinking process from a creativity viewpoint. We had a bunch of people in our group that at the start of the term had a hard time finding the ideas, the angles and the arguments they needed. But after a while with the right inspiration and creation tools, they too seemed to develop a volcano of ideas and creativity, seemingly out of thin air. But the truth is, thay just needed a little more help with digging into their subconscious to find the stuff. I use those tolls now too, and although I thought of myself as quite creative before, I feel that I have alot easier to find ephiphanies these days. It's been a real eye-opener, one that I recommend everyone to take a stab at.

It seems to me that people are far more creative than we generally give them credit for, and that those that we look up to as having the most imagination simply have the right skills to shape their dreams into something that the rest of us can understand.

#L

 

[Weird Harold]

In my experience one can be taught to be a good writer, since this is a technical skill. It takes time and effort, but it can be done.

What cannot be taught is creativity. This is a feature of personality that may well be genetic, and which exists on a spectrum. ...

I think everyone is saying pretty much the same thing -- there is writing well and telling a good story and they aren't always the same thing.

The one point that isn't being made -- or at best not being made well -- is that we're talking about writing fiction here.

What makes a good "Technical Writer" is much different than what makes a good "Fiction Writer." There is some overlap in necessary skills and abilities, but there is also much that is not only different but exclusive -- Someone who a good "Technical Writer" is seldom also a good "Fiction Writer."

I'm a fair "Essayist" or "Technical Writer" but I'm only a mediocre "Novelist" or "Fiction Writer."

"Creativity" -- for lack of a better term -- is IMHO something that is on the "Nature" side of this issue; Some people can just make up and tell a story naturally and others can't.

Those who reach adult-hood without the ability -- either because they never had it or it was suppressed in child-hood -- will never be able to write without a great deal of effort and editing to apply learned techniques. Many of them will never be able to write fiction at all -- they may learn to retell or adapt "true" stories, but it's not really "fiction."

Those who have any trace of "The Spark" can be nurtured and trained to make the most of it, but without the natural ability they'll never be "fiction writers" or "storytellers."

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Anyone can write. A large part of the reason writers don't get the kind of awed adulation of say a painter or singer is because most everyone does write and it is such a mundane skill everyone thinks they can write.

Writing, the actual skill can be learned. Technique can be studied and perfected. With a decent volume of material you can even develop your own style or voice. And it can still be rubbish.

there are dual skills involved in becoming a good writer. The first, but not most important is learning to write well. The second is the ability to tell the story, draw a reader into your world, and make them see, and care for your characters.

A perfect writer, who lacks the ability to tell an engrossing story will never be more than a mimic. Parroting ideas, styles, plots and other elements of one or more great writers.

An excellent story teller, who doesn't bother with mastering technique, and the skills of the author will forever be frustrated, because the story in his/her head will never translate to paper in a way that comes close to how they see it.

A great writer of ficton is someone who has mastered the use of words to convey the story in his head and has the head to dream up stories people love.

-Colly

 

[Carl East]

I must say, there was some interesting responses there. I truly believe I have the ability to come up with a good story, but I don't believe I'm quite up to scratch to write one just yet.

I have the imagination, in fact I'm inundated with idea's all the time. I can even give you an example of that now.

Yesterday, I was working a night shift and I had the urge to think up a sci-fi. Something I've only tentatively tried in the past. Anyway, I immediately got an idea for a story, and as far as I know it's a very original plot. It goes something like this:

A space craft from earth which is on the way back home is investigating a large asteroid that's just passed mars and is heading out into deep space. They discover that this asteroid is littered quite literally with precious stones such as diamonds, and other lesser stones. They know they shouldn't (because they only have a certain amount of fuel on board) but they land on this giant rock to take samples.

Now this is where the originality comes in, for whatever reason the hero of this story gets left behind. I could think of a dozen ways to achieve this particular goal, but I won't. So here they are using up the last of the fuel to get back home, and not being able to turn around and rescue their comrade. If they did of course they'd all fail to return. For added drama, I'd make one of the crew his wife.

So the opening part of the story is set, now comes the main plot. Our hero is almost certainly going to die from lack of oxygen when he is rescued by an alien craft. Who just happen to go around harvesting these large Asteriods for the very same reasons our heros were investigating it.

The rest of the story takes place on board this ship, with our hero eventually making friends with these beings. And for a dramatic ending they decide to take him back to earth, and actually beat his own space craft back. So he's back home waiting for them when they return.

I could see this tale making a very good movie, but the point to all this was that I thought up this idea in the blink of an eye.

What do you think?

Carl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Depends on what we mean by "good", I should think.
I have a lot of writer-friends, some published and some not--the best selling one relates to me on occasion that writing is a mechanical process. Its formulaic and really just a matter of tempo and plot.

I also have some that tell me that it comes from "inside" and demands "imagination" and all that. But, admittedly, they aren't selling quite as well as the first.

Then there's the guy I know whose a poet who sells reasonably well who says that he has no idea what makes something good and that he just writes things.

...so, I have, really, no measure by which to rule things.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don’t want to be difficult, but the way we bandy about the word “creativity” kind of bothers me. It’s so nebulous that just saying you need to be creative doesn’t really help anyone write better. Just what are we talking about?

If by “creativity” we mean the ability to create something, then of course you have to be creative to write. But if we mean the ability to come up with novel ideas and situations, then I think it’s a bit overrated. If creativity were the most important thing, then science fiction and fantasy would probably be the most satsifying literature since they tend to be the most creative in terms of novelty.

Personally, I would replace the word “creativity” by others: curiosity, imagination, and perception.

I think all writers are curious. The most basic reason we listen to stories is because we want to know what happens next, but I think it goes beyond that too. A writer has to want to know what it feels like to be someone else in some weird stuation. We’ve all read bad stories here that are bad because they show no curiosity into what the other characters are like. They tend to be one person fantasies in which the other characters are just a bunch of fuck-dummies. They show a failure of curiosity.

You need a special kind of imagination to write, the kind you develop through day dreaming. You need to be able to envision entire scenes and personalities, and you have to be able to walk your characters through different situations and see which ones are the most emotionally satisfying. Your scenes and characters have to be rich in detail and have depth. You have to know things like what the weather is outside and what your character was doing a week or a year before your story starts. If you omit this kind of imaginative detail, your story comes across as flat and superficial.

A good writer is perceptive. He sees and notices things that other people don’t: the meaning of a gesture, the details that make a scene come to life; the so-called telling details that set mood and tone. One of the great joiys of reading is coming across these little gems of perception, being shown something we never noticed ourselves. Perception is what makes your dialogue sound like real human speech and makes your characters act like real people and not cardboard cut-outs. Anyone can describe a kiss. Perception lets you tell the reader what it means as well. Perception is what gives depth to a story.

The other thing I would add is that you have to be a great reader to be a great writer. Writing is unique in that, unlike visual art or music, it requires the active particpation of the audience. An author has to train himself to go back and read his stuff with a fresh mind, pretending he doesn’t know what he meant when he wrote it, and that’s not easy to do. If you’re halfway serious about it, writing is at least 50% editing and revision, and those depend on being able to read your stuff and analyze what works and what doesn’t.

Which brings me to my last point: I also believe that you have to constantly read great fiction. You’ve got to immerse yourself in the best stuff you can find and learn from it, if for no other reason than to see how the masters have handled the kind of nuts and bolts problems we all run into when we write. The one thing that all great writers seem to have in common is that they’re all voracious readers.

So that’s what I think. Yes we all have to be creative in order to create something. That’s a tautology. But a good writer should also have the gift of insatiable curiosity, a sustainable imagination, and a very perceptive eye. And then he should keep himself immersed in the best fiction he can find, just as any other professional keeps himself up to date with the latest developments in his field.

---dr.M.

 

[McKenna]

I don't care how good your imagination and ideas are, if you can't articulate those ideas well, they'll be lost in a sea of misspellings and incorrect grammar.

That said, I definitely think it takes more than technical knowledge to write well (i.e. punctuation and grammar,) and that's where the good ideas and a fertile imagination come into play.

I think the best writers are blessed with natural talent which they've cultivated into something golden. Those with little talent but a lot of technical ability often sound too stiff and "forced" to me; they miss that elusive quality found in those with natural ability.

 

[cantdog]

ideas

Who knows where they come from?

Recognizing a good one is like realizing when you played a great riff, you get a facility after a while for knowing that you have hold of a good one.

I recommend On Writing by Stephen King, who is prolific, you have to give him that, and who also has a knack for writing what sells.

The book is practical and inspirational, even if not very coherent in some ways. Really, stick it out. Read that thing and absorb what it has to teach you. His toolbox analogy is topnotch.

 

[Sabledrake]

I agree that skill and creativity are the two most vital components for writing a good story. Skills can be taught (or salvaged by a good editor), but creativity is a lot harder to develop.

I've known plenty of writers over the years who have one and not the other; people with good clever creative ideas and characters who write very, very badly ... and people who've mastered all the skills and write technically correct stories but just lack something special to make them interesting.

Sabledrake