You can't handle the truth! Or can you?

[Keroin]

Sorry, long ramble ahead.

This question arises from my frustration with people who insist they want you to be honest with them but actually do not. In the realm of writing and critique groups, (both online and real life), this has been an ongoing issue for me.

I have a dear friend, a copy editor, who constantly raves about my writing ability and tells me how much she wishes she could write like me and yet whenever she submits a story to me for a critique she will only ever incorporate about 5% of my suggestions. She also gets really hurt if she feels I do not like her work – and I’m so, so careful about how I word my critiques, with her. My writer’s group is now preparing our annual chapbook and she has selected me as her editor, again…*sigh*. There’s no polite way out of this situation and she has done so much copy editing for me that I feel it’s only fair to give back but, nevertheless, I’m dreading this.

Also, generally, in life, I’ve found that people will frequently ask for advice only to then, once the advice is given, offer a hundred reasons why the advice cannot be applied or pay lip service to the advice and then ignore it.

Why is this?

When I ask someone for the truth, I mean it. However painful it may be, (and I usually assume the truth will be painful), if knowing the truth is important then it’s worth the discomfort. If I come to someone for advice, in real life, I do so because I feel they have some experience or wisdom I am lacking.

I have a stylistic editor who consistently shreds every piece of work I send his way. I love it. (And I hate it, if you know what I mean). We make jokes about me burning him in effigy but his help is invaluable and I credit his suggestions with getting me published and just, generally, improving my skill at the craft.

Can you handle the truth? Have you ever asked for honesty and regretted it? Have you ever been asked for honesty and then regretted giving it? If you ask for advice, how likely are you to seriously consider it? If you don’t take advice you’re given, why not?

 

[wicked woman]

Have you ever been asked for honesty and then regretted giving it? If you ask for advice, how likely are you to seriously consider it? If you don’t take advice you’re given, why not?

Your questions about asking for advice and not taking it reminds me of myself and my Dad when I was younger. In many situations I value my Dad's opinion. Because of that I would ask him for advice. After many years, I realized that though I truly wanted my Dad's input, and listened to and weighed his advice, I rarely followed it. Why? Because in the end, my Dad doesn't know the totality of who I am. I compartmentalize my life. When I considered his advice, in conjunction with all the other information I had, I usually decided what was best for me was to follow another path. I wasn't always right, but I was more right than wrong.

What made me realize this was having a girlfriend who often asked my advice on matters but never...I mean never...followed my advice. Knowing that I truly appreciated my Dad's advice, though i rarely followed it, comforted me that my advice/opinion was of value to my friend. What I realized about her was that she was usually pretty sure about what she wanted to do about any situation. The reason she asked my advice was because she used me as a sounding board, to make sure she hadn't left any idea unturned that might affect her decision and that in asking for my advice, I'd make sure all of the possibilities were addressed. And like me, her decisions were usually the right one for her.

But I still remember the discussion about whether she should wear a traditional white wedding dress. I was divorced by this time but bottom line advised that she should. When I attended her wedding, she looked lovely in her navy skirt suit.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I never expect people to take my advice. I look at giving advice (when asked for it) like giving a gift. Once it is given it is theirs to do with as they want. They can heed it, ignore it, collect more advice or combine it with others. It is up to them. When I am in a situation where I need advice I usually ask several people and then make my own decision from there. I assume others do the same.

As far as being honest...that depends. I have a dear friend who I have known for over 15 years. We confide about just about everything. She knows I will be honest with her, and she will be the same with me. We are kind, but honest. It's hard for me to be painfully honest with others. But if they ask for a truly honest opinion I will give it.

 

[Keroin]

Your questions about asking for advice and not taking it reminds me of myself and my Dad when I was younger. In many situations I value my Dad's opinion. Because of that I would ask him for advice. After many years, I realized that though I truly wanted my Dad's input, and listened to and weighed his advice, I rarely followed it. Why? Because in the end, my Dad doesn't know the totality of who I am. I compartmentalize my life. When I considered his advice, in conjunction with all the other information I had, I usually decided what was best for me was to follow another path. I wasn't always right, but I was more right than wrong.

What made me realize this was having a girlfriend who often asked my advice on matters but never...I mean never...followed my advice. Knowing that I truly appreciated my Dad's advice, though i rarely followed it, comforted me that my advice/opinion was of value to my friend. What I realized about her was that she was usually pretty sure about what she wanted to do about any situation. The reason she asked my advice was because she used me as a sounding board, to make sure she hadn't left any idea unturned that might affect her decision and that in asking for my advice, I'd make sure all of the possibilities were addressed. And like me, her decisions were usually the right one for her.

But I still remember the discussion about whether she should wear a traditional white wedding dress. I was divorced by this time but bottom line advised that she should. When I attended her wedding, she looked lovely in her navy skirt suit.

Good points here and yet I'm still puzzled. Asking for an opinion and asking for advice are two different things, to me. There's an inference, when someone seeks advice, that they require assistance, that they really don't know what they want. At least that's how I see it.

When offering personal advice, I always seriously consider the facts, the person, my biases, etc. In short, I take it seriously. Professionally, I take my responsibility even more seriously. When critiquing a story, I devote a significant amount of time to reading, re-reading and commenting. When I do this, only to have the author blow off every suggestion or offer me excuse after excuse, annoys me. Why waste my time if you have no intention of listening to me?

I have a couple of friends like the one you spoke of, who never, ever take any advice offered. I used to tear out my hair about it, now I just find ways to avoid answering their questions.

 

[Keroin]

I never expect people to take my advice. I look at giving advice (when asked for it) like giving a gift. Once it is given it is theirs to do with as they want. They can heed it, ignore it, collect more advice or combine it with others. It is up to them. When I am in a situation where I need advice I usually ask several people and then make my own decision from there. I assume others do the same.

As far as being honest...that depends. I have a dear friend who I have known for over 15 years. We confide about just about everything. She knows I will be honest with her, and she will be the same with me. We are kind, but honest. It's hard for me to be painfully honest with others. But if they ask for a truly honest opinion I will give it.

I suppose I ask for advice so rarely that when I do ask it is a serious matter, so I really do listen carefully and consider the suggestions I'm given. No, I don't always follow the advice I'm given but I'd say most of the time I do, at least in part.

I also find it tough to be brutally honest, even when asked, mostly because people usually react so badly to it.

 

[Recidiva]

Giving advice isn't a contract, it's a gift.

Good advice or not, I think it's a privilege to be asked to give it. It's not your responsibility to "enforce" that all advice is taken.

Sometimes advice also needs to germinate and be reiterated many times before it's heard or followed. Getting in a vote can bear fruit much later than you expect. Or it can fall on deaf ears or barren ground.

But the act of giving good advice is a bit like loving someone. You do it because you care, not because someone else is obligated to return it. It's a good work.

I think teaching is a privilege and learning is hard. But giving of yourself doesn't need a one for one payback, that's frustrating.

Wanting honesty and liking honesty are two different things, separate them from each other and that might help do some compartmentalizing of cause versus effect. You're not causing an effect, you're suggesting a course of action and it's good for someone to have that blueprint somewhere in their head if the advice is good.

 

[Keroin]

Giving advice isn't a contract, it's a gift.

Good advice or not, I think it's a privilege to be asked to give it. It's not your responsibility to "enforce" that all advice is taken.

Sometimes advice also needs to germinate and be reiterated many times before it's heard or followed. Getting in a vote can bear fruit much later than you expect. Or it can fall on deaf ears or barren ground.

But the act of giving good advice is a bit like loving someone. You do it because you care, not because someone else is obligated to return it. It's a good work.

I think teaching is a privilege and learning is hard. But giving of yourself doesn't need a one for one payback, that's frustrating.

Wanting honesty and liking honesty are two different things, separate them from each other and that might help do some compartmentalizing of cause versus effect. You're not causing an effect, you're suggesting a course of action and it's good for someone to have that blueprint somewhere in their head if the advice is good.

Hm, yes, I see what you're saying. Well put.

My gut feeling, many times, is that when people claim to want advice what they really want is attention. I'm not suggesting this is wrong but I do feel it's a bit disingenuous. Maybe I'm coming too much from my perspective? Maybe I'm expecting others to behave as I would, which is irrational, really.

I think, perhaps, I'm not cut out to be a teacher. LOL. Or maybe I'm just too male and take some things too literally?

ADDED: I'd really like some men to weigh in on this. I'm curious if there is a difference in the male/female perspective.

 

[midwestyankee]

If you get a good answer to this, please let me know. I'd like to incorporate it into my next long-term relationship if I can. For the last 30 years my wife has asked my advice on matters regarding her teaching and has ignored virtually all of it. I think I have a pretty good handle on who she is but I'm still bewildered about this one bit of behavior.

 

[Recidiva]

Hm, yes, I see what you're saying. Well put.

My gut feeling, many times, is that when people claim to want advice what they really want is attention. I'm not suggesting this is wrong but I do feel it's a bit disingenuous. Maybe I'm coming too much from my perspective? Maybe I'm expecting others to behave as I would, which is irrational, really.

I think, perhaps, I'm not cut out to be a teacher. LOL. Or maybe I'm just too male and take some things too literally?

Well, yes. If you have patience with the gap (true, sometimes permanent) between hearing the truth and enacting the truth, it might make it a less frustrating process. Just think of how hard it is to say "I want to quit smoking" and actually doing it. You can advise a lot, but action is the hardest part.

I think you're right. There are some people that ask my advice but absolutely refuse to hear it or take it. They "know" it's right, intellectually, but they can't put it into action. I'll say it several times and find as many ways as I can to express it, until I'm sure they have the information, they just can't do it - yet. But at least they know someone listens, someone cares, and eventually, someone (me!) will tell them that they know the answer, they just can't do it yet, and they probably need to find some other motivating factor (therapy? education? practice? meditation? time? boot to the ass?) There is a point that words end. But the words have their place and can be repeated several times without feeling like it's a waste of time.

I do take being asked for advice as seriously as you do, I just let go of the results and ultimately do say "I'm not going to talk about it, because right now you need to choose a course of action and start doing. The rest is a waste of time if you already have the map but you're not going to take a step in any direction."

I tend not to make attention-seeking friends for that reason. I have very limited capacity for theory without practice. It's okay to express that too, without being a bad guy. Because that's true too.

 

[Keroin]

If you get a good answer to this, please let me know. I'd like to incorporate it into my next long-term relationship if I can. For the last 30 years my wife has asked my advice on matters regarding her teaching and has ignored virtually all of it. I think I have a pretty good handle on who she is but I'm still bewildered about this one bit of behavior.

LOL.

I had to learn to communicate properly with the men in my life. I wouldn't necessarily ask for advice but I would bring up things that were bothering me. Thankfully, I learned quickly that men tend to be solution-oriented and thus, I would preface my speech with, "I don't need an answer or solution to what I'm about to tell you, I just want to talk it out so that I can understand the problem better."

I was astounded how well that worked! He doesn't feel frustrated that I won't take his suggested solutions and I don't feel frustrated that he keeps trying to solve my problems for me, and I get a sounding board to help solidify my ideas. Win, win, win.

 

[Keroin]

Well, yes. If you have patience with the gap (true, sometimes permanent) between hearing the truth and enacting the truth, it might make it a less frustrating process. Just think of how hard it is to say "I want to quit smoking" and actually doing it. You can advise a lot, but action is the hardest part.

I think you're right. There are some people that ask my advice but absolutely refuse to hear it or take it. They "know" it's right, intellectually, but they can't put it into action. I'll say it several times and find as many ways as I can to express it, until I'm sure they have the information, they just can't do it - yet. But at least they know someone listens, someone cares, and eventually, someone (me!) will tell them that they know the answer, they just can't do it yet, and they probably need to find some other motivating factor (therapy? education? practice? meditation? time? boot to the ass?) There is a point that words end. But the words have their place and can be repeated several times without feeling like it's a waste of time.

I do take being asked for advice as seriously as you do, I just let go of the results and ultimately do say "I'm not going to talk about it, because right now you need to choose a course of action and start doing. The rest is a waste of time if you already have the map but you're not going to take a step in any direction."

I tend not to make attention-seeking friends for that reason. I have very limited capacity for theory without practice. It's okay to express that too, without being a bad guy. Because that's true too.

You are a better, and infinitely more patient, woman than I, Miss R.

*Bows respectfully*

BTW, I really like the part in bold. I may start stealing that.

 

[Recidiva]

You are a better, and infinitely more patient, woman than I, Miss R.

*Bows respectfully*

BTW, I really like the part in bold. I may start stealing that.

Compliment score!

*immodest end zone dance*

Steal away!

 

[Betticus]

I don't think people really want the truth all of the time. I think of it more as a matter of you getting what you want/need and adjusting the "truth" to create a win/win situation if at all possible.

For example, if someone.. a friend spent all day making some special dish for dinner, poured a lot of energy and time into it and at dinner you thought it was merely ok... she asks if you like it ... what do you do?

You can tell her the hard truth, that it's not anything special or.....

Factor into the dish your friendship, add in the hard work and the thought that went into it, imagine just how badly she wanted to make something special for you and then once you perform your calculations, add the value of all of those things tell her not just about the taste but how it made you feel to be the recipient of all of that care, thought and time.

It's not lying at all, it is incorporating hard to quantify factors into your truth.

That may just be the most pleasing, satisfying meal you've had since back when your grandmother used to make your fav pie. I don't think it's something that everyone would be able to appreciate, the flavors are too subtle and refined for a more course palate but that you loved it.

 

[Xelebes]

Consider this: 50 percent of your suggestions are of no use to them because they completely conflict with who they are.

50% of those that remain (25%) are situationally inconvenient that simply won't work with what they are doing.

50% of those that remain (12.5%) are just inconvenient to her on a whim.

50% of those that remain (6.25%) are considered but maybe forgotten.

Those that remain, 6.25%, are considered and implemented.

 

[Homburg]

LOL.

I had to learn to communicate properly with the men in my life. I wouldn't necessarily ask for advice but I would bring up things that were bothering me. Thankfully, I learned quickly that men tend to be solution-oriented and thus, I would preface my speech with, "I don't need an answer or solution to what I'm about to tell you, I just want to talk it out so that I can understand the problem better."

This is a gender bias that drives me insane. I can listen to problems. I can commiserate. I cannot stand idly by and allow problems to fester. I appreciate your honesty here, but, in my life, I would rather the woman saying this to me would just go talk to a woman that would listen and not try to fix. And I don't mean that in a rude way! I am just very much a fixer.

Fortunately, everyone that knows me, knows this. People rarely come to me to just rattle on and kvetch. It happens, but usually it is only my very, very good friends, and the comment is prefaced with "I'm going to rant. Nod and smile, but don't worry if I don't make sense." Loud, cranky ranting ensues, and commiseration follows. That is different. It is usually a non-solvable issue, the fellow in question knows it is non-solvable, and wants someone safe to holler at. I'm cool with that, and take the hollering very well. Hell, a solid 30% of the relationship I have with my best friend in the world is based on the fact that we can holler at each other when needed and take no offense whatsoever. It's a handy thing.

When I am asked for the truth, I give it. I don't have to slap someone in the face with it, but I give the truth. More often than not, I go Socratic, and ask various questions. I would rather help someone find the truth themselves than just shove it at them, where possible. Doesn't always work, of course, but it is a better way in my experience.

As to those that don't take it? *shrug* The aforementioned best friend in the world is a good example. He'll go on about a problem, and I will give advice on how to deal with it. He counters and objects until I give up, and then eight months pass. He comes up telling me how some other mutual friend gave him the same goddamned piece of advice I gave eight months ago, and everything clicked into place. Inevitably, I remind him that I said exactly what the other person said eight months previous, and ask why he didn't take that advice then and not waste eight months. Mumbling and grouchiness ensues. It is frustrating, because I get to see him bumble about for months, and then someone else gets credit for sage wisdom.

Still, there is an obstinate, dick-headed joy in pointing out that I was right, and had been right for a long time, and making him eat his prior objections. I'm perverse like that. In the end, dick-headed joy or not, frustration or not, he's my friend. I'm going to keep answering when he asks for advice whether he takes it or not. He's my friend. It's just the way these things work.

 

[graceanne]

Honestly, I rarely ASK for the truth or opinions- K wouldn't know tact if it reached out and bit him in the ass, and he's very opinionated.

I think that when I ask for the truth, I want it and take it well.

But I'd say that everyone thinks that of themselves.

I do know that I am careful about what I ask for when I'm feeling thin skinned. If I'm feeling ugly, I won't ask 'do i look fat?' for instance.

 

[graceanne]

LOL.

I had to learn to communicate properly with the men in my life. I wouldn't necessarily ask for advice but I would bring up things that were bothering me. Thankfully, I learned quickly that men tend to be solution-oriented and thus, I would preface my speech with, "I don't need an answer or solution to what I'm about to tell you, I just want to talk it out so that I can understand the problem better."

That is because when I girl fetus' brain is developing, the speech part of the brain develops first, then the problem solving part. When a boy fetus' brain is developing the problem solving part develops first, and then the speech part.

In other words? Women problem solve by talking about the problem.

Sometimes, like when I'm really ticked, I've been known to say "I just need to vent. I do not want any input on this.'

 

[YourCaptor]

I think opinions/comments, while often asked for, get lost against the person inside knowledge.

People have so much more going on in their head, that what we say only concerns the surface, and hence opinions can often seem superficial, or under informed, or whatever. Problem with writing is its all superficial, those thoughts the author has that make the writing good just aren’t on the page.

Not sure if that makes sense, feeling incoherent.

One way to solve this issue may be to finish, send it in for comments, and don’t ever look at it or the comments until all is forgotten. Then take it out and edit.


When it comes to other things its more difficult.

Like those habits that they think are the shit but are just annoying as fuck. The ones that hit with the "pang" of Ive been doing that for the last 5 years.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

My business partner and I have it down to a fine art. He is one of my best friends and we have known each other for years. Just the other day he poured his heart out about his recent ex, who is moving away from the area. Then he says,

"So what do you think?"

"You don't already know what I think?" (I've been encouraging him to leave this parasitic person for quite a while now)

"Yeah... I suppose I do."







"You're wrong, you know."

"Why ask me then?"

J is the kind of person who usually only asks for advice so he can hear someone else play devil's advocate and then test the strength of his own resolve against their reasoning. I've come to understand this over the years but other people complain because he asks for them for advice, only to debate heatedly with it.

I'm the agony aunt of my group of friends and people trust me with a lot because I keep their confidences. Because I used to work as a nurse, I was trained to be careful with personal info and that skill has served me well in my personal life because I don't gossip idly or maliciously or slip up and mention things without meaning to like some people do. It's all locked away in the 'classified' file in the back of my head and I have to give myself clearance before I share it.

I do give out a lot of unheeded advice however, which means I've also had to hone my 'told you so' over-ride switch. One of the worst things you can do to a person when a situation has turned sour is allude to the fact you advised them against plan A beforehand. I have been guilty of this in the past and though it's more an expression of exasperated affection than an accusation, I've learned to bite my tongue.

 

[LifelongCyn]

You've got loads of good advice above from wiser heads than mine, so I have a practical suggestion re: your copy editor friend. It sounds like maybe she has a touch of the hero worship going on, so it's understandable that she might be a little crushed when you don't come back with "it's perfect, don't change a word!" This go around, perhaps ask her to tell you exactly what she's looking for from your feedback before you begin. Let her choose her level of editorial pain. Maybe she's really just looking for an attaboy from someone she admires.

 

[minx1]

I always ask for the truth, particularly in relationships.

sometimes usually in the short term, I wonder the hell why; because sometimes it hurts.

Medium to long term I am able to take it and deal with it. I prefer it that way.

 

[ecstaticsub]

This is a gender bias that drives me insane. I can listen to problems. I can commiserate. I cannot stand idly by and allow problems to fester. I appreciate your honesty here, but, in my life, I would rather the woman saying this to me would just go talk to a woman that would listen and not try to fix. And I don't mean that in a rude way! I am just very much a fixer.

<<snip>>

My Daddy is the same way. It took me a little while to figure out how to say what I felt I needed to say in a way that would not make him feel he needed to fix something. For the most part i just write it down down and email it to him. To be honest I'm not even sure he reads them, (but I think he does) It becomes a way of making him aware of a problem in my life without me asking for advice or wanting him to solve whatever issue I am having. He doesn't offer advice when I email my issues.

On the other hand if I do bring up an issue verbally then he will give me a total honest opinion whether I like it or not

 

[Homburg]

I do give out a lot of unheeded advice however, which means I've also had to hone my 'told you so' over-ride switch. One of the worst things you can do to a person when a situation has turned sour is allude to the fact you advised them against plan A beforehand. I have been guilty of this in the past and though it's more an expression of exasperated affection than an accusation, I've learned to bite my tongue.

I'm obviously enjoying it so much when I quietly bring it up that the bitching out I receive, while justified, is good natured. There are ways of being a smug dickhead that are entertaining for the person you are being a smug dickhead towards, and I'm usually funny enough to prevent them from wanting to simply strangle me.

 

[Homburg]

My Daddy is the same way. It took me a little while to figure out how to say what I felt I needed to say in a way that would not make him feel he needed to fix something. For the most part i just write it down down and email it to him. To be honest I'm not even sure he reads them, (but I think he does) It becomes a way of making him aware of a problem in my life without me asking for advice or wanting him to solve whatever issue I am having. He doesn't offer advice when I email my issues.

On the other hand if I do bring up an issue verbally then he will give me a total honest opinion whether I like it or not

I can see this. In email, there is no plaintive tone to the voice, no distress. Reduced to text, it is simply an explanation of a problem.

 

[midwestyankee]

LOL.

I had to learn to communicate properly with the men in my life. I wouldn't necessarily ask for advice but I would bring up things that were bothering me. Thankfully, I learned quickly that men tend to be solution-oriented and thus, I would preface my speech with, "I don't need an answer or solution to what I'm about to tell you, I just want to talk it out so that I can understand the problem better."

I was astounded how well that worked! He doesn't feel frustrated that I won't take his suggested solutions and I don't feel frustrated that he keeps trying to solve my problems for me, and I get a sounding board to help solidify my ideas. Win, win, win.

This was not about the usual she wants an ear and he wants to fix things dynamic. They were always legitimate calls for help. This was always a case of "I'm stumped over how to handle X circumstance in my ABC class; what would you do in this situation?" and then she would never take the suggestion.

So while I recognize that the ear vs. fix-it dynamic is common, it's not universal.