You, me, God, and the universe.

[Ishmael]

Let's see where this goes.

Me;

I'm an engineer by training and trade. I spent the better part of my working career designing instruments that would prove, or disprove, the theories of theoretical physicists. (Which makes me a Leonard of sorts and as much as I reject that stereotype, it's true.)

Disclaimer;

I have no use for religion of any sort. The very notion that some insignificant biological entity can intimately know the mind of a creator is an incredulous leap. And just as incredulous is the notion that an entity that can create the universe is somehow dependent on me worshiping it.

Atheists;

You don't know shit. "There is no God" is a hollow declaration. A negative cannot be proven. And while the 'believers' have a chance at being right, you have none at all.

The Meat;

The Big Bang Theory has been pretty well established. The measured facts support the theory. We have even measured the extent of the known universe and its point of origin. The point here is that it had a beginning, an origin, a creation if you will. How that came about is a mystery and will probably remain so for a great time to come. And the root of that problem is that we cannot pierce the veil of time. How do you measure what happened before time ever existed? We also know that the known universe will be snuffed out at some time. The 'How' is still an ongoing, and heated, debate. The 'If' isn't part of the discussion.

At this point it is interesting to note that if you bother to pick up a Bible and read Genesis the order of events concerning 'creation' is spot on science wise. The order of events are quite logical. All else is subject to discussion, a discussion I'm not particularly interested in participating in.

E=MC2 is still the rule. Some years ago Hawking put forth a proposition that (E=MC2) - x. x being some undefined variable. He was immediately challenged and ultimately forced to go back and reevaluate, and then retract, his assertion. In other words he was proposing that information (either energy or matter) was lost somehow. An assertion that flew in the face of observable and measurable data.

You, I, all life, follows an ever repeating pattern. We come into existence (birth), we respire, convert mass into energy, expel the residue of that process (shit), replicate (procreate, divide, fuck, whatever), and expire (die). But in that process of converting mass into energy we radiate that energy in the form of electrical waves. Waves that propagate throughout the universe forever. Information.

Back to God;

If you accept the notion of the 'Big Bang', then you are forced to accept, or at least wonder, that there just might be a creative force out there. Call it anything you want, God is as good a term as any, but it was an act of creation nonetheless. So while you may deny the existence of a 'God', you are still left with trying to explain the act of creation. It's an obstacle the atheist can't overcome.

Back to Religion;

While I categorically reject any form of religion (a term that implies a doctrine and an assumption that someone knows the mind of God), I have spent a lifetime consuming everything I could get my hands on regarding religious doctrines. Some are religions that most of you never heard of. There is a thread of commonality that runs though virtually all of them. That thread is the ethics required for an orderly society. So while, at least from my perspective, religion is a sham, that is not to say that many of the lessons contained therein are not worthy of consideration.

Information;

Everything that has ever been thought by any living (or maybe not living?) entity from the time of the Big Bang is out there. I think that at times every individual can tap into a shadow of that Universal Mind. Quantum physics dictates that the most basic particles are inseparable. Yet at the same time physics says that the entire universe began with a particle/ball of energy infinitesimally small of of infinitesimal energy. No matter which, it was just one thing. The implication is that all of the universe is just one part of a whole, inseparable. "Desiderata" begins to sound like an eerie reflection of science as we know it today.

Faith/Belief;

Whatever winds your clock as long and that Faith/belief doesn't require you to inflict your faith/beliefs on others or cause them harm.

Ishmael

 

[irksomesauce]

Do you have a time estimate for any of that to ever find a wall to stick to?




http://www.findelahistoria.com/web/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Thanks-For-Sharing.png

 

[about_average]

Let's see where this goes.

Me;

I'm an engineer by training and trade. I spent the better part of my working career designing instruments that would prove, or disprove, the theories of theoretical physicists. (Which makes me a Leonard of sorts and as much as I reject that stereotype, it's true.)

Disclaimer;

I have no use for religion of any sort. The very notion that some insignificant biological entity can intimately know the mind of a creator is an incredulous leap. And just as incredulous is the notion that an entity that can create the universe is somehow dependent on me worshiping it.

Atheists;

You don't know shit. "There is no God" is a hollow declaration. A negative cannot be proven. And while the 'believers' have a chance at being right, you have none at all.

I stopped reading here, at yet more of your muddled thinking.
A perfect example of why you could never have been a theoretical physicist.

 

[hashtag4]

I stopped reading here, at yet more of your muddled thinking.
A perfect example of why you could never have been a theoretical physicist.

I wouldn't be able to comment on the quantum physics part (physics were never my forte) but personally, I enjoyed the rest of his comments.

 

[hashtag4]

Wow. Such an interesting topic and read. I broke it in parts because that way is easier for me to follow the discussions that way.

.I have no use for religion of any sort. The very notion that some insignificant biological entity can intimately know the mind of a creator is an incredulous leap. And just as incredulous is the notion that an entity that can create the universe is somehow dependent on me worshiping it...

I have a lot of respect for those who practice religion the right way, but I'm just as put off by the religious biggots and judgy people.

I haven't thought about them like that before (in terms of their grandiosity) but that actually describes things much better.

..So while, at least from my perspective, religion is a sham, .

I wouldn't say that religion is a sham. Those who misuse it in order to control or influence people (the institutional part of it) made it so, unfortunately.

..There is a thread of commonality that runs though virtually all of them.
That thread is the ethics required for an orderly society.
So while, at least from my perspective, religion is a sham, that is not to say that many of the lessons contained therein are not worthy of consideration..

Exactly. Even for those who take the Bible literally and believe that "God loves you and is watching" and so on, there is that part of it that helps one follow a moral code of living.

.At this point it is interesting to note that if you bother to pick up a Bible and read Genesis the order of events concerning 'creation' is spot on science wise. The order of events are quite logical. All else is subject to discussion, a discussion I'm not particularly interested in participating in.
..

Wow. I didn't know that.

..Atheists;
-- You don't know shit. "There is no God" is a hollow declaration. A negative cannot be proven. And while the 'believers' have a chance at being right, you have none at all..

Exactly

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

As an Atheist, I actually like my chances of being right.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I like that scene in Seven Samurai...

An old woman was wailing about her life, wanting to die and afraid to because things might be worse on the other side. One of the true samurai comforted her assuring her, that yes, it would be better on the other side. Kickuchio, the son of a farmer, asks him, "How you know? Been there?"

 

[KindofHere]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[screwulibz]

You dont believe in G-D?

HA!

Neither does Steven Hawking

to which G-D says

HOW IS THE CHAIR I MADE FOR YOU?

 

[screwulibz]

As an Atheist, I actually like my chances of being right.

I dont believe you

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I dont believe you

I don't believe in you...

 

[ishtat]

Let's see where this goes.

Back to Religion;

I have spent a lifetime consuming everything I could get my hands on regarding religious doctrines. Some are religions that most of you never heard of. There is a thread of commonality that runs though virtually all of them. That thread is the ethics required for an orderly society. So while, at least from my perspective, religion is a sham, that is not to say that many of the lessons contained therein are not worthy of consideration.

Ishmael

And the ethical concepts of so many monotheistic religions are so similar that one might imagine they would unite human beings, but the belief component just gets in the way.

I think that in ancient times religion did have some purpose as a means of understanding an incomprehensible and cruel world, but as knowledge grows the purpose and scope of religious belief steadily decreases. To an educated society it is only a sentimentalized emotional crutch for the less enlightened.

That said, I have a soft spot for the Zoroastrians as the only major monotheistic faith which hasn't caused a major war for more than 1000 years.

Finally, is there any person worse or more arrogant than a proselytizing atheist?

 

[Lancecastor]

Zoroastrianism is very cool.

I dont always carry the sword to business receptions, which has the unintended consequence of being confused with Captain Morgan.

 

[phrodeau]

(edited)

At this point it is interesting to note that if you bother to pick up a Bible and read Genesis the order of events concerning 'creation' is spot on science wise. The order of events are quite logical. All else is subject to discussion, a discussion I'm not particularly interested in participating in.

Day Three - plants and trees are fruitful and multiply.

Day Four - the sun is created.

 

[Adre]

Day Three - plants and trees are fruitful and multiply.

Day Four - the sun is created.

Well, he does belong to the Science Bad party.

 

[Pakalea345]

Boxed wine and lit don't mix. At least he didn't post nudes.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Back to God;

If you accept the notion of the 'Big Bang', then you are forced to accept, or at least wonder, that there just might be a creative force out there. Call it anything you want, God is as good a term as any, but it was an act of creation nonetheless. So while you may deny the existence of a 'God', you are still left with trying to explain the act of creation. It's an obstacle the atheist can't overcome.

This is the whole of the unresolved issue; whether "creation" of the material world as we know it has an equally natural origin or a "supernatural" one.

No atheist worth his intellect asserts that there is no God. He or she simply asserts there is insufficient evidence of a God.

Meanwhile, some practitioners of some religions cite evidences of God they nonetheless find persuasive.

IF creation is the product of a supernatural sentient entity, it does not rationally follow that an expectation of worship from that entity on the part of certain elements of "his" creation is itself irrational or frivolous. Like creation itself, the entity and the laws by which he operates or imposes simply IS. There is little point in condemning religion if there remains the chance that "religion" is quite possibly derived from or demanded by a creator.

We don't know. But evidences for both propositions exist. The biggest problem for deists is that their evidences inevitably deal with the mind and motivations of God, and the documentary record of any such oral or information exchange between deity and human subject, particularly those occurring in ancient history, are appropriately suspect.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Kickuchio, the son of a farmer

The name is spelled Kikuchiyo

http://33.media.tumblr.com/6c661b19e35a46c0c031c06276963499/tumblr_nhg9cf9GLr1s2wio8o1_500.gif

yeeeeesh

 

[wistfall1]

Let's see where this goes.

The Meat;

The Big Bang Theory has been pretty well established. The measured facts support the theory. We have even measured the extent of the known universe and its point of origin. The point here is that it had a beginning, an origin, a creation if you will. How that came about is a mystery and will probably remain so for a great time to come. And the root of that problem is that we cannot pierce the veil of time. How do you measure what happened before time ever existed? We also know that the known universe will be snuffed out at some time. The 'How' is still an ongoing, and heated, debate. The 'If' isn't part of the discussion.</Quote>

Since we don't know, it has been theorized that there are multiple universes (baby universes?>. Since it's all speculative, this is as good a theory as any at this point, one that many respectable physicists considerer worthy of consideration. Since the Universe is said to be expanding (galaxy wise) faster than the speed of known light, much else may prove speculative too. Perhaps we'll find that galaxy clusters will continue (but for how long????).

Maybe time is relative to our Universe (only, as far as we are concerned). Maybe, everything considered, the Universe(s) is/are eternal.

Black holes? Did all of that really disappear, or only seem to do so. Maybe making more baby universes? So many mysteries, so much to wonder at.

<quote> At this point it is interesting to note that if you bother to pick up a Bible and read Genesis the order of events concerning 'creation' is spot on science wise. The order of events are quite logical. All else is subject to discussion, a discussion I'm not particularly interested in participating in.</quote>

You did bring it up, so... How about the so-called "firmament"? Are waters really help up there in abeyance ready to be dumped whenever? And speaking of water "up there", water in abundance has been found in vast stretches of our known Universe, and far, far from us. Just an interesting point.

<quote>You, I, all life, follows an ever repeating pattern. We come into existence (birth), we respire, convert mass into energy, expel the residue of that process (shit), replicate (procreate, divide, fuck, whatever), and expire (die). But in that process of converting mass into energy we radiate that energy in the form of electrical waves. Waves that propagate throughout the universe forever. Information.</quote>

Existence, as we know it now, yes, albeit in very modified forms. Let's face it, the only thing that is the same in us versus how we were way back when is DNA nucleotides. We are definitely much changed though (no matter what Fundamentalists say).

Also, more speculation, though quite reasonable, is our 20 amino acids by which as we know on earth is composed: The Murchison meteorite that fell is Australia has proven to have many more that our 20 amino acids (which includes quite a few of those we're presently familiar with).

<quote>Back to God;

If you accept the notion of the 'Big Bang', then you are forced to accept, or at least wonder, that there just might be a creative force out there. Call it anything you want, God is as good a term as any, but it was an act of creation nonetheless. So while you may deny the existence of a 'God', you are still left with trying to explain the act of creation. It's an obstacle the atheist can't overcome.</quote>

Or maybe we are a part of the creative force. We are a society of cells, and cells are made of molecules, which are made of atoms (as is everything else in our physical world as far as we know). Atoms do have a very much extended life, and are continually reusable/recyclable, and able to be modified by fusion, or broken up into more constituent parts.

<quote>Back to Religion;

While I categorically reject any form of religion (a term that implies a doctrine and an assumption that someone knows the mind of God), I have spent a lifetime consuming everything I could get my hands on regarding religious doctrines. Some are religions that most of you never heard of. There is a thread of commonality that runs though virtually all of them. That thread is the ethics required for an orderly society. So while, at least from my perspective, religion is a sham, that is not to say that many of the lessons contained therein are not worthy of consideration.</quote>

If common equals control. Otherwise, yes, it's a sham. Zoroastrianism is interesting. As far as I've been able to determine, it could have started at some time similar to Judaism, Christiani9ty, Mithraism, or sometime in the far distant past. Wish we had more verifiable information about it.

<quote>Information;

I think that at times every individual can tap into a shadow of that Universal Mind.</quote>

Maybe we can tap into some of it. What we've called "junk" DNA isn't really junk, but older, but modified parts of our (humanities) previous self, AKA, evolutionary self.

Disclaimer: I'm just a curious student, not to be taken seriously, but if you find any part or parts of what I say interesting, hope you look into it and satisfy your curiosity.

Thank you, Ishmael. An interesting thread.

Peace

w

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

I don't find it as interesting as nearly as much as proof positive of the natural wisdom of why the Constitution originally dictated that Electors elect the President and state legislatures elect their own U.S. Senators.

 

[RobDownSouth]

T
No atheist worth his intellect asserts that there is no God. He or she simply asserts there is insufficient evidence of a God.

Derp!

 

[Ralf913]

Derp!

What was before the Big Bang?

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Creation stories are irrelevant; the true purpose of religion is to move a given society forward in such a way it is able to dominate competing tribes/societies. An obvious example is why most religions aren't fans of homos. Why? No reproduction means the tribe across the way will outbreed and conquer you. Chastity before marriage? Keeps the outcome of sex - babies - in a stable environment.

 

[Ms_Ann]

What was before the Big Bang?

Pregame broadcast...

 

[Hard_Rom]

What was before the Big Bang?

What's north of the north pole?

Time did not exist before the Big Bang. So there is no before.

In 2150 who shall be God?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsD2Nku6Zqo

Mithras slew the bull or did Moses overthrown the worship of the Golden Calf.

Did the first cause have to be intelligent?

What is the difference between myth and religion? Why does some foreign religion take precedent over the religion of the native northern Europeans from which most of us are descended?

Muspell
The first world to exist was Muspell, a place of light and heat whose flames are so hot that those who are not native to that land cannot endure it.
Surt sits at Muspell's border, guarding the land with a flaming sword. At the end of the world he will vanquish all the gods and burn the whole world with fire.

Ginnungagap and Niflheim
Beyond Muspell lay the great and yawning void named Ginnungagap, and beyond Ginnungagap lay the dark, cold realm of Niflheim.
Ice, frost, wind, rain and heavy cold emanated from Niflheim, meeting in Ginnungagap the soft air, heat, light, and soft air from Muspell.

Ymir
Where heat and cold met appeared thawing drops, and this running fluid grew into a giant frost ogre named Ymir.

Frost ogres
Ymir slept, falling into a sweat. Under his left arm there grew a man and a woman. And one of his legs begot a son with the other. This was the beginning of the frost ogres.

Audhumla
Thawing frost then became a cow called Audhumla. Four rivers of milk ran from her teats, and she fed Ymir.

Buri, Bor, and Bestla
The cow licked salty ice blocks. After one day of licking, she freed a man's hair from the ice. After two days, his head appeared. On the third day the whole man was there. His name was Buri, and he was tall, strong, and handsome.
Buri begot a son named Bor, and Bor married Bestla, the daughter of a giant.

Odin, Vili, and Vé
Bor and Bestla had three sons: Odin was the first, Vili the second, and Vé the third.
It is believed that Odin, in association with his brothers, is the ruler of heaven and earth. He is the greatest and most famous of all men.

The death of Ymir
Odin, Vili, and Vé killed the giant Ymir.
When Ymir fell, there issued from his wounds such a flood of blood, that all the frost ogres were drowned, except for the giant Bergelmir who escaped with his wife by climbing onto a lur [a hollowed-out tree trunk that could serve either as a boat or a coffin]. From them spring the families of frost ogres.

Earth, trees, and mountains
The sons of Bor then carried Ymir to the middle of Ginnungagap and made the world from him. From his blood they made the sea and the lakes; from his flesh the earth; from his hair the trees; and from his bones the mountains. They made rocks and pebbles from his teeth and jaws and those bones that were broken.

Dwarfs
Maggots appeared in Ymir's flesh and came to life. By the decree of the gods they acquired human understanding and the appearance of men, although they lived in the earth and in rocks.

Sky, clouds, and stars
From Ymir's skull the sons of Bor made the sky and set it over the earth with its four sides. Under each corner they put a dwarf, whose names are East, West, North, and South.
The sons of Bor flung Ymir's brains into the air, and they became the clouds.

Then they took the sparks and burning embers that were flying about after they had been blown out of Muspell, and placed them in the midst of Ginnungagap to give light to heaven above and earth beneath. To the stars they gave appointed places and paths.

The earth was surrounded by a deep sea. The sons of Bor gave lands near the sea to the families of giants for their settlements.

Midgard
To protect themselves from the hostile giants, the sons of Bor built for themselves an inland stonghold, using Ymir's eyebrows. This stonghold they named Midgard.

Ask and Embla
While walking along the sea shore the sons of Bor found two trees, and from them they created a man and a woman.
Odin gave the man and the woman spirit and life. Vili gave them understanding and the power of movement. Vé gave them clothing and names. The man was named Ask [Ash] and the woman Embla [Elm?]. From Ask and Embla have sprung the races of men who lived in Midgard.

Asgard
In the middle of the world the sons of Bor built for themselves a stronghold named Asgard, called Troy by later generations. The gods and their kindred lived in Asgard, and many memorable events have happened there.
In Asgard was a great hall named Hlidskjálf. Odin sat there on a high seat. From there he could look out over the whole world and see what everyone was doing. He understood everything that he saw.

Odin, Frigg, and the Æsir
Odin married Frigg, the daughter of Fjörgvin. From this family has come all the kindred that inhabited ancient Asgard and those kingdoms that belonged to it. Members of this family are called the Æsir, and they are all divinities. This must be the reason why Odin is called All-Father. He is the father of all the gods and men and of everything that he and his power created.

Thor
The earth was Odin's daughter and his wife as well. By her he had his first son, Thor. Might and strength were Thor's characteristics. By these he dominates every living creature.

Bifröst
As all informed people know, the gods built a bridge from earth to heaven called Bifröst. Some call it the rainbow. It has three colors and is very strong, made with more skill and cunning than other structures. But strong as it is, it will break when the sons of Muspell ride out over it. The gods are not to blame that this structure will then break. Bifröst is a good bridge, but there is nothing in this world that can be relied on when the sons of Muspell are on the warpath.

Yggdrasil
The chief sanctuary of the gods is by the ash tree Yggdrasil. There they hold their daily court. Yggdrasil is the best and greatest of all trees. Its branches spread out over the whole world and reach up over heaven.

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation.html