Your Degree?

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Posts
15,135
Summary: The Nine Degrees Of Submission, by Vera
What degree are you?

Diane Vera, in 1984, proposed nine degrees of submission in an s/m classic, easily available in full, on the net. What follows is a full summary of most points[4,6,7,8], with some abridging and deletions [for 1,3,5,9]; it’s been mostly re-worded in paraphrase and has no direct quotes except in the label for the each degree. Please visit a site when the full original document is reproduced with permission, or better yet, buy the book referenced in full, below.

Notes by ‘Pure’: This is not a ranking, with the higher degrees being better, as in karate belts. It is descriptive; no one ‘belongs’ to any other degree than he or she chooses or consents to. Further, it’s been noted by several, that Vera’s use of ‘slave’ is in a broad sense, not common, these days. This ‘slave’ is a would-be or play or real sub, not actually a full slave, except at the 8th degree.

1. “The outright non-submissive masochist or kinky sensualist”
There is no real servitude. The masochist has things his/her own way according to his/her own rules, the goal being his/her own pleasure.[…]

2. “Pseudo-submissive non-slave” There’s no slave but ‘sub’ roleplaying, like prisoner and cop, so called ‘forced’ dress up. There’s no play at slave, for the ‘sub’ is main director of the scene, often one of humiliation.

3. “Pseudo-submissive PLAY slave”
[…]

4. “True submissive non-slave”
There is actual, but temporary giving up of control, but limits are agreed. The sub is aroused by suspense and vulnerability, not actual service. There’s no detailed control of a scene, but the goal is primarily the sub’s pleasure are such, not in bringing pleasure to the Master/Mistress[M].

5. “True submissive PLAY slave”
There is actual giving up of control in limited scenes. [deleted]

6. “Uncommitted short-term but more-than-play semi-slave”
There is real surrender of control and desire for service. Actual services are rendered, both erotic and non-erotic, but only when the ‘slave’ feels inclined to do so. The ‘slave’ may be full time, but for a limited period, and can leave service at any time. The slave is possibly in an extended relationship with M, but has retained final control over the period and time of service.

7. “Part-time consensual but REAL slave”
The slave is the master’s property, thinks of him/herself that way all the time, and is so committed. Desires to please in the erotic and fun, but also other practical ways. Still has other commitments but cedes the master/mistress control of most free time.

8. “Full-time live-in consensual slave”
Only a small number of broad limits; the slave is only for the M’s benefit and gratification. The slave does expect to be prized, though as a possession. This is similar to the situation of a housewife, but first, it’s usually, in the s/m world, a male; arrangement is worked out in more detail and completely consensual. Second, since so much is given up, the slave usually has reflected and has more awareness of possible problems than someone going into a marriage.

9. “Consensual total slave with no limits”
[…] This is some s/m purists’ dream in which the slave will do anything, with no limits; that being said to be the only ‘true’ slavery. The few claims of such slavery in real life may reasonably be questioned.
=========================================================
The above is a partial summary of an original document, © 1984, 1988 by Mistress Diane Vera which is reprinted in
Pat Califia, ed. _The Lesbian S/M Safety Manual_ (Boston: Lace / Alyson) pp. 69-71. Buy it; it’s a classic with much to say, twenty years later.
 
I've been 5, 6, 7, and 8 - not simultaneously, of course.

At the moment, with Wolf, i'd say i'm sort of in 6ish territory. Sadly, almost everything depends on what happens between him and his life partner, the choices they make, and her ability to not only accept but to embrace a poly situation while they're on vacation.

I hate it. I hate this feeling like i'm sitting in a rocking chair, gently, slowly rocking, and waiting...waiting...waiting...for other people to decide my fate, my pleasure, my pain (and not the good kind). I wish i could *do* something to speed the process. I wish i got to make this choice. I wish i wasn't in this situation. I wish...

I wish things would make more sense for me, on many levels.

There's the Wolf thing.

And then there's the big "flying fuck" deal in the GB.

And then, oh gods, and then there's the fact that there was email from MS in my inbox today, the very first such a contact since last December when it all fell apart so horribly. Those of you who've been around for longer then seven months know what incredible confusion and shock and hurt such contact from him must be to me.

So nothing makes sense to me right now. Everything is kinda surreal, and not in a good way, and i feel completely overwhelmed.

I'm so sorry, Pure.
You topic deserves more then i've thrown into it here.

Forgive me.

Please, all, respond to Pure's topic and not my ramblings.

And while your at it, deputize yourselves to act responsibly and for the good of all here, too.

I'm sorry, Pure.
 
When I'm sub, I'd put myself at a 6. I desire and enact the service aspects, but do not--will not--commit to being sub full-time, much less "slave."

Besides, I just got a brand new riding crop, which he *loves.*
Gods bless Tack shops in ranch land. :)
 
My degree is in accounting. None of your numbers here seem to fit me. But thanks for posting. I have someone I'd like to pass this along to.
 
i think i'm kind of a 3 kind of a 5. and im pursuing a degree in history!:D
 
I know a 4, a 7, and an 8.

And I already have my history degree, so there. :p
 
at this point i'm a 0, but normally 4 or 7 but i have been 8/9 in the past
 
Right now i'm in the 7th degree. At times i cross into 9th degree territory, which is a place my Dom doesn't like me to go.
 
anywhere from 2 - 5 I don't think I will ever go above 5 as I certainly can't see our current relationship encompassing either of us as a 6 or above.

I wonder is there an equivilant scale for dom/mes?? or could some bright spark on here come up with one? it seems that alot of these 'scales' and tests are aimed at the sub - as a switch I'd be interested in the other side of the equation too.


(oh and btw my 'degree' is going to be environmental architecture when I finish the dammed thing!!!)
 
I fall between a 6 and a 7 mainly ... but neither describe me that well.

Course - that might just be me reading it all wrong! *sigh*

(I know this is out of context slightly ... but I love the bit about a housewife being a live-in full-time consensual slave .... they got that bit right - especially when there are teens in the household!)
 
Between a 5 and a 6. lilredwolf? No limits? What if your Dom asked you to kill for him? What if he asked you to do or allow him to do something that would permanently harm you? Say...amputate a limb? Would you have limits then?
 
He would never ask these type of things from me, I had no reason to have limits with him, he has his own limits and morals, plus I am raising his one and only child he would never ask me to do anything that would take me away from her in any form. YES no limits, everything depends on the relationship, we are not at that same level now nor have we been for some time, but we have been at a level where he held my life in his hands in everyway. Him and I lived 24/7 for many years and for a good part for that time I had no limits, only trust.
 
Cirrus said:
lilredwolf? No limits? What if your Dom asked you to kill for him? What if he asked you to do or allow him to do something that would permanently harm you? Say...amputate a limb? Would you have limits then?

Okay, I had to come back to this.

I have to ask why when somebody says I have/had "No Limits" do people assume that a Dom/me will loose their mind and start asking things like, will you kill for me? will you die for me? will you rob a bank for me? A sub having limits is not the only thing that keeps a Dom/me sane.

Cirrus under any stituation would your Dom ask you to kill for him? I will assume the answer is no, is that because it is not something he would ask or because you have limits?

Just because a sub drops their need to have limits doesn't mean a Dom/me will drop their need to be sane. SS&C are still in affect just because somebody says "no limits" doesn't mean all bets are off and anything goes.

Sorry for going on about this but it really bothers me when anyone just assumes my Dom would ask me something so screwed up just because I have no limits set, he is a highly sadistic Dom but he is not a psycho.
 
I would say I am somewhere between 6 and 7. I aspire to be 8 with my top but that is not possible right now because that is not my primary relationship. I am probably only about a 2 in my primary relationship, although I don't usually run the scene.
 
originally posted by lilredwolph
Okay, I had to come back to this.

I have to ask why when somebody says I have/had "No Limits" do people assume that a Dom/me will loose their mind and start asking things like, will you kill for me? will you die for me? will you rob a bank for me? A sub having limits is not the only thing that keeps a Dom/me sane.

Cirrus under any stituation would your Dom ask you to kill for him? I will assume the answer is no, is that because it is not something he would ask or because you have limits?

Just because a sub drops their need to have limits doesn't mean a Dom/me will drop their need to be sane. SS&C are still in affect just because somebody says "no limits" doesn't mean all bets are off and anything goes.

Sorry for going on about this but it really bothers me when anyone just assumes my Dom would ask me something so screwed up just because I have no limits set, he is a highly sadistic Dom but he is not a psycho.

I kind of see "no limits" as referring to between the top and the bottom, NOBODY else. If you're talking about killing and crimes like that, other people are involved. That's where the line should be drawn. As for "would you die for me" - my answer would probably be along the lines of "only to save you." I wouldn't harm myself, but if necessary I would put myself in harm's way to preserve someone else. I'd do this for a lot of people, actually, not just my top - but it's very unlikely I'd ever be in a situation where I'd have the ability to do something like that.
 
Cirrus said:
No limits? What if your Dom asked you to kill for him? What if he asked you to do or allow him to do something that would permanently harm you? Say...amputate a limb? Would you have limits then?
We've had this question before, a few times. From the M thread, page 1:
Cheyenne said:
If your master tells you to do something that is against your normal moral code, do you do it? What if he tells you to lie, cheat or steal for him? Do you trust that he has your best interest at heart and just do it? Is the risk of jail enough to keep a slave from doing what a master commands?

What about something that isn't necessarily illegal, but just not very nice? For example, what if you knew someone was gay but had not come out of the closet. If your master told you to do it, would you "out" that person to the world? What if it was an affair you knew about? Anything that might hurt someone if others knew it in their real life. Would you announce that info to people in RL at the risk of hurting the people involved if your master told you to do so? What about if he TOLD you to do it to hurt them on purpose?
And my answer, an answer that was as applicable to that question then as i think it is to this question now:
Originally posted by cymbidia
Good questions, Chey. They boil down to, i think, “Are you still a person inside a D/s relationship?”

My short answer is this: i’ll go to jail for no one and i’ll not hurt anyone else unnecessarily. I give my trust, sub to Dom/me, only very grudgingly.

I cannot imagine being sub to someone who would ask me to do the kinds of things you’ve outlined. In my life, those to whom i have offered my full submission, those i have called “Master” or “Mistress”, are few indeed. There have been many more along the way that i learned from, that i used (in a positive way) to grow in different aspects of my understanding of myself, but there was no real bond between us beyond that of normal intimacy; i was not collared, in our terms. Hence i was always free to think and act for myself. And i’d never act so irresponsibly as that which you’ve outlined.

Within a collared bond, like the one i share with my Master now, i am not free to disobey what he tells me to do, illegal or “just not very nice”. But Chey? I’ve picked my Master very carefully. I know his morals are much like mine. I trust he will never ask me to do that which would be illegal or not nice. Such is not his way, not mine.

I’m very aware of the ramifications involved in choosing who i will call “Master” or “Mistress”. There are those, sadly, who are not. There are those who may, for whatever reason, find themselves in the situation you describe. These words are for them.

A Dom/me has, as his highest duty to you, the absolute obligation not to damage you in a bad way. If he wants something from you that is just **wrong** for you, your obligation is to talk to him about your fears. You must always be open to him about what you’re feeling, needing, afraid of. He cannot protect you, guide you, and lead you both to a fuller expression of that which lies between you without your honesty and trust.

If you tell him that you are afraid of doing a thing and he insists that you must, you must ask yourself if you **can** do whatever it is, as a person. If you cannot, not without too much agony and stress, then you may have to disobey.

If you disobey, he has the right to punish you (and not that creepy sex kinda whip-me-beat-me-make-me-cum-oh-baby-yeh crap that passes for “punishment” in so many BDSM stories either).

You may need to reconsider the wisdom of being collared to one who doesn’t appear to have your best interests at heart. Either you two are not well matched in your needs or he is testing you in a particularly bad manner. In any case, if you cannot trust him to always act with your safety and well being in mind, then perhaps it’s time to reconsider your alliance with this particular Dom/me.

Personally, i’d not do anything that crossed my personal code of honor and if my Dom asked it of me, i’d be shocked and probably begin doing some serious thinking about the advisability of continuing the relationship.

We are always still people, we submissives.
We are valuable to our Dom/mes.
Good subs are indeed precious and hard to find.
The above question-and-answer exchange was posted on July 20th, last year. We circle and circle here, in this place, trying to find meaningful answers. We come back to the same subjects all the time, maybe from slightly different angles, maybe not.

At the end of the day, we're all simply and only humans in love relationships.

We eat and drink and kiss and snore and feed the cat just like everyone else in the world. We have a slightly (or hugely) different way of expressing our devotion to our partner then the next-door-neighbors, but that's human variation for you.

Not many of us would hurt ourselves or anyone else, for any reason at all, if it was against our moral code. Bottom line.
:rose:
 
When I questioned your lack of limits I didn't mean any offense. I apologize if it came off that way.

I don't mean to imply that your Dom, or any Dom, would "lose his mind" and ask you to do something way out there. But, sex with women is one of my hard limits. Now, if my Dom were to ask me to do this, he hasn't "lost his mind"...it's something some people would do. Just not me. Some people might kill...just not me. So, if I had said no limits and my Dom brought a woman home, well, then what would I do? I said I had no limits, and while I'm not obligated to do anything...

You see where I'm going with this?

So I didn't mean anything personal, I just can't conceive of having no limits at all.
 
All of the Above LOL

I've been involved in bdsm since my early 20's and I've probably fallen into each of those catagories at some point in time. I see my involvement in bdsm as ever changing, ever evolving. I don't have an "ideal" type I want to be (stopped comparing myself to others a short while ago), but am letting myself do what the heck I want ... if that makes sense :)
 
I mentioned this "no limits/kill for me" discussion to my top and all I got in response was an evil grin! :eek:
 
etoile

i think that your way is a very intelligent and practical way of looking at the situation!
 
Wow, thank you, Titania!

I'd love to hear anybody else's thoughts too.
 
To Petrel

[P said]
I wonder is there an equivilant scale for dom/mes?? or could some bright spark on here come up with one? it seems that alot of these 'scales' and tests are aimed at the sub - as a switch I'd be interested in the other side of the equation too.
[/]


I don't see the problem applying the degrees to yield degrees of domination: You are a dom/me of degree X, in relation to a certain sub, S, if that sub S's degree of submission is X.

So if your slave jones is at degree 8, of almost total submission 24/7 to, you, the master's desires and wishes, making them central to his/her life, them you are dominant to degree 8, in relation to that slave.
 
When I'm submissive, I don't have a clue where I'd fit on that scale. bouncing randomly between 1 (at my most scatterbrained) to a 6.74321798412...... (crap. Calculator ran out of places.) (at my most committed and focused).

I've got limits, beyond the basics (no kids, pets, former food or former people, that sort of thing) But I don't have much clue what they are. I've never been pushed anywhere near them.

Oh, wait. Just thought of one. Humiliation.

No way, no how. My sense of self-esteem was too hard won, and the scars (emotional) of my life till now are way too tender for any kind of humiliation play to be a possibility.

Other than that 99 Farenheit <sp?>. (I've always run a little warmer than what is considered normal) :D
 
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